Dulce Et Decorum Est

[dcentity2000]

I cannot understand why some people are eager to send their children, their friends, their loved ones off to war. For some reason, these few people seem to look upon war as glamorous, dignified, righteous. They claim that "It is sweet and honourable to die for one's country".

How wrong they are.

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

~ Owen



Rich::

 

[Fitswimmer]

I cannot understand why some people are eager to send their children, their friends, their loved ones off to war. For some reason, these few people seem to look upon war as glamorous, dignified, righteous. They claim that "It is sweet and honourable to die for one's country".

How wrong they are.

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

~ Owen



Rich::

Nobody who has actually been to war thinks that it's glamorous, dignified or righteous but they do know that there are times when it is necessary. Regardless of the reasons that we are in this particular conflict, I will not judge the choices of the people who are fighting it. The decision to go to war was not theirs to make and the blame does not lie with them.
Let's keep the judgement on those that send our soldiers to fight, not on those that are called to service.

 

[va32h]

Nobody who has actually been to war thinks that it's glamorous, dignified or righteous but they do know that there are times when it is necessary. Regardless of the reasons that we are in this particular conflict, I will not judge the choices of the people who are fighting it. The decision to go to war was not theirs to make and the blame does not lie with them.
Let's keep the judgement on those that send our soldiers to fight, not on those that are called to service.

You are misunderstanding the poem. It is precisely about judging those who send our soldiers to fight. Owen wrote this poem in response to a specific person, Jessie Pope, a poet whose jingoistic war poetry compared war to a game of football, and implored youth to "grab a gun and shoot the hun."

He intended it to be a poem just for her, but his friend and fellow poet, Siegfried Sassoon, persuaded him to release it to the public.

It is a commentary not on those who fight, but on those who, without any personal experience of war (as Pope lacked) romanticize and egg on those who do.

Owen fought and died in WWI, another of his poems "Anthem for a Doomed Youth" should tell you how he felt about his brothers in arms.

From my personal experience, I can tell you that this war has nearly ruined my life, and my family's life. I am not yet sure that we will ever recover.

My husband has been deployed twice, and is set to go a third time, which I find appalling, considering how severe his PTSD is from the previous trips. I don't even know where to start with what a wreck he has been, and the experiences he had, and how it has impacted our family. And he is just one of thousands. Tens of thousands.

He doesn't think he did anything particularly noble or honorable while overseas. He doesn't know why he's going back, either. Happy stories about building schools and water treatment plants are not enough to compensate for the permanent physical and mental damage that is being inflicted on our soliders every day.

I find nothing judgemental or wrong in keeping that truth in the public consciousness.

 

[Golf4food]

I cannot understand why some people are eager to send their children, their friends, their loved ones off to war. For some reason, these few people seem to look upon war as glamorous, dignified, righteous. They claim that "It is sweet and honourable to die for one's country".

War is never glamorous.
War can be - and should be - fought with dignity. (Human treatment of prisoners, civilians, and wounded, etc.)
War can be righteous. (Stopping Hitler qualifies as a righteous cause to me.)
It can be honorable to die in and for a just cause. (The "Greatest Generation" isn't so called because they lived during the 40s, they earned that designation by honorably facing the challenges of WWII.)

The details are all left to the reasons behind the fighting. Obviously you feel Iraq is none of those things. Fine. I would argue that World War II, for example, was righteous and honorable. I would prefer to never see America in a war, and if so, then only if in immediate danger from attack or if an ally was in dire straights against an unjust opponent (such as in WWI or WWII).

 

[Fitswimmer]

I'm not talking about the poem, I'm talking about the judgement made prior to the poem.

I cannot understand why some people are eager to send their children, their friends, their loved ones off to war. For some reason, these few people seem to look upon war as glamorous, dignified, righteous. They claim that "It is sweet and honourable to die for one's country".

Nobody is "eager" to send their children, friends or loved ones off to war.

 

[va32h]

I'm not talking about the poem, I'm talking about the judgement made prior to the poem.

Nobody is "eager" to send their children, friends or loved ones off to war.

But in all honesty, you don't know that absolutely "nobody" would be eager to send their loved ones off to war.

Maybe Rich had a conversation or interaction that personally inspired him to make this post.

I found the post thought-provoking, not judgemental, but obviously there can be a difference of opinion on that.

 

[cardaway]

Nobody is "eager" to send their children, friends or loved ones off to war.

Maybe you missed them, but plenty of people here have basically posted that very thing There is nothing wrong with it, but don't try and say they do not exist.

