DL FastPass being scaled back?

[tjkraz]

MiceAge.com is reporting that Disneyland is implementing radical changes to the FastPass system--removing it from quite a number of rides while severly limiting the operating periods for others.

http://www.miceage.com/allutz/al071304a.htm

Is this report to be believed?

I have to admit, they could probably remove FP from about half of the attractions at WDW without missing a beat, but I sure hope they don't even consider this move on the legitimate "E" Tickets (The Mountains, TT, RnR, ToT, etc.)

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Is this report to be believed?

One can only hope!!

 

[Ontario Lion]

OK, help me understand why is removing Fast pass a good thing. I think it helps to see everything.

Thanks!

Ontario Lion

 

[OnWithTheShow]

Some guests just can't "get with the computer age" and figure out how FastPass works...

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by Ontario Lion
OK, help me understand why is removing Fast pass a good thing. I think it helps to see everything.

Thanks!

Ontario Lion

Fatspass only makes sense on attarctions that tend to have long lines in the first place. Haunted Mansion and Pirates (both of which are "legitimate" e-ticket attractions) have such huge throughputs due to the high capacity ride systems in the first place that their lines rarely exceeded 10 minutes.

Also there is an argument that too many fast pass attractions makes the parks feel more crowded. I have personally witnessed this in Disneyland. All those people who would be in lines are now out in the parks clogging the sidewalks. On even slightly busy days, the crowds on the streets of Disneylan are much worse than they were before fastpass and that takes away from my overall enjoyment of the park.

Fastpass works best when deployed on a limited number of e-tickets with low ride capacity (coasters and thrill rides), or on attractions with long lines becuase of their popularity. Its a good thing, but it should not be used on all, or even most attractions.

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by Ontario Lion
OK, help me understand why is removing Fast pass a good thing.

The article I quoted has a farily good explanation for that. Basically, I think you can summarize it in 3 points:

1. There are people within the parks division who contend that the park infrastructure was not designed to accommodate the current volume of Guests who are shopping / dining / browsing rather than standing in ride lines.

2. Guest satisfaction did not "soar" as was originally projected.

3. According to their own studies, the parks have not reaped any financial benefit from the system (again, people shopping or dining rather than standing in line.)

The report claims that Disneyland is prepared for the guest backlash, and still plans to move forward.

Personally, I think the biggest "negative" is that this would effectively devalue the park tickets. Are people shopping and eating more than they would if standing in line? Probably not at the levels that were projected. But not having to wait in line 45 minutes for Space Mountain means that guests can use that time to visit another attraction. So, in effect, people would likely be able to visit fewer attractions in a typical day, without any change in admission prices.

We typically visit WDW during the slower periods, and we have never had to use FastPass for things like Haunted Mansion, Indiana Jones, Star Tours or WWTBAM. So, based upon my experiences, removing FP from about half of the attractions at WDW wouldn't be any disservice to my family.

However, I saw photos posted on a website of lines from July 4th. Haunted Mansion (WDW) had a standby line that threaded throughout the entire queue and then some. On a day like that, the FP tickets would be gone very early in the day. But FP would still help insure that guests at least had a couple of attractions they could ride with little-to-no wait.

 

[OnWithTheShow]

The powers that be (at least the previous admin) only wants guests to experience 4 attractions in a single day.

 

[mrsR123]

The powers that be (at least the previous admin) only wants guests to experience 4 attractions in a single day.

Care to elaborate, Show?

Some guests just can't "get with the computer age" and figure out how FastPass works

BTW, I suspect that Baron will get you for this one

 

[Sarangel]

Also, remember that this is being discussed for DisneyLAND, not WDW's Magic Kingdom. There is a world of differences between the two.

Disneyland's infrastructure really is geared towards having some of the crowds standing in the queues. The pathways are narrower than in Florida and shops and attractions are packed much tighter.

It doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, but we'll see how it works out.

Sarangel

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

BTW, I suspect that Baron will get you for this one

If his purpose was ‘fishing’ – he just landed himself a big one!!!

