Do you believe "when it's your time, it's your time" (to die...or not to)?

[Allison]

I definitely believe it, and from some of the responses disagreeing with the premise, it sounds more to me that they are misunderstanding what is meant by the expression.

I'm not misunderstanding anything and it comes across as rather dismissive of you to say if someone doesn't agree, they must just not understand.

 

[L&Lfan]

I said some of the responses, not all of them. Perhaps I didn't mean your response.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't believe in fate. It's just a matter of happening to be in the wrong or right place in the wrong or right time.

There is a progression with diseases and aging where it's time to "let go" or stop fighting it, but this is not something that is pre-decided.

Without getting too religious for this board, which is hard to do with a topic like this, I also do not believe people suffer or die for a purpose, or that God "takes" some in death and protects others.

Jason Aldean's wife said that angels were watching over them in Las Vegas. What about the victims?

I can't say for sure, as I do not know the woman but maybe she would say to you, she doesn't know why Jason and his band was so blessed to be spared. Maybe she would say that perhaps the angles were watching everyone, but when Jason's angel said RUN, he listened and ran because he believes in angels and knew to listen. Not to sound like victim blaming because I am not, just saying its not as horrible a statement as you are making it sound like.






Here is the thing, to me; we all have choices in this life. We have the choices to do good things or bad things. And our choices affect other people, positively or negatively. So, the shooter made a choice in Las Vegas. His choice affected the lives of his victims by injuring and killing. Was it "just their time to go". I don't think so. I think there is some sort of predetermination of our lives but that changes as our choices are made or when we are affected by other people's choices. So for the victims in Las Vegas, it may not have been "their time to go" but the shooter's choices made it their time.

 

[Debbie Jean]

I will quote my 87 year old mother

"When your bus comes along, you have to get on whether you want to or not"

At her age with what she has seen of life, I respect her opinion

 

[BLAZEY]

Absolutely not. I don't believe that when innocent children are murdered it was "their time". I don't believe that all the people who perished on 9/11 did so because it was "their time". Those are horrific tragedies that I cannot believe can be categorized as "it was their time to go".

When my 82 year old father died last year after suffering from Alzheimer's for 10 years, yeah, it was probably his time to go.

That's the difference between dying of natural causes and being murdered. Someone who is murdered it's never their time to go, their time was stolen from them and their loved one's.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

no

 

[Magpie]

I can't say for sure, as I do not know the woman but maybe she would say to you, she doesn't know why Jason and his band was so blessed to be spared. Maybe she would say that perhaps the angles were watching everyone, but when Jason's angel said RUN, he listened and ran because he believes in angels and knew to listen. Not to sound like victim blaming because I am not, just saying its not as horrible a statement as you are making it sound like.

Here is the thing, to me; we all have choices in this life. We have the choices to do good things or bad things. And our choices affect other people, positively or negatively. So, the shooter made a choice in Las Vegas. His choice affected the lives of his victims by injuring and killing. Was it "just their time to go". I don't think so. I think there is some sort of predetermination of our lives but that changes as our choices are made or when we are affected by other people's choices. So for the victims in Las Vegas, it may not have been "their time to go" but the shooter's choices made it their time.

Oh no, I think saying that, because someone believes in angels, they can hear the angelic warning, and run in time to spare their life... saying that would be horrible. Because it says believers in one very specific thing (in this case, angels) are somehow more protected from harm than non-believers, or those who believe in something else that's not angels. And that seems - to me - like the very essence of victim blaming. They didn't believe, so they got hurt. If they'd believed, they'd have been spared. Who's to blame here? The victim, for not believing.

I personally fall more into the "rain falls on the just and unjust" camp, myself. For good or ill, I do not think any one group of people would ever be more protected than another. I believe every human being has inherent worth and value, no matter who they are, or what they believe. (Although some, I do think, squander that inherent value when they commit acts of evil against others.)

I do agree completely with your statement about our choices, and the impact they have on our lives, for good or ill. Sometimes our choices are very constrained by circumstance (biology, nurture, the circumstances we are born into, or find ourselves living in), but we all still have choices. I believe we - as in all of us, together, you and me both - make our own futures. You can have a part in determining mine, just as I can affect yours, and of course each of us can influence our own lives with our choices.

 

[kmb584]

I think so, but I never did until what happened to my mom in January happened.

