Florida High Speed Rail Project Stopped

[doconeill]

Passenger trains are money losers, just check out Amtrak. It is foolish to believe that a HSR would not be underwritten by taxpayers.

Passenger trains lose money because they are too limited for most people nowadays. Not all the jobs and destinations in general are in the city. It's just not convenient because we have abandoned and sort of decent public transportation. Why take a slow train/bus/cab combo where each costs a decent amount, when you can drive direct?

I know commuting into Boston via rail cost me near a car payment a month - and I still needed the car to get to the station.

I do think eventually rail systems will make a comeback, as we won't be able to afford the gas...

 

[mikelan6]

Passenger trains are money losers, just check out Amtrak. It is foolish to believe that a HSR would not be underwritten by taxpayers.

We have to start thinking about public transportation being something that does not and should not make money.

Do fire stations make money? Do police stations make money? I'm not saying that public transportation are as important as police and fire departments, but they are all for the public benefit.

 

[DCTooTall]

Another thing people usually fail to consider when complaining about how rail is a money loser w/o tax payer subsidies, is that most other forms of transportation also receive subsidies. They just may not be as direct.


Rail they tend to factor the cost of maintaining the rails, the safety systems, operation, and vehicles into total cost.


For air travel, you only tend to factor in the cost of maintaining the vehicles and operation.

Buses/cars you only factor in the cost of the vehicles and operation.


For both Air and Bus/car the safety systems are usually paid for via the government. FAA air traffic controllers, TSA, and traffic lights / traffic enforcement.

the Airports are paid for by taxpayers. (in most areas). The roads you drive on are paid for by your tax dollars.

Now both the air system and road system do receive some direct financing from those using it. Ticket surcharges (taxes), Airport gate fees, Toll roads, Gas Taxes..... But when you factor in the total cost of operating these systems, the direct income doesn't cover the total costs.

Rail (Subways, Commuter, and Long Distance) in many ways gets a bum rap in that the costs of safety monitoring and maintaining the right-of-way tend to fall directly on the rail operator so it's harder to hide any potential subsidies the government tries to provide.



Add the very obvious fact that our society has developed into a car culture that makes it harder for a rail system to serve efficiently, and you start to see some of the other problems with any major rail expansion gaining the needed support.

 

[k5jm]

We have to start thinking about public transportation being something that does not and should not make money.

Do fire stations make money? Do police stations make money? I'm not saying that public transportation are as important as police and fire departments, but they are all for the public benefit.

In wide spread communities, rail is not a viable option. In dense urban areas, I can understand using rail. Most of Florida and Texas is sprawling. There is no way that type of system can sustain itself in that environment. Police & Fire are paid in many respects by water bills, taxes, and violations/fines. There is no private solution for those types of services. There are plenty of private solutions for transportation that are more cost effective than public transportation. If any state wants HSR, it should be done by private companies and not the government.

I think making better fiscal decisions is better than throwing money into a pit that really does not serve the whole public good.

 

[Golf4food]

In wide spread communities, rail is not a viable option. In dense urban areas, I can understand using rail. Most of Florida and Texas is sprawling. There is no way that type of system can sustain itself in that environment. Police & Fire are paid in many respects by water bills, taxes, and violations/fines. There is no private solution for those types of services. There are plenty of private solutions for transportation that are more cost effective than public transportation. if any state wants HSR, it should be done by private companies and not the government.

I think making better fiscal decisions is better than throwing money into a pit that really does not serve the whole public good.

Amen.

Until we tear down the suburbs and all start living in densly populated urban cores there is very little use for mass transit as it is never located where most of the mass needs to go. Our bus system in Jacksonville is a joke. Useless for 99% of the city's very widespread population. We have to have a car to get anywhere, do anything, work, or shop. Rail would be no better - and in fact worse since busses can at least go anywhere a road allows and are not limited to a single track. Tampa and Orlando are just as spread out. HSR would be useful to a very small minority of users and meanwhile all of us would wind up paying the cost for it. Police and fire are there for everyone's benefit. Rail is not. There is a commuter rail is south Florida - not used much. This isn't Europe people. Most people in most of the US do not live downtown. We're too spread out.

 

[Jitzy]

Amen.

Until we tear down the suburbs and all start living in densly populated urban cores there is very little use for mass transit as it is never located where most of the mass needs to go. Our bus system in Jacksonville is a joke. Useless for 99% of the city's very widespread population. We have to have a car to get anywhere, do anything, work, or shop. Rail would be no better - and in fact worse since busses can at least go anywhere a road allows and are not limited to a single track. Tampa and Orlando are just as spread out. HSR would be useful to a very small minority of users and meanwhile all of us would wind up paying the cost for it. Police and fire are there for everyone's benefit. Rail is not. There is a commuter rail is south Florida - not used much. This isn't Europe people. Most people in most of the US do not live downtown. We're too spread out.

