Exception to the "Can always make res at home resort 11 mos ahead of check out" rule

[CarolMN]

Thought this subject deserved its own thread. According to fellow DVC'r dougmatt's experience, if you need to borrow points to make a reservation, you may NOT be able to make that ressie 11 months ahead of time. Here's his post from another thread:

"Careful CarolMN

quote:
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You do not need to have points in your account on the day you MAKE the reservation. They need to be there by the time you start your stay.
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Not necessarily true. We have a tendancy to borrow our points alot. While you don't need to have the points in your account for this year, BUT they must be available to borrow from the next!!!

Example:

Use year April. Total 2002 remaining - 0; total 2003 remaining - 50; total 2004 - 350.

I want to book June 2003 for 150 points. I plan to borrow from 2004 to do it. I should be able to make that home resort ressie in July 2002.... MS wil NOT let me book it until APRIL 2003!!! Only 3 months prior...

So if you are BORROWING alot... USE YEAR is HUGELY important.... Some folks may disagree with this, but I know from personal experience that it's true. I have been declined booking 2 straight years at my 11 month window for this very reason.. Even spoke to a supervisor at MS and they explained it to me. VERY frustrating, and not well documented!

So when considering use year, be sure to consider when you want to vacation most often, and whether you plan to bank AND borrow."

Here's a link to the original thread:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190843


I absolutely did not know this and thought perhaps there are others who also would like to know about this "exception" to the oft quoted "you can always make ...... etc." rule.

 

[Terry S]

CarolMN... Am I understanding that dougmatt is saying you can not borrow your next years points until you are actually in (or past) your use month?

 

[CarolMN]

That's my understanding of what he said. It doesn't sound quite right to me, though, so I think there is more to understanding the exception as my experience is different than what he reports.

I made a ressie in February, 2002 for an August 2002 stay and had to borrow points from my 2003 use year to do it. I have an August use year and when I made the ressie, I was still in my 2001 use year. If I undestand what MS told him, I shouldn't have been able to make that August 2002 ressie until August 2002. So my experience doesn't mirror dougmatt's. Since he says he talked to a Supervisor, I have to believe there is something else that I am missing.

That's why I posted this as a separate thread, hoping that someone could explain it a little better. I'm actually thinking that maybe MS made an interpretation error of some kind or that it has something to do with annual dues and how they are paid.

Anyone else know????

 

[Lesley]

That doesn't really seem to be what he's saying, imo. The rules have always been that the points need to be available at the time of your stay and that doesn't have anything to do with when you book your trip. Which is how you booked that August trip while in your 2001 use year.

Say your use year is August, If you are taking a trip in July 2002 using 2003 borrowed points, as long as you will be in the proper use year at the time of the trip you can make the reservation whenever.... August of 2001 at the earliest. Basically if you are borrowed so far ahead that you'd need the following use years' points (ie 2004 points for a stay that's essentially still in the 2001 use year)...well, then you've just used up your points. You can't book with points you don't have, and the 2004 allotment is only available for borrowing for stays that are in your 2003 use year.

Your real stay (not the example above) will be in your 2003 use year....you should have no problem booking it in July of this year using the 2004 borrowed points. If MS is telling you otherwise, speak to someone else.

 

[Doctor P]

I sent this question to MS: with a June use year, can I access my June 2004 points in August 2002 for booking a DCL cruise for July 2003.

Let's see what their response is.

 

[DebbieB]

I have a friend who borrows heavily and she has never had a problem with booking at 11 months. She has an August use year, but usually goes in June so it gets complicated. For example, she's going June 2002 so her stay is still in her 2001 use year. So she is borrowing 2002 points, not 2003. She could not borrow 2003 points, the stay would have to be after August 1, 2002 to use 2003 points.

 

[CarolMN]

Originally posted by Lesley
......
. You can't book with points you don't have, and the 2004 allotment is only available for borrowing for stays that are in your 2003 use year......

.

Lesley - I know that you can only borrow one use year ahead so 2003 points are only available to borrow into the 2002 use year, and 2004 points should be available to borrow into the 2003 use year. It seems to me that is what dougmatt was trying to do. Here's what he posted:

Use year April. Total 2002 remaining - 0; total 2003 remaining - 50; total 2004 - 350.