Mr. Show!!

Some guests just can't "get with the computer age" and figure out how FastPass works...

Really! Now, I like a good tongue in cheek answer as well as anyone. And I use them constantly!! HOWEVER!!! I don’t just let it dangle like that. I usually try to answer the question as well!

And if it wasn’t supposed to be ‘clever’ and you really mean it, then, my friend, I name you “official” and permanent driver for car #1!!

Ontario Lion:
Fastpass is an anathema!! Pure and simple! It was ill conceived with nefarious purposes and then ‘spun’ to make it seem as though Disney was doing its guests a grand and glorious service!

It was ill conceived…
The primary goal of fast pass, at least according to the “Official” Disney spin, was to reduce line-time. So the problem was too many people waiting in line for the ‘good’ rides. Right? Their answer: Fastpass.

I believe, philosophically, the old answer would have been far easier, far more 'DISNEY', but much more costly! Simply: MORE GOOD RIDES!!!

… with nefarious purposes…
Ah! But the real reason fastpass was instituted was to keep those “wallets” out of the non-spending lines and into the shops and restaurants where, according to the higher-ups, they should be spending their money like there is no tomorrow!! How great that plan must have looked on the PowerPoint presentation! How wonderful the slides and “cost vs. profit” figures must have danced around the screen!! Marvelous!! The only problem is, once again, THEY GOT IT WRONG!!!!

… and then ‘spun’ to make it seem as though Disney was doing its guests a grand and glorious service!
I think we covered most of this before.

The only benefit, and it is a very slight benefit, is that – if you use fastpass - EXACTLY - as Disney forces you to (once again severely limiting options) you MAY (and I really stress the word MAY) be able to see one or two more things than you normally would. But it would also mean that you are spending just as much time in line!!!

Surely Mr., Show, you didn’t forget this most elementary lesson that was taught right here on the DIS a couple of years ago. Did you? Or were you just absent that day!


Oh yeah!! I almost forgot. Right after they implemented fastpass they raised the price of admission. Do you remember why? Because the guest had greater value!! Yes sir!! That’s what they said! Please allow me to paraphrase…

”Because of fastpass, the guest gets to see more. Therefore, it only stands to reason that ticket prices need to be raised accordingly due to an increase in value”!!

… or something like that.

Again, you didn’t forget that as well Mr. Show!!?? It goes a lot deeper into Disney philosophy than trying to “figure out how FastPass works”!!!!

 

[Spectro is #1]

I always love your answers LB

But I respect Show too.

There are people who just don't get the concept. I always see people tring to get a fast pass when they already have their limit.

There is a picture on mice age that shows a pile of invalid passes on what looks like a trash can.

I don't like Fp and very rearly use it. I hate how it has screws up the ques, like at TT.

I also hate riding the RnRC and getting to the first stand only to be held for FP.

 

[KNWVIKING]

At any given time, the line for Splash is 45+ minutes.I could get in line and wait,or I could grab a FP, go get a bite to eat, do PoTC, do the Shooting Gallery head over to BTMRR, get another FP, go hit Splash..... where's the problem ?

I don't know if Disney had some ulterior motive but if so I guess it backfired on them.

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by WDWHound
All those people who would be in lines are now out in the parks clogging the sidewalks. On even slightly busy days, the crowds on the streets of Disneylan are much worse than they were before fastpass and that takes away from my overall enjoyment of the park.

OK, so explain to me how your personal enjoyment of emptier streets is more important than the thousands of Disney (Land or World) guests who prefer not to be shackled to a ride queue for 45+ minutes before half of the E Tickets.

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
It was ill conceived…

...OK...

… with nefarious purposes…

...OK...

… and then ‘spun’ to make it seem as though Disney was doing its guests a grand and glorious service!

...OK...

Really, I'm not trying to be cynical here, but all of the above still leaves me thinking one thing: So what!!! I really don't care what their motivation was for creating FastPass or how they "spun" it.