She went to Jefferson Hospital of Neuroscience to have a brain aneurysm repaired. Surgery went well, but less than 3 hours post-op, she was unconscious. My dad thought she fell asleep, but the ICU nurse didn't like how fast she fell asleep. Within minutes she was having a stat CT scan and two minutes after that a neurosurgeon was waving consent papers in front of us saying "You need to sign, you need to sign! Your wife has a brain hemorrhage and she's going to die if I don't take her into the OR NOW!!!" Holy smokes.

She underwent an 11-hour operation with a team of neurosurgeons and ended with a left-sided craniectomy. She was in a medically induced coma and on a ventilator. Her neurosurgeon (not the one that knicked the artery that caused the hemorrhage) was near tears as he told us it was very, very much touch and go and he put her chance of survival at less than 5%. In fact, he said he didn't want to lie to us and that it'd be a miracle if she survived, and that in his 30 years experience he'd never seen a bleed so encompassing of the brain.

Well, the day after they stopped the propofol she woke up. The second day that the trialed her off of the vent she passed and was breathing on her own. There are a whole lot of deficits. Complete right-sided paralysis and expressive aphasia. Some memory loss. But, she's in a brain rehab facility and is making strides, some long and some short, on a daily basis. Her skull was taken out of frozen storage and she underwent a cranioplasty in July. This time, the neurosurgeon came out all smiles. It's been a long, hellish road, but we're walking it. If her brain aneurysm ruptured here or if she bled here, she wouldn't have survived. We have neurosurgeons, but none that are routinely at the hospital.

So, yes. Yes, I do. It should not have happened in the first place, but it did. She was going to be discharged early the next morning. What if the bleed was slow and they were driving home from Philly? My mom's a notorious napper and on road trips, she's out cold in less than 10 minutes. My dad would never have known she was dead until they got home.

 

[Allison]

Oh no, I think saying that, because someone believes in angels, they can hear the angelic warning, and run in time to spare their life... saying that would be horrible. Because it says believers in one very specific thing (in this case, angels) are somehow more protected from harm than non-believers, or those who believe in something else that's not angels. And that seems - to me - like the very essence of victim blaming. They didn't believe, so they got hurt. If they'd believed, they'd have been spared. Who's to blame here? The victim, for not believing.

Yes, to me that would be victim blaming and a really horrible statement.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

I don't believe in fate. It's just a matter of happening to be in the wrong or right place in the wrong or right time.

There is a progression with diseases and aging where it's time to "let go" or stop fighting it, but this is not something that is pre-decided.

Without getting too religious for this board, which is hard to do with a topic like this, I also do not believe people suffer or die for a purpose, or that God "takes" some in death and protects others.

Jason Aldean's wife said that angels were watching over them in Las Vegas. What about the victims?

Yup. Lots of young victims too. I'm not sure how someone could think it was their time to go regarding 20 somethings who were gunned down by a domestic terrorist. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[AlohaNow]

Today we received the sad news that my son’s 14 year old classmate lost his battle with cancer. As we prepare to attend his funeral this weekend, I would have a very hard time saying, “Well, I guess it was just his time.”

It’s been the worst week, hasn’t it my friends?

 

[DebbieB]

My mom used to say the day and time is written in a book, she had terminal cancer at the time. That may have given her some comfort dealing with her fate but I really don't believe that. I don't believe that these 58 people were all predestined to be at a Las Vegas concert and be murdered.

 

[PollyannaMom]

...I'm not going to stop going to the movies or music festivals because of tragedies that have happened. If it's going to happen to me, it's going to happen. There may not be anything I can do about it if it did happen. So in the meantime I'm going to live my life to the fullest and not have any fear worrying about something that may or may not happen. If that makes any sense.

Same here, though it's not that I believe "my time" is pre-determined at all. I believe in the butterfly effect - the smallest things often make the biggest differences. So I figure that my choice to go to whatever event is just as likely to save me from being home at the time of a fire as it is to put me in the path of a random shooter - and there's no way of predicting which, so I might as well carry on.

As for deaths "meaning" something, I really don't see them as having a specific purpose in that way. Almost anything has good effects and bad ones (not in equal amounts, of course). And it certainly is possible to concentrate on the good ones...but that still doesn't negate the bad. In the example where someone starts a charity when a loved one dies, for instance - yes, "something good" happens, but I bet if you asked the person, they'd trade it all to still have their loved one with them. Looking for the good (or making some) is a way of coping, not a "Plan A".