I want to book June 2003 for 150 points. I plan to borrow from 2004 to do it. I should be able to make that home resort ressie in July 2002.... MS wil NOT let me book it until APRIL 2003!!! Only 3 months prior...

With an April use year, his desired stay in June 2003, falls with his 2003 use year (4/1/2003 - 3/31/2004). He wants to borrow 2004 points into the 2003 use year so that he can book his June 2003 stay in July of 2002 (11 month window). MS told him he had to wait until April 2003 to make the reservation. He said he talked to a Supervisor at MS.

I personally think your advice to talk to someone else is the only thing to do because my interpretation is the same as yours. However, it bothers me that MS supervision said no and if that stands, I'd like to understand the nuances of the booking rule that is/was used in dougmatt's situation.

Carol

 

[Gary K. D.]

Sorry but I can't buy onto the senario. I have never run across a situation where points could not be borrowed to take advantage of the 11 month booking privledge. Unless I am reading the post wrong, whoever diseminated that information is wrong. The only situation that I know of is occurring at the Beach Club where special permission has to be obtained to borrow points and that is only until the Resort actually opens. I have run into situations where the some cast members at MS are not on top of all of the rules and have given false information. So, from my perspective, you should be able to borrow those April 2004 points in July 2002 to make a reservation at your home resort in June 2003. I would want to see it in my documents if I was denied access to those points until April 2003.

 

[Lesley]

Okay...I was confused by your post and didn't realize who had written what. I still say that our documentation (and others' experiences) says that we can book at 11 months no matter what...as long as the points used are useable in the use year of the stay.

Sorry to hear that dougmatt is having such a hard time getting the right answers from MS...but I bet anything (okay..well, not really...but....I'm relatively sure) that if he calls to reserve that trip in July he'll be able to do so. When calling for reservations the computer basically dictates what can be done and what can't...not the cm. Of course, sometimes the computer is messed up (like with booking January stays past the 28th....in February). But I think there could actually be legal action against DVC for not allowing the reservation to be made at 11 months when the points will be available at the time of the stay....you can't shut someone out of the 11 month window. Actually I think the whole system is designed so this does not happen.

Actually I think I have done the above....I booked a Dec. 2002 trip using 2003 borrowed points while still in my 2001 use year (I'm March). I could call now and book a March 2003 stay on my 2004 points.

 

[Firefighter Mickey]

I recall that with the old member guidebook (before DVC gave us this piece of junk that contains only fluff for info), this was given as a specific borrowing example that was allowed.

There are actually 2 active use years (if you want to think of it that way). The year you are currently in, and current-year+1 that you may be making a reservation in.

If MS is telling people that they cannot borrow from 2004 to make a ressie in 2003 at the 11 month window in 2002, then either that person at MS is wrong, or DVC has changed the rules without telling anyone.

 

[TroyWDW]

Borrowing Vacation Points. A member may Borrow under the following guidelines:
1) Members may Borrow up to one hundred percent (100%) of their annually allotted Vacation Points from their next succeeding Use Year to secure a reservation in the immediately preceding Use Year.

There are provisions for DVCMC to suspend or limit Borrowing in order to maintain a proper balance. (I assume this has never been done?)

Just a guess, but I think where some of the confusion may be, is that in dougmatt's example, he states he is trying to make a reservation for a June 2003 arrival and he states that Member Services say he can't because of borrowing restrictions, etc.

The current constraint is that you can't make a June 2003 arrival at your home resort until July 2002 (i.e. this reservation can't be made for another ~3 months).

My expectation is that when he tries to make this reservation in July, the computers will allow the transaction.

Troy

 

[SleepyatDVC]

CarolMN,

It is funny that Dougmatt (& subsequently you)brought this problem up because my Aunt Mamie thought she also had this same problem.

Mamie is a DVC member who bought into OKW during the presale ($48/pt?). Since year 1 she has always been in a constant state of borrowing. She also has an April use year. She always told me that she wasn't able to access her NEXT years' points until April 1. Since I had frequented these boards since before I bought into DVC, this did not match my understanding of borrowing points. I asked her if she was sure and to maybe check again with MS. She said that's what she had been told by member services over the years (numerous times) and so that's how she plans now. Well, I didn't want to harp that she was wrong and since she had already adjusted her vacation plannning to this quark, I just left it alone.

