GFCI Outlets

[jaye614]

We have them installed in the bathrooms.

Should they also be installed near the kitchen sink?

thank you.

 

[tvguy]

I would say yes. When we remodeled out kitchen the building code required us to upgrade all the kitchen outlets to GFCI.

 

[Squirlz]

Yes, anything near water.

 

[sonnyjane]

Yes, anything near water.

Yup. Anything near water.

 

[jaye614]

The handyman is coming later this week; does it make a difference if I buy 15 AMP or 20 AMP?

 

[sam_gordon]

Depends on the breaker feeding that circuit. Match that. Also, depending on how the wire is run, you should only need one gfci outlet. It will protect all the outlets connected to it.

 

[bcla]

Sure. I've also installed a few for fish aquariums. I was concerned about moisture if a wire or device shorted, especially if it was a submerged heater. Dropping a small appliance in a container with water is a real issue. Ever saw the toaster in the bathtub scene from Groundhog Day?

I own a house where a GFCI breaker was installed in the breaker box. I don't know if it was strictly needed, but I added a couple of GFCI outlets to the bathrooms connected to that breaker.

 

[bcla]

Well - found this thread again and would just say that this morning my kid fried a GFCI receptacle. Our hair dryer was left plugged in (I keep on telling my wife to unplug it when she's done). My kid got soap on the mirror and thought that it could be rinsed off by tossing water at it, but with the receptacle just under it. I heard some buzzing sound and smelled something similar to melting plastic coming from the outlet. Just in case it didn't keep from electrocuting me, I was looking for something to pull off the dryer plug, and all I could find at hand was a plastic comb.

As far as I can tell the dryer still works, but water got into the receptacle. I tried doing the GFCI reset, and it did click in. However, the TEST button no longer works, indicating it's dead. The hair dryer has its own GFCI plug, which I'm letting dry out all day.

I'm going to have to go out and replace it. And the worst part is I'm probably going to need to pull out all the fuses, since my house doesn't have breakers and I don't know which one goes to the bathroom.

 

[Hikergirl]

Yes near water, have you looked at the codes in your area?

 

[hertamaniac]

I had a GFCI on an outdoor outlet that was plugged into a water softener. It had the weatherproof cover, but sometimes the horizontal rains in FL would cause just enough moisture and trip the outlet. An EE at work once told me to remove it and go with a non-GFCI.

 

[bcla]

I had a GFCI on an outdoor outlet that was plugged into a water softener. It had the weatherproof cover, but sometimes the horizontal rains in FL would cause just enough moisture and trip the outlet. An EE at work once told me to remove it and go with a non-GFCI.

Was it recoverable each time? I think my kid managed to get enough in there that it's not coming back. The test button seems to be stuck by design after tripped. Its sacrifice is duly noted.

 

[hertamaniac]

Was it recoverable each time? I think my kid managed to get enough in there that it's not coming back. The test button seems to be stuck by design after tripped. Its sacrifice is duly noted.

Yes and no. It did recover, but not every single time. You could try to use a hair dryer to remove any residual moisture, but I wouldn't have high hopes. RIP GFCI.

 

[rajak73]

I had a GFCI on an outdoor outlet that was plugged into a water softener. It had the weatherproof cover, but sometimes the horizontal rains in FL would cause just enough moisture and trip the outlet. An EE at work once told me to remove it and go with a non-GFCI.

Outdoor recept is required to be GFCI. Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, ore pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22 as applicable.

And 426 states that equipment for fixed outdoor electric deicing and snow melting equipment shall be GFCI protected.
427 is for Industrial applications only.

A lot of house recept are being required to be GFCI and AFCI protected now.

 

[bcla]

Yes and no. It did recover, but not every single time. You could try to use a hair dryer to remove any residual moisture, but I wouldn't have high hopes. RIP GFCI.

Replaced it yesterday. I happened to be at WM and all they had were Jasco (GE branded) ones and I got the one that wasn't tamper resistant. The test and reset buttons were in the same color as the body, and not black and red like some other ones. In hindsight I probably should have stopped at Home Depot for a Leviton.

The one that died was a Leviton slimline. It was 20A rated, but I don't think it really matters since it's connected to a 15A fuse. It had a sticker over the load screws warning not to use them for a direct connection to the line. I took it apart to see what was inside. It has a circuit board with a lot of capacitors and resistors. I still can't figure out how the test lockout works, because it seems to be some sort of mechanical blockage. It was actually supplying power, but I'm guessing with the test lockout it was reminding me that the GFCI no longer worked. It was also cracked at the outlet panel, so I probably should have replaced it anyways.

The Jasco GFCI outlet is kind of big though. Whoever set it up before left a ton of extra wire in the receptacle box. I had to force it in and it looks kind of weird but I think it's safe. The reset works, so I know the power is supplied correctly. It doesn't have a test lockout - I think. It does have an LED that's supposed to light up if the GFCI circuit isn't providing protection.

 

[hertamaniac]

Replaced it yesterday. I happened to be at WM and all they had were Jasco (GE branded) ones and I got the one that wasn't tamper resistant. The test and reset buttons were in the same color as the body, and not black and red like some other ones. In hindsight I probably should have stopped at Home Depot for a Leviton.

