Do you believe "when it's your time, it's your time" (to die...or not to)?

[AndreaDM]

Absolutely not. I don't believe that when innocent children are murdered it was "their time". I don't believe that all the people who perished on 9/11 did so because it was "their time". Those are horrific tragedies that I cannot believe can be categorized as "it was their time to go".

When my 82 year old father died last year after suffering from Alzheimer's for 10 years, yeah, it was probably his time to go.

 

[HarperLeigh]

I definitely believe it, and from some of the responses disagreeing with the premise, it sounds more to me that they are misunderstanding what is meant by the expression. If it's your time to go there's NOTHING you can do about it. And if you survive whatever it is that could kill you, it means it WASN"T your time to go. I have worked in hospitals/nursing homes/assisted living facilities for over 30 years and I have found this to be true.

No misunderstanding. I don’t believe in the premise.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Absolutely not. I don't believe that when innocent children are murdered it was "their time". I don't believe that all the people who perished on 9/11 did so because it was "their time". Those are horrific tragedies that I cannot believe can be categorized as "it was their time to go".

When my 82 year old father died last year after suffering from Alzheimer's for 10 years, yeah, it was probably his time to go.

Have you ever considered the possibility that their lives had other meaning? (Just asking, not trying to start a flame war!) ETA I think what many people do in the awful situation of losing a child is to try to find that meaning. Such as Adam Walsh, for example. A horrible abduction and murder. But his father, John Walsh, turned the tragedy into something positive that many, many people have benefitted via his life's work of crime fighting. His efforts put children's pictures on milk cartons and resulted in the capture of hundreds of fugitives. Adam's life certainly has a lot of meaning through the love of his father.

 

[bgirldeb]

I don't believe in fate. It's just a matter of happening to be in the wrong or right place in the wrong or right time.

There is a progression with diseases and aging where it's time to "let go" or stop fighting it, but this is not something that is pre-decided.

Without getting too religious for this board, which is hard to do with a topic like this, I also do not believe people suffer or die for a purpose, or that God "takes" some in death and protects others.

Jason Aldean's wife said that angels were watching over them in Las Vegas. What about the victims?

 

[Magpie]

Have you ever considered the possibility that their lives had other meaning? (Just asking, not trying to start a flame war!) ETA I think what many people do in the awful situation of losing a child is to try to find that meaning. Such as Adam Walsh, for example. A horrible abduction and murder. But his father, John Walsh, turned the tragedy into something positive that many, many people have benefitted via his life's work of crime fighting. His efforts put children's pictures on milk cartons and resulted in the capture of hundreds of fugitives. Adam's life certainly has a lot of meaning through the love of his father.

Adam Walsh's short life had meaning, because his father fought to give it meaning. But if Adam had lived, his life would have had another meaning, entirely. He would have gone on to do all the wonderful, and terrible things any human being with a full long life can do.

His life was not made more meaningful because it ended prematurely.

There is no upside to Adam Walsh's death. His father may have subsequently managed to do some good works in his name, but that doesn't make his death "worth it" in any way. We will never know what good he might have done, if he'd lived.

Here's a story for you:

Back in the 1980's, a four year old boy named Jeffrey Verdon and his toddler brother were abducted by a pedophile, who - when he was done with them - threw them into the Ottawa river, in the middle of winter. A passerby spotted the children in the water and managed to rescue the little boy. The toddler died. In the years that followed, that little boy's family broke up under the stress of grief and alcoholism. As a teenager, he stomped a 63 year old newspaper delivery man to death. Shortly after getting out of prison for that, he concussed a bouncer in a bar. He got into fights in prison, beat and raped his romantic partners, beat up his landlady... and was eventually diagnosed a sociopath and declared a dangerous offender in his 30's. He'll likely never get out of prison again.

I was only a few years older than Jeffrey when I first read about his "lucky" escape from death. I was a young adult, when I saw him in the newspaper again. The lesson I took from his story is that our lives, and our deaths, have just as much - and as little! - meaning as we give them.

I don't believe there's any grand plan, not when it comes to how we live and how we die. No one is sitting there saying, "Adam Walsh must die, and Jeffrey Verdon must live, because Reasons". If you build on a flood plain and your house washes away, it's not part of any plan. If you zig right when you should have zagged left, and bullets are flying, it's not part of any plan. These are just the results of decisions we all make freely, albeit sometimes unconsciously or unintentionally or unluckily. It's ultimately up to us to do the best we can with the lives we're given. And whatever comes after, will come after.