 

[luvsJack]

Oh no, I think saying that, because someone believes in angels, they can hear the angelic warning, and run in time to spare their life... saying that would be horrible. Because it says believers in one very specific thing (in this case, angels) are somehow more protected from harm than non-believers, or those who believe in something else that's not angels. And that seems - to me - like the very essence of victim blaming. They didn't believe, so they got hurt. If they'd believed, they'd have been spared. Who's to blame here? The victim, for not believing.

I personally fall more into the "rain falls on the just and unjust" camp, myself. For good or ill, I do not think any one group of people would ever be more protected than another. I believe every human being has inherent worth and value, no matter who they are, or what they believe. (Although some, I do think, squander that inherent value when they commit acts of evil against others.)

I do agree completely with your statement about our choices, and the impact they have on our lives, for good or ill. Sometimes our choices are very constrained by circumstance (biology, nurture, the circumstances we are born into, or find ourselves living in), but we all still have choices. I believe we - as in all of us, together, you and me both - make our own futures. You can have a part in determining mine, just as I can affect yours, and of course each of us can influence our own lives with our choices.

That wasn't what I said, at all. I said he listened, not that anyone wasn't able to hear them nor what they may have or have not believed. The fault is squarely with the shooter. 110%

I don't know why things happen the way they do. I don't know why some are spared and some are not. None of us do. But Jason Aldean's wife being thankful he is alive and that "the angels were with them that night" is not saying anyone was more deserving or that she thinks some how that he is better than anyone else. Or that somehow the victims are to blame for what happened to them. We don't know the belief system of a single one of those victim so how could anyone blame them from that aspect? Its like when a little girl I know who has been battling cancer for so long was finally given a clean bill of health, everyone's response is "Prayers are answered" and I truly believe that. But what about all those children who won't get well. Did He just not answer their prayers? I don't know the answer to that. Nor can I say "it was just their time". None of us really know these answers.

.

 

[Magpie]

That wasn't what I said, at all. I said he listened, not that anyone wasn't able to hear them nor what they may have or have not believed. The fault is squarely with the shooter. 110%

I don't know why things happen the way they do. I don't know why some are spared and some are not. None of us do. But Jason Aldean's wife being thankful he is alive and that "the angels were with them that night" is not saying anyone was more deserving or that she thinks some how that he is better than anyone else. Or that somehow the victims are to blame for what happened to them. We don't know the belief system of a single one of those victim so how could anyone blame them from that aspect? Its like when a little girl I know who has been battling cancer for so long was finally given a clean bill of health, everyone's response is "Prayers are answered" and I truly believe that. But what about all those children who won't get well. Did He just not answer their prayers? I don't know the answer to that. Nor can I say "it was just their time". None of us really know these answers.

.

If he "listened", then why didn't other people listen? Doesn't that, by definition, put the blame on them? After all, they didn't listen! It's even worse to think that maybe the angels were only speaking to him, and not the others.

The questions you listed are exactly why I avoid lines like, "he was spared" and "angels were with him" and "prayers were answered". I won't criticize people for believing any of this, especially when they or their loved ones have just survived something horrifying, but I sure won't embrace the philosophy myself.

After all, as you said... "Did He just not answer their prayers?" "Did He choose to spare one and not the others?"

For me, it's treading entirely too close to a particular philosophy that has really hurt a lot of people - the idea that some are more deserving than others, because of the way they pray or how they live or whether they "listen". It's wonderful that little girl was given a clean bill of health and hopefully she'll choose do something wonderful with her life. But, the idea that she was spared for a reason, when other children are left to suffer and die, is appalling to me. What a heavy burden for a little girl to carry! And how awful must it be to think that maybe if you'd just prayed harder or been a better person, it might have been your prayers which were answered and your child that was saved. Was she more worthy than your child? Well, she'd better prove it!

I believe we all experience both good and bad in our lifetimes. We aren't individually going to be singled out, marked as extra-blessed, and given wealth, health, good fortune or protection from bullets by anyone or anything, no matter how virtuous we might be. The only thing that matters is how we choose to live our lives and whether we bring more joy to the people around us, than we do sadness.