My next scheduled trip with DH and both my DDs is to BWV 9/14 - 9/27/02. But before then, Mamie and I went on a last minute trip to VWL/OKW in the beginning of March 2002 with some of our kids. While we were there, she decided that she would try to overlap her next family trip with ours so that we could meet up. We were going to try out the BCV. She didn't think she could borrow her April 2003 points until April 1, 2002 but I told her to give it a shot. So, we got on the phone on 3/6/02 and I was able to switch 9/22 - 9/27/02 over to BCV from BWV and she was able to book 9/22 - 10/4/02 at BCV. We then linked our 2 reservations together.

So, she was able to borrow her 2003 points for a 2002 trip during her 2001 use year. She was extremely surprised that she could do this. She thought that maybe DVC changed their policy sometime in the last few years. (I just thought she was mistaken all along and didn't have the advantage of reading these boards.)

So, hearing about Dougmatt's problem seems strangely similar to what Mamie had always been told. Maybe policy HAS changed and some at MS are still confused? Maybe there's a problem in the computer regarding April use years?

Since, Mamie was able to book before April 1, 2002, I do think that bank/borrow policy that we understand it as, is correct. But the fact that Mamie & Dougmatt had been told the same thing by MS, makes me think that something is there at least. Maybe something to do with the computer program not "seeing" the 2004 points yet?

Since, Dougmatt is asking about 6/2003 and he can't techinically book yet, maybe that's part of the problem? I wonder if MS would tell him the same thing if he tried to book 4/2003 this May? If so, MS was wrong, and he should be able to book 6/2003 in 7/2002 also. If I were him, I would try booking 4/2003 next month just to see if I can.

Interesting situation, I wonder if there is an official response from MS about this matter to settle it once and for all.

 

[Doctor P]

I'll try to post the MS reply when it comes in.

 

[dougmatt]

Alot of of commentary about this... Since I have just noticed this new thread I will repost my additional comment below. FYI I was using the orginal scenario as a 'What if' example. This post includes what acutally happens.

Terry
The only clarification I can offer is one provided by MS, that TO MAKE A RESERVATION you must have points available to your account (either in the account or available to be borrowed) to cover the reservation... Still confuses me. I agree with you. You would think If I wanted to make a 2003 ressie I could use 2004 points... But I am here to tell you that you can't!

What's worse is that even the MS staff doesn't understand it well. This last Nov 2001 (my use year is DEC) I tried to make VB (one of my home resorts) reservations for June. I was using some points from 2002 (borrowing since it wasn't DEC yet) and 2003. I was told my 2003 points would not be available since it was more than 1 year out so I couldn't make the ressie. SOOOOO I called back DEC 1 to make the ressie.. I was then told I could not make the reservation since it wasn't 2002 yet and I wanted to use 2003 points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am actually doing an add on just to get myself out of the hole that MB and a cruise has put me in............

Don't know about you, but I have had REAL trouble getting reservations lately for anything inside 8 months so the 11 month window is becoming critical. We always travel during peak times due to my wife's education profession.

 

[dougmatt]

I'll take that bet!!! Say all your 2004 points

(just playing)



I have spoken to MS twice with the same issue.. I assure you... It's a real issue. You must not do a lot of borrowing, or once again MS is confused. I can tell you they have been inconsistant numerous times when I have called. Just depends on who you get. Other ex: I called MS at 11:30 AM to book a room, said they didn't have one. Wife calls at 11:33 AM (not knowing I was calling) and she get's the reservation?!?

We tend to stretch our membership a little. ie.. I never stay in my home resort, always book last minute, exchange out often, do getaways vs Dis., ALWAY BORROWED TO THE MAX etc..