 

[HarperLeigh]

I don't believe in fate. It's just a matter of happening to be in the wrong or right place in the wrong or right time.

There is a progression with diseases and aging where it's time to "let go" or stop fighting it, but this is not something that is pre-decided.

Without getting too religious for this board, which is hard to do with a topic like this, I also do not believe people suffer or die for a purpose, or that God "takes" some in death and protects others.

Jason Aldean's wife said that angels were watching over them in Las Vegas. What about the victims?

That was exactly what I thought when I read that. How offensive to the victims and their families. She isn't the brightest bulb in the box, though, so...

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Adam Walsh's short life had meaning, because his father fought to give it meaning. But if Adam had lived, his life would have had another meaning, entirely. He would have gone on to do all the wonderful, and terrible things any human being with a full long life can do.

His life was not made more meaningful because it ended prematurely.

There is no upside to Adam Walsh's death. His father may have subsequently managed to do some good works in his name, but that doesn't make his death "worth it" in any way. We will never know what good he might have done, if he'd lived.

Here's a story for you:

Back in the 1980's, a four year old boy named Jeffrey Verdon and his toddler brother were abducted by a pedophile, who - when he was done with them - threw them into the Ottawa river, in the middle of winter. A passerby spotted the children in the water and managed to rescue the little boy. The toddler died. In the years that followed, that little boy's family broke up under the stress of grief and alcoholism. As a teenager, he stomped a 63 year old newspaper delivery man to death. Shortly after getting out of prison for that, he concussed a bouncer in a bar. He got into fights in prison, beat and raped his romantic partners, beat up his landlady... and was eventually diagnosed a sociopath and declared a dangerous offender in his 30's. He'll likely never get out of prison again.

I was only a few years older than Jeffrey when I first read about his "lucky" escape from death. I was a young adult, when I saw him in the newspaper again. The lesson I took from his story is that our lives, and our deaths, have just as much - and as little! - meaning as we give them.

I don't believe there's any grand plan, not when it comes to how we live and how we die. No one is sitting there saying, "Adam Walsh must die, and Jeffrey Verdon must live, because Reasons". If you build on a flood plain and your house washes away, it's not part of any plan. If you zig right when you should have zagged left, and bullets are flying, it's not part of any plan. These are just the results of decisions we all make freely, albeit sometimes unconsciously or unintentionally or unluckily. It's ultimately up to us to do the best we can with the lives we're given. And whatever comes after, will come after.

That is how you see it, but yours may not be the only way or the right way, necessarily. I'm just saying there can be other interpretations.

 

[Magpie]

That is how you see it, but yours may not be the only way or the right way, necessarily. I'm just saying there can be other interpretations.

Thus my use of "I don't believe..."

Of course you're right that there can be other interpretations. But there's something about any suggestion that Adam Walsh's death was a good or beneficial or necessary or predestined "good" thing, that turns my stomach. Not saying you meant it that way, and I would never want to suggest that you can't believe whatever you want, especially if it brings you comfort or meaning.

It's just I personally can't bring myself to find anything good in the suffering of innocents. And I don't want to, either.

 

[Dan Murphy]

I have said for a long time that if I make it to 80, I’m good.

Wait until you are 73 like me.

A friend of ours passed away last week completely unexpectedly - he basically dropped in his tracks.

I very sorry to hear that.

 

[kimblebee]

Wait until you are 73 like me.

I’m 41 now so 80 doesn’t feel that far away. I just picked that number randomly and it just seems like a good goal for me. As you say, maybe I’ll revisit it when I’m 70 lol

 

[earfulofmagic]

No. Perhaps I don't quite understand the premise, exactly.

Is the idea "when it's your time, it's your time (to die)" supposed to mean our deaths are preordained?
Or does it mean that death is inevitable?

I don't believe in the first interpretation whatsoever, though I appreciate the sentiment in its own way and enjoy the human ability to attribute meaning to disordered chaos.