 

[luvsJack]

If he "listened", then why didn't other people listen? Doesn't that, by definition, put the blame on them? After all, they didn't listen! It's even worse to think that maybe the angels were only speaking to him, and not the others.

The questions you listed are exactly why I avoid lines like, "he was spared" and "angels were with him" and "prayers were answered". I won't criticize people for believing any of this, especially when they or their loved ones have just survived something horrifying, but I sure won't embrace the philosophy myself.

After all, as you said... "Did He just not answer their prayers?" "Did He choose to spare one and not the others?"

For me, it's treading entirely too close to a particular philosophy that has really hurt a lot of people - the idea that some are more deserving than others, because of the way they pray or how they live or whether they "listen". It's wonderful that little girl was given a clean bill of health and hopefully she'll choose do something wonderful with her life. But, the idea that she was spared for a reason, when other children are left to suffer and die, is appalling to me. What a heavy burden for a little girl to carry! And how awful must it be to think that maybe if you'd just prayed harder or been a better person, it might have been your prayers which were answered and your child that was saved. Was she more worthy than your child? Well, she'd better prove it!

I believe we all experience both good and bad in our lifetimes. We aren't individually going to be singled out, marked as extra-blessed, and given wealth, health, good fortune or protection from bullets by anyone or anything, no matter how virtuous we might be. The only thing that matters is how we choose to live our lives and whether we bring more joy to the people around us, than we do sadness.

Why does one person "hear" a warning and other's don't? I don't know. I do know that a few times I have very clearly heard my father's voice tell me to turn around or to go back or it will be ok. And those warnings did keep me safe. I can't say why my sister doesn't hear it. Did he love me more? Of course not. So why? I don't know. But I do know that I hear him. Maybe I am just more open to knowing its his voice telling me. But whatever the reason, its not something she has done to be at fault. Why does one person see those who have passed on, and truly believe and know that is what they are seeing and they don't see them once but many times in different places? I don't know. But I don't think everyone that says they saw is crazy. Maybe some are just more open to it.

I don't even know if that is what Jason Aldean's wife meant. I don't have a clue what she meant but just was trying to say that she didn't mean that somehow he was more deserving of living.

Bad things happen to all kinds of people. No one can explain why this one and not that one. No one. I don't think saying prayers were answered is going to give that child a burden to carry but you would have to be of her belief system to understand what she feels. Her parents have started some very worthwhile things in her name and raising a lot of money for childhood cancer research. But is that why she was spared and someone else not? I don't think so. There are so many questions in this old world that we just don't know the answers to.

I don't know what philosophy thinks that somehow some are more deserving than others so I can't answer to that. If you mean what I think you mean, I don't believe that. Prayers of all kinds of people can be and are answered. Has nothing to do with any of the rest of it. And besides NO ONE is deserving. Not one of us. Doesn't matter how we live or what we believe.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I have to give out a huge PLUS 1 to the last comments above!!!!
I would shout out a huge PLUS 1000!!!
That is a very very very deep and catharctic and freeing point of view!

I think that saying, in effect, that a person has passed away, and it was anything BUT their time to go, is like a denial?
We all are going to have that 'time'.
I am not going to automatically assume any further meaning to simple, cliche, comments.
Not unless I see some reason that there is further meaning implied.
Sometimes there is.
But, sometimes, there just is not.
I am not one to be able to read minds or to judge.

 

[Magpie]

Why does one person "hear" a warning and other's don't? I don't know. I do know that a few times I have very clearly heard my father's voice tell me to turn around or to go back or it will be ok. And those warnings did keep me safe. I can't say why my sister doesn't hear it. Did he love me more? Of course not. So why? I don't know. But I do know that I hear him. Maybe I am just more open to knowing its his voice telling me. But whatever the reason, its not something she has done to be at fault. Why does one person see those who have passed on, and truly believe and know that is what they are seeing and they don't see them once but many times in different places? I don't know. But I don't think everyone that says they saw is crazy. Maybe some are just more open to it.

I don't even know if that is what Jason Aldean's wife meant. I don't have a clue what she meant but just was trying to say that she didn't mean that somehow he was more deserving of living.

Bad things happen to all kinds of people. No one can explain why this one and not that one. No one. I don't think saying prayers were answered is going to give that child a burden to carry but you would have to be of her belief system to understand what she feels. Her parents have started some very worthwhile things in her name and raising a lot of money for childhood cancer research. But is that why she was spared and someone else not? I don't think so. There are so many questions in this old world that we just don't know the answers to.