 

[missypie]

In 2001, our law firm made a big deal about Veteran's Day, spending the week honoring the vets at the firm in various ways. Nothing major -a cake in the conference room, an "identify the picture" contest, etc. When the events were over, one of our Vietnam vets emailed our managing partner with gerat gratitude, saying that this had been the first time he had ever been honored in any way for his service in Vietman.

Isn't that just terrible? I think that lots of folks feel bad that the Vietnam vets were treated with such contempt; now they are going overboard to praise the soldier without praising the war.

 

[Lanshark]

War is a very ugly but sometimes necessary thing.
It is the wise leader who decides when it is really necessary and when there are other ways to resolve a conflict.

 

[katerkat]

Maybe you missed them, but plenty of people here have basically posted that very thing. There is nothing wrong with it, but don't try and say they do not exist.

Sure - combat/hazard duty pay, family seperation pay, tax-free pay, daily allotment for meals... We easily made $500 more a month when he's deployed and now that we're going to be getting captain's pay tax-free... Plus, you know, absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that.

I don't know anyone, despite what they say (or how much we joke about the money) who is actually eager to send their loved ones off to war. My husband thinks it's his job and what he was trained to do, and enjoys going out and doing it, but he's not eager to leave everything and everyone behind.

 

[maddiemouse]

I'm not talking about the poem, I'm talking about the judgement made prior to the poem.




Nobody is "eager" to send their children, friends or loved ones off to war.

That may be true, but the man presently in the White House was and is eager to send YOUR children, YOUR friends and YOUR loved ones off to war.

 

[cardaway]

I don't know anyone, despite what they say (or how much we joke about the money) who is actually eager to send their loved ones off to war. My husband thinks it's his job and what he was trained to do, and enjoys going out and doing it, but he's not eager to leave everything and everyone behind.

Didn't say you or anybody esle specifically, but I have seen plenty of posts here about people happy that their family member is going back to fight for the cause (that they believe in).

 

[katerkat]

Didn't say you or anybody esle specifically, but I have seen plenty of posts here about people happy that their family member is going back to fight for the cause (that they believe in).

I know you weren't talking about me specifically - I just know lots of people (including my own husband) who say they're happy to do what they're doing, but when it all comes down to it, they're not so eager to leave. They just put on the nice public face and do the lip service thing.

 

[cardaway]

I know you weren't talking about me specifically - I just know lots of people (including my own husband) who say they're happy to do what they're doing, but when it all comes down to it, they're not so eager to leave. They just put on the nice public face and do the lip service thing.

I don't think that is the case for everybody. Especially the ones who talk down to those who don't support what their family members are willing to support.

 

[BelleMcNally]

My husband has been deployed twice, and is set to go a third time, which I find appalling, considering how severe his PTSD is from the previous trips. I don't even know where to start with what a wreck he has been, and the experiences he had, and how it has impacted our family. And he is just one of thousands. Tens of thousands.

He doesn't think he did anything particularly noble or honorable while overseas. He doesn't know why he's going back, either. Happy stories about building schools and water treatment plants are not enough to compensate for the permanent physical and mental damage that is being inflicted on our soliders every day.
.

I cannot send enough good thoughts your way...

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

Didn't say you or anybody esle specifically, but I have seen plenty of posts here about people happy that their family member is going back to fight for the cause (that they believe in).

I agree - just reference any thread where a parent has said "no way, I will do anything I can to discourage/keep my child from going to war" - and the "eager" to have their kid go types come out in force!!!

OP - thank you for that!

va32h - thank you

 

[dcentity2000]

I'd been reading through war poetry (a friend is studying English Literature) and the text hit me so hard I felt compelled to spread it and raise awareness... at the very least, to provide food for thought!

The difference between pro-war and anti-war poetry was stark, almost shocking.

Another poem that hit hard was this one:

A Dead Boche

To you who’d read my songs of War
And only hear of blood and fame,
I’ll say (you’ve heard it said before)
"War’s Hell!" and if you doubt the same,
Today I found in Mametz Wood
A certain cure for lust of blood:

Where, propped against a shattered trunk,
In a great mess of things unclean,
Sat a dead Boche; he scowled and stunk
With clothes and face a sodden green,
Big-bellied, spectacled, crop-haired,
Dribbling black blood from nose and beard.

~ Robert Graves

----------------------

It's heart-renching to read how stay-at-home pro-war activists were so at odds with those who actually went to war.



Rich::