I of course believe in the second, while acknowledging that not every brush with death will result in death (near-death experiences, spontaneous recovery, medical intervention and so on). And that for some people and situations, choosing to face the inevitable and "let go" (discontinuing medical care, whatever) is a very brave decision.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Thus my use of "I don't believe..."

Of course you're right that there can be other interpretations. But there's something about any suggestion that Adam Walsh's death was a good or beneficial or necessary or predestined "good" thing, that turns my stomach. Not saying you meant it that way, and I would never want to suggest that you can't believe whatever you want, especially if it brings you comfort or meaning.

It's just I personally can't bring myself to find anything good in the suffering of innocents. And I don't want to, either.

I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this post.

I think that our perspectives, and probably our beliefs, are very different. As I said before, I've spent just about my whole life caring for others, even as a child and teen, and as a professional have been involved for well over 30 years in a LOT of critical illnesses and deaths in patients I've become very close to, oftentimes over months or years while they battle their illnesses. I've also had to deal many, many times with sudden loss of my patients including resuscitation efforts and consoling families. That is not easy for me. I'm a sensitive and sometimes emotional person in matters of the heart, and it's not unusual that I cry myself all the way home or bawl at home when I hear that one of my patients didn't make it. And I didn't mention it before but I also spent several years working in a top pediatric ER so saw some of the most difficult pediatric cases out there, as well. You want to talk about things that would make your stomach turn? Try working there. As a camp nurse my first summer out of nursing school I experienced resuscitating a drowned child. I could go on... When you do this type of work day after day, year after year, you develop a different type of understanding that, basically, your patients have taught you. Bits and pieces, over time. A privilege to be a part of. Sacred experiences. Many come to believe there is something more going on... something often described as spiritual. Not religious, spiritual. I'm not going to apologize for my beliefs, as I would not be doing justice to the work I, or many of us in the medical professions, do. I have had patients crying in their final days yet I have found words of comfort to help them find peace. I imagine that might be hard for you to do in that situation. But that is my job; my responsibility. I also will not lie to patients so whatever I say has to come from the heart, which is why I sought out information and understanding myself that I needed to do my job. Hopefully this helps explain where I'm coming from, but this may also help explain it, literally the first link I came across when googling for more information. If people can't understand this, then there is no more that I can say.

http://allnurses.com/hospice-nursing/hospice-nurses-personal-349183.html

 

[Magpie]

I have been trying to figure out how to respond to this post.

I think that our perspectives, and probably our beliefs, are very different. As I said before, I've spent just about my whole life caring for others, even as a child and teen, and as a professional have been involved for well over 30 years in a LOT of critical illnesses and deaths in patients I've become very close to, oftentimes over months or years while they battle their illnesses. I've also had to deal many, many times with sudden loss of my patients including resuscitation efforts and consoling families. That is not easy for me. I'm a sensitive and sometimes emotional person in matters of the heart, and it's not unusual that I cry myself all the way home or bawl at home when I hear that one of my patients didn't make it. And I didn't mention it before but I also spent several years working in a top pediatric ER so saw some of the most difficult pediatric cases out there, as well. You want to talk about things that would make your stomach turn? Try working there. As a camp nurse my first summer out of nursing school I experienced resuscitating a drowned child. I could go on... When you do this type of work day after day, year after year, you develop a different type of understanding that, basically, your patients have taught you. Bits and pieces, over time. A privilege to be a part of. Sacred experiences. Many come to believe there is something more going on... something often described as spiritual. Not religious, spiritual. I'm not going to apologize for my beliefs, as I would not be doing justice to the work I, or many of us in the medical professions, do. I have had patients crying in their final days yet I have found words of comfort to help them find peace. I imagine that might be hard for you to do in that situation. But that is my job; my responsibility. I also will not lie to patients so whatever I say has to come from the heart, which is why I sought out information and understanding myself that I needed to do my job. Hopefully this helps explain where I'm coming from, but this may also help explain it, literally the first link I came across when googling for more information. If people can't understand this, then there is no more that I can say.

http://allnurses.com/hospice-nursing/hospice-nurses-personal-349183.html

I value the work you do. My mother-in-law recently died after a long battle with cancer and everyone who supported her was incredibly helpful.

But, for me it's very simple. When a child is tortured to death at a hands of predator, when a young mother attending a concert is shot to death by a stranger, when people are murdered violently... that is fundamentally not part of the natural order of things. It's wrong and there's no way to make it right.