I don't know what philosophy thinks that somehow some are more deserving than others so I can't answer to that. If you mean what I think you mean, I don't believe that. Prayers of all kinds of people can be and are answered. Has nothing to do with any of the rest of it. And besides NO ONE is deserving. Not one of us. Doesn't matter how we live or what we believe.

Sounds good to me! I've heard voices, too. I used to hear my mother (who is happily still very much alive), calling my name all the time. It would make me jump, and I'd go and ask her if she'd just said something, and she wouldn't know what I was talking about.

These days, I mostly just hear voices when I get stuck between being asleep or awake. I think it's very common to hear voices like that... I suspect it's our brains either misfiring or, sometimes, looking after us. We're a lot more perceptive than we consciously realize, and being open to listening to our instincts and intuition is a really good thing. Sometimes, though, my brain plays tricks on me (like telling me something's a memory, when it's really just a dream), and that's less fun.

Of course, there's always a confirmation bias there. If I hear a loved one's voice and nothing happens that's significant, I'm likely to forget all about it. But if I hear a loved one's voice and immediately after I nearly get hit by a car... you can bet I'll remember that!

I think someday, as we learn more about the workings of the human mind, we may be able to explain quite a bit more than we can now.

For me, there's great comfort in thinking that everyone is loved and valued and cherished equally. And I'm definitely not saying prayer has no place at all in my life... in fact, I find that kind of centering activity is very good for the mind and body. It's a way to find clarity and calm and peace. I was, after all, raised Quaker, and every Sunday as a child I sat in Meeting, in silence, listening for that "still small voice". I still sometimes do that!

But, in my world view, prayers are not something that is ever "answered", except in a metaphorical or philosophical sense. And I don't want my prayers ever to be answered, if it means someone else's prayers aren't. I don't want to live in a world where some deity individually picks and chooses whom among us gets their miracle, and who doesn't. Whose prayers are answered and whose are rejected. Who lives and who dies. I don't care if his reasons are unknowable or not, or if it would all be for the greater good, I just don't want that to be my reality. I want us all to have the same ability to make and live in our own world, freely, for good or ill.

I do agree completely with @Wishing on a star that it's best not to assume any particular meaning to simple, cliche comments. I have no desire to police what other people say, or believe. And I try very hard to always assume good intentions on other folk's parts.

 

[Wendy31]

It's hard for me to answer this question & not say anything that may be taken as too religious.

However, in response to the OP, I do believe that, when it's your time it's your time. Our days are numbered. And, while we may not know the when or how, our "end" is known.

That's not to say we live recklessly or stupidly, of course. But, instead, we can live with confidence and faith. And you fight to survive.

But that's also not to say we always understand the why when something bad happens. We pray, but, sometimes, our prayers aren't answered the way we think they should be answered. Our will is not always the way things go. And I don't think if you pray hard enough or "right" enough, then your prayers get answered over the person who didn't pray hard enough or didn't say the "right" words. That's not how prayer works - but I do believe prayer works.

I grew up in church & Sunday school, & there are many things I took for granted as a little girl which I have found myself questioning as I've gotten older, I'll admit. I don't know why children are abused or get cancer. I don't know why some people survived the Las Vegas shooting while others didn't.

I don't believe the people who survived were any more worthy of life than the people who didn't survive. I don't tell people things like "well, it was God's will" or "all things work together for good" or "it was just her time" because none of that is comforting, & sometimes really bad things happen that make no earthly sense to us & there are no good answers. I don't think it's fair or right that 58 people died Sunday night & that 58 families are heartbroken this week.

But I do believe that what is meant for bad or evil can be overcome w/ goodness & love.

I know that the man who died protecting his wife is just as loved & cherished as Jason Aldean's wife. And I do believe there were angels there - not just around the people who lived but also around the people who didn't. Even in the midst of the horror & chaos, love & hope were there too.

I believe every life has purpose. And I believe that there is a time & season for everything - even death.

 

[yoopermom]

OP here, thank you for your deep, heartfelt thoughts that you've expressed. I've had a rough year, but I've never *regretted* any of it, because I know I will never have 2017 again. I know a full stop is coming (someday, hopefully not soon), and try to appreciate at least something *tiny* in each and every day.

You all are so interesting!

Terri