The one that died was a Leviton slimline. It was 20A rated, but I don't think it really matters since it's connected to a 15A fuse. It had a sticker over the load screws warning not to use them for a direct connection to the line. I took it apart to see what was inside. It has a circuit board with a lot of capacitors and resistors. I still can't figure out how the test lockout works, because it seems to be some sort of mechanical blockage. It was actually supplying power, but I'm guessing with the test lockout it was reminding me that the GFCI no longer worked. It was also cracked at the outlet panel, so I probably should have replaced it anyways.

The Jasco GFCI outlet is kind of big though. Whoever set it up before left a ton of extra wire in the receptacle box. I had to force it in and it looks kind of weird but I think it's safe. The reset works, so I know the power is supplied correctly. It doesn't have a test lockout - I think. It does have an LED that's supposed to light up if the GFCI circuit isn't providing protection.

I freely admit my electrical background is very limited, but whenever an amp rating was in question our engineers always evaluated wire sizing/bend radius/etc. So using a 20A rated GFCI might use a thicker gauge connection system, but to your point you are load limited to 15A.

I am not sure what the capacitors are for unless it is to re-energize the circuit board after an interrupt? They have little energy, but long cycle-life and strong power benefits (to my knowledge and testing). FWIW, I do have gobs of experience in energy storage though (extremely high amperage applications - military/automotive/micro-grid/rail).

Oh, I always use electrical tape around the pigtail connectors anytime I was working/replacing a box.

 

[bcla]

I freely admit my electrical background is very limited, but whenever an amp rating was in question our engineers always evaluated wire sizing/bend radius/etc. So using a 20A rated GFCI might use a thicker gauge connection system, but to your point you are load limited to 15A.

I am not sure what the capacitors are for unless it is to re-energize the circuit board after an interrupt? They have little energy, but long cycle-life and strong power benefits (to my knowledge and testing). FWIW, I do have gobs of experience in energy storage though (extremely high amperage applications - military/automotive/micro-grid/rail).

Oh, I always use electrical tape around the pigtail connectors anytime I was working/replacing a box.

From the looks of it what I had was pretty old. It was a lot of discrete components (ceramic capacitors and carbon resistors), when more modern ones have plastic IC packages and surface mount caps/resistors. I didn't get a great look at it because I didn't pull it completely out.

 

[hertamaniac]

From the looks of it what I had was pretty old. It was a lot of discrete components (ceramic capacitors and carbon resistors), when more modern ones have plastic IC packages and surface mount caps/resistors. I didn't get a great look at it because I didn't pull it completely out.

The board doesn't appear to have many layers, but as node sizes continue to decrease then the number of IC channels can increase (and potentially wave bye-bye to even more SMT and through-hole mounts).

In the capacitor realm, and in a previous life, we developed a CNT based capacitor. CNT = carbon nano tube (double-walled with about 100:1 aspect ratio). We laced a carbon fiber composite with CNT's to maximize surface area for electrical conductivity. We also experimented with a quartz based matrix (again, impregnated with CNT). It took us many tries to get the right chemical mix to be able to grow the CNTs for use. I really got nervous messing with Silane as it is known to be an extremely dangerous gas.

 

[rajak73]

I freely admit my electrical background is very limited, but whenever an amp rating was in question our engineers always evaluated wire sizing/bend radius/etc. So using a 20A rated GFCI might use a thicker gauge connection system, but to your point you are load limited to 15A.

a
I do believe accord to "code" you are not suppose to put a 20a rated recept on a 15a circuit. The configuration of the outlet is different. As to the GFCI, the electronics sense the current going through it, ie, using a hair dryer, black wire has 10a, the white wire should have 10a return, if the electronics sense a difference between the two lines, it trips.

 

[bcla]

The board doesn't appear to have many layers, but as node sizes continue to decrease then the number of IC channels can increase (and potentially wave bye-bye to even more SMT and through-hole mounts).

In the capacitor realm, and in a previous life, we developed a CNT based capacitor. CNT = carbon nano tube (double-walled with about 100:1 aspect ratio). We laced a carbon fiber composite with CNT's to maximize surface area for electrical conductivity. We also experimented with a quartz based matrix (again, impregnated with CNT). It took us many tries to get the right chemical mix to be able to grow the CNTs for use. I really got nervous messing with Silane as it is known to be an extremely dangerous gas.

I'm not really that great with analog electronics. I'm really a zeros and ones guy, although I sometimes have to understand about stuff like slew rates. I remember I damaged a lot of parts in the lab trying to handle a soldering iron. I'm really a desk jockey although I can handle a #2 Phillips screwdriver.

I took apart my board and got a better look at it. There is a direct connection via a resistor to the reset switch. I see a revision "89" on the board, so it's probably designed in 1989. The board has holes and every single component is going through the holes. I don't know everything on it, but there are at least 6 ceramic capacitors, a few inductors (maybe 4?) various resistors (I forgot how to read them) including one huge one, at least 5 discrete diodes (is silver on black a diode?) and one discrete BJT transistor. A chunk of the transistor seems to have blown apart.

And at the heart is a National Semiconductor LM1851N GFCI circuit.

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/405/lm1851-441901.pdf

 

[bcla]

a
I do believe accord to "code" you are not suppose to put a 20a rated recept on a 15a circuit. The configuration of the outlet is different. As to the GFCI, the electronics sense the current going through it, ie, using a hair dryer, black wire has 10a, the white wire should have 10a return, if the electronics sense a difference between the two lines, it trips.

The front plate says 20A. The front bracket (where the screws go) says "LEVITON CLASS A" on the top and "15A 125V RECEPTACLE" on the bottom. I'm guessing it's actually a 15A circuit, but the front plate is rated for 20A applications.