We can try to good things in their name, as we move forward, but their death was in no way a good thing.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I value the work you do. My mother-in-law recently died after a long battle with cancer and everyone who supported her was incredibly helpful.

But, for me it's very simple. When a child is tortured to death at a hands of predator, when a young mother attending a concert is shot to death by a stranger, when people are murdered violently... that is fundamentally not part of the natural order of things. It's wrong and there's no way to make it right.

We can try to good things in their name, as we move forward, but their death was in no way a good thing.

I think it's all about experiences and beliefs. As I said, obviously ours are very different, and I can't take this conversation any further without breaking the rules of the board. But suffice it to say, there can be other viewpoints. There has to be, at least for some. How can people move on with their lives, perhaps care for other children, and themselves, go to work, etc., if they can't try to make some sense out of a horrific event like that? And I don't mean just with doing good things in their names. I do see what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Disneyland1084]

My cousin's 13 year old son was only a second away from getting hit by a speeding car today. He got off the bus, started to cross the street when the car came speeding by. It wasn't his time to go yet. It scares me to think how close it came to ending in tragedy.

 

[tvguy]

I absolutely believe when it's your time, it's your time, and if it isn't, it isn't.

Too many people I know passed for no apparent reason, and too many people have had close calls they should not have survived for me to believe any other way.

And I DO NOT want to know in advance.

 

[Magpie]

I think it's all about experiences and beliefs. As I said, obviously ours are very different, and I can't take this conversation any further without breaking the rules of the board. But suffice it to say, there can be other viewpoints. There has to be, at least for some. How can people move on with their lives, perhaps care for other children, and themselves, go to work, etc., if they can't try to make some sense out of a horrific event like that? And I don't mean just with doing good things in their names. I do see what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Yes, I am happy to agree to disagree... though, I'm not all that sure we're actually disagreeing.

For me, it's absolutely about belief, and also about acknowledging that we have free will to act for good or ill, in this world we live in. When someone does something evil to someone else... to me, that's all it is, an evil act perpetuated by an individual. It has no "greater meaning". It wasn't preordained or destined. It's just sad and unfortunate.

Knowing this is what makes it much easier - for me! - to move on with my life, care for my family, go to work, etc.

A few people do evil things, but that's their choice. No one made them do evil. And fortunately, most people choose to do good, and that's why I love humanity.

As for illness, disease, etc... that's all just the gears and clockwork workings of the world. I may value my life much more highly than that of a harmful bacteria or virus, but I don't think they're out to get me and I have no personal beef with them, when they hurt me. I eat plants and animals, with great enjoyment, though I'd obviously prefer not to be eaten myself. And when my physical systems malfunction, it's not punishment or reward or a learning opportunity (though I might indeed learn something from it), it's simply unfortunate. I try to take good care of my body and hope it'll malfunction later, rather than sooner. But there's only so much I can do, and I know I won't live forever.

 

[gillep]

No, I do not.

 

[Kitty 34]

I could get into a fatal car accident on my way to work, I could have a pack of wolves eat me, I could get trampled to death at rope drop at MK (OK...not really, I don't rope drop, so that's YOUR risk, not mine... ).

I don't worry about these things.

I don't worry either, but the the pack of wolves possibly eating me is a tad unnerving!

 

[Wishing on a star]

We are all, yes, going to 'go'.
This is inevitable. And, this will happen as some 'time'.
And, really, very very miniscule percentage of people do anything to choose or determine that time.
So, in general, yes, I can agree that 'it was their time'.... 'When it is my tine...' Etc.

As far as fate... Which is more of a religious topic...
I will just say, again, in very general terms...
I do not have much of a belief in fate.
That would be like predestination, wouldn't it?

I can understand the desire to find a positive and deeper meaning to the ending of life.
But, bad things do happen to good people.
We can use that as a catalyst to try to do good things... afterwards, in a reactive way.
But, I do not think of that as a 'fateful' reason that it was anyone's 'time'.

I do not know much about some other religions.
But, when I think about the Judeo Christian beliefs... Just in general.
Is it not true that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.
Is it not true that it is not the will of 'god' that any man should perish.

I think that there are very very very few times that a person's life, or the specific 'time' of the ending of a person's life, has been predetermined by fate.