 

[CarolMN]

...This last Nov 2001 (my use year is DEC) I tried to make VB (one of my home resorts) reservations for June. I was using some points from 2002 (borrowing since it wasn't DEC yet) and 2003. I was told my 2003 points would not be available since it was more than 1 year out so I couldn't make the ressie. SOOOOO I called back DEC 1 to make the ressie.. I was then told I could not make the reservation since it wasn't 2002 yet and I wanted to use 2003 points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dougmatt - If the above is the actual situation, then I understand why MS said no. You can still always make ressie's 11 months ahead of check out at your home resort. As lesley surmised, it appears that you are trying to borrow points more than one year ahead.

If you have a December use year, your 2001 use year runs from 12/1/2001 - 11/30/2002. That means your 2001 use year points are for stays between 12/2/2001 and 11/30/2002. A stay in June 2002 falls within your 2001 use year.

(BTW, Last November, you were still in your 2000 use year).

If you had enough points in your 2001 use year OR your 2002 use year or a combination of 2001 & 2002, you could have made that reservation. Again, the desired June 2002 stay falls within your 2001 use year.

2002 use year points are good for stays between 12/1/2002 and 11/30/2003. You could borrow those into your 2001 use year (which would cover the June 2002 reservation).

You cannot borrow 2003 use year points for a stay that falls within a 2001 use year.


These rules do work the same for everyone and MS was correct. You are trying to borrow points more than one year ahead and this is not allowed. I know it can be confusing.

I appreciate that you posted the actual situation - use year is confusing to many.

 

[dougmatt]

Maybe I am not explaining this clearly.. I actually made this very reservation in December but I could not make it until December. The 2nd time I called the CM did not understand the rules either (that was the point about them not understanding)...

I think the confusion is I was incorrectly stating the 'year' of the use year in that I wanted to book the points using 2002 points using your interpretation of the dates. I was expressing it in calendar year vs use year.

Better? (probably not )

Point is I wanted to book a reservation within the correct booking window using points borrowed from a use year that would be available for use at the time of the stay, but not when I made the reservation..... K? WHEW!

 

[Lesley]

OK, now I'm confused...if what you wrote (and Carol quoted) is correct you were trying to book a trip in 2002 (calendar) with 2003 (use year) points? With a Dec. use year you just can't do that at all (unless you're booking for Dec.), whether its before or after the start of the use year when you call. Even 2002 use year points would need to be borrowed for a trip any time in 2002 except Dec. (when 2002 points will be current). The only vacation dates you could borrow from the 2003 use year in 2002 would be in December. But this has nothing to do with when you have to call...11 months is 11 months.

Honestly though...I think I'd need to see the whole points history to work it out. With banking/borrowing and multiple home resorts it gets hairy.

Also...if you were using any points besides VB points to reserve VB in June....you couldn't reserve until Dec because you only have the 7 month window with non-VB points at VB. Maybe that's why you could reserve in Dec but not before? Had you already used up your VB points? Were you using points from another resort?

It makes a big difference...and unfortunately when MS looks at your point totals they don't distinguish between points that have different homes. I have been very careful to be sure that they allocate my VWL points to my VWL stays and my BWV points to my BWV stays..but I think the only way to be sure is to always book before 7 months.

 

[Dean]

This thread confused me previously and is doing so again. If I understand correctly, the contention is that you must be within a year of the points to be borrowed before one can do so, if that is what's being said, the contention is WRONG. One can borrow the next years points into the preceding year to make an otherwise appropriate reservation even if you're borrowing points from almost 2 use years ahead. I've done it twice within the last 6 months. I made a reservation in Nov, 2001 for Oct, 2002 using mostly points borrowed from 2003. I did the same in Dec, 2001 for Nov of 2002 again using mostly or all 2003 borrowed points. The only restrictions are that the points must be available at the time of the reservation, all fees up to date, home resort priorities and the like.

The one issue that may be different is for cruises and the like, but for DVC stays itself, the rules are not as implied in this thread. If MS quoted otherwise, they are wrong. Quote from the Aug 1999 member guides lines "Members may borrow up to one hundred percent.....of their annually allotted Vacation Points from their next succeeding Use Year to secure a reservation in the immediately preceding use year."

 

[Cinderella]

Hi, I have an August use year and did not have enough August 2002 points left for my September 2002 trip so I just borrowed in March 2002, points from my August 2003 use year.