I'm in Saint Johns County, so hi neighbor! I agree with the decision to turn down the rail money. Orlando to Tampa, who really cares? You have to get in your car to get to the rail station, board the train and then get a rental or a cab to your destination. Just as easy to take your car.

 

[Joshua_me]

I agree with the decision to turn down the rail money. Orlando to Tampa, who really cares? You have to get in your car to get to the rail station, board the train and then get a rental or a cab to your destination. Just as easy to take your car.

By that way of thinking, we should get rid of public transportation altogether.

I mean - airports ? Who needs 'em ? It's not like the plane takes you right your driveway or hotel room. What a hassle !

The first stage of Florida's high speed rail line would have had five stops, connecting Tampa, Polk County, Walt Disney World, the Orange County Convention Center, and Orlando International Airport.

An elaborate systems of buses and other transportation would have then carried passengers closer to their destinations.

Bottom line, Florida, once again, has been denied stepping into the 21 century. 10's of thousands of construction jobs were lost, and over 2.5 BILLION dollars was handed to California instead.

And when gasoline reaches 7 to 8 dollars a gallon in the coming years, (and this WILL happen) Boy, will folks be whistling a different tune.

"This isn't Europe" could not be a more accurate statement.

 

[fast43]

How can this item be shelved. I thought our President was pushing for this system...............

 

[Royal Duke of Epcot]

Would love to hear pete and the crew do a segment on this...most of us outside of florida are not familiar with the politics involved.

 

[k5jm]

How can this item be shelved. I thought our President was pushing for this system...............

It is being shelved because it will put the tax payers in the hole another 3 billion and it will not sustain itself financially. States control their own budgets and not the federal government and this is not an interstate project.

 

[Joshua_me]

It is being shelved because it will put the tax payers in the hole another 3 billion and it will not sustain itself financially. States control their own budgets and not the federal government and this is not an interstate project.

k5jmh:

I certainly hold nothing but the highest regard for you, (and especially your computer skills that far exceed my own) but you are simply misinformed on this issue.

The "Put the tax payers in a hole" was an effective smokescreen put up by people who have other interests at stake.

Quite simply, our Gov lied to us:

TAMPA, Florida - Despite promises that he would consult a new feasibility study in February before making any decisions on high-speed rail (HSR), Gov. Rick Scott yanked the project off the tracks Wednesday based on a report published on Jan. 6 from a notorious rail opponent.

The governor's office confirmed Scott relied on a controversial report from the libertarian Reason Foundation. It indicated Florida would be vulnerable to cost overruns and overambitious ridership projections - concerns Scott cited in his Wednesday decision.

But on Jan. 6, the same day the study came out, Scott indicated he was waiting on a different study to make his decision.


Companies such as Siemans and Virgin America indicated they would be willing to assume the risk and Florida's $280 million portion of the bill for the right to be the first HSR-builder in America. But Scott's Wednesday rejection came before those private companies even had a chance to make a bid, which would have cost the state nothing.

Rail proponents also criticized the Reason Foundation study for automatically assuming the project would come in over-budget and ridership would automatically come in under projections. Many dismissed it as a worse-than-worst-case scenario.

The Reason Foundation study also didn't factor in ridership from tourists, a large component of the estimated customer base for the Orlando-to-Tampa line.

Follow 10 Connects reporter Noah Pransky on Twitter at www.twitter.com/noahpransky or Facebook at www.facebook.com/noahpransky.


Noah Pransky

Thoughts that include statements such as "tax payers will be 3 billion in the hole" and "it" (the HSR) will not sustain itself finaincially involve misinformation and as much as they do clarvoyency.

The fact is, Florida has been duped again, and the loss of 10's of thousands of jobs has now been presented as "dodging a bullet".


(This is probably as "political as I can get on The DIS, and it will be my last words on the subject. I'd like this thread to remain open for as long as possible, but I fear that will not happen)/SIZE]

 

[k5jm]

k5jmh:
... but you are simply misinformed on this issue...

I was stating what has been published in the news media in the state and in the NY Times.

We have a similar issue here with our light rail, or as we call it, "The Toy Train." Ridership will not sustain the rail system that is proposed. With the amount of maintenance needed for such a system, the taxpayer burden will be a large one.

I am sure the lobbyists and politicians on both sides of the issue are spinning in 3 dimensions right now, but the reality of the issue is $$.

I would love nothing more than to ride a train from Tampa or MCO. But I would not want to cripple the Tax payers of such a system for my meager use of the HSR. If this was a public/private partnership with the private sector taking the bulk of the risk for running the system (like a Disney Owned/operated system with the State providing the right-of-way), I would not have as many doubts about the HSR.

We had a similar measure shot down in the 80's for a WED designed monorail. The issue was initially approved but was shot down by a mayor who had the bus manufacturers in his back pocket.

Thank you for the kind words at the beginner of your post