The first time we took our son (then 18-mos old) to WDW, at 11am the standby line for "Pooh" was already in excess of 30 minutes. Rather than waiting, we grabbed a FastPass, hopped on It's A Small World and then made our 11:30 PS for lunch. After lunch we were literally able to walk-on "Pooh" with our FP tickets.

Frankly the only thing that matters to me is that we didn't have to try and entertain our son for more than a half-hour while crawling through that queue.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Really, I'm not trying to be cynical here

I hope not!! That’s my job!!!

So what!!! I really don't care what their motivation was for creating FastPass or how they "spun" it.

Then why are you here, in the middle of a philosophical debate regarding the overall concept of fastpass? If all that matters to you is your ‘personal’ point of view, or how it ‘personally’ affects you, then God Bless!! Have fun!! I won’t rain on your parade! But at the same time I can’t accept your personal perspective to be a very persuasive argument in the grand “Disney” scheme of things! So hopefully you’ll understand if I in turn say to your personal vignettes, “SO WHAT?”

I just don't understand the anti FP arguement.

That is because you are looking at it from a personal point of view. The same is true of tjkraz. The old adage comes to mind. “It is an ill wind that blows nobody good.”

The ill wind of fastpass is not ‘ill’ enough to affect you adversely, on a personal level. GOOD FOR YOU!!! Congratulations!! You fall within the very narrow range of people that the now famous PowerPoint presentation said was the majority. As they have learned – they were wrong. But for you it is right. You lucked out, personally. Have a ball with it.

But don’t for a moment think that this concept comes even remotely close to what once was the “Disney” philosophy. Just because your personal enjoyment benefits from it does not for an instant mean that concept is not riddled with inherent problems, a few of which have been mentioned. Also, it has been shown that – strictly by the numbers – fastpass does NOTHING to increase capacity. This fact alone cannot be argued. Or for that matter it doesn’t mean shorter lines!!! In fact, it has a tendency to INCREASE lines and waits. And that alone runs counter to the original concept, or at least the ‘spin’ of it. Doesn’t it?

However, I saw photos posted on a website of lines from July 4th. Haunted Mansion (WDW) had a standby line that threaded throughout the entire queue and then some

Now let’s really think about this for a moment. Please consider it. WHY? Why do you think it was like this? Could it possible be that fastpass itself CAUSED the huge standby line? I think if you run the numbers (capacity per hour, line length, fastpasses per hour, etc.) you’ll see that the concept is flawed. Badly flawed. And it creates very long lines in rides that very rarely had that problem before fastpass. I also point to The Land in EPCOT!! Long lines created by the very concept that was supposed to solve it!!! (OH YES!! And they also reduced boats/CMs. Something they don’t say in the official SPIN!!)

OK, so explain to me how your personal enjoyment of emptier streets is more important than the thousands of Disney (Land or World) guests who prefer not to be shackled to a ride queue for 45+ minutes before half of the E Tickets.

How self-centered!!! WOW!! Why not explain it in reverse!! The whole place is the SHOW!! Contrary to recent beliefs every square inch is “THE SHOW” not a profit center!!! That emptier street is no less important than an IMAGINED reduced wait time for an e-ticket. And I believe the much, much, much long wait times in the stand-by lines are much more important than your having to entertain your son or emptier street!!

It still all boils down to overall philosophy and NOT personal benefits!

The powers that be (at least the previous admin) only wants guests to experience 4 attractions in a single day.

Mr. Show is more right than wrong in this statement. This is the SICK thinking of corporate Disney ® today! Instead of dealing with the guest experience (BOTH waits AND crowded streets) they way they should have, they tried to be slick once again!! With smoke and mirrors they ‘solved’ the problem without addressing the core issue at all! TOO MANY PEOPLE AND NOT ENOUGH TO DO!!!!

But they chose to play it cheap!! NO NEW RIDES!! Heck!! They even went the other way and closed other rides! From what I have heard Tomorrowland is a former shell. This is not solving the problem!! This is playing a shell game at best.

I don't know if Disney had some ulterior motive but if so I guess it backfired on them.

You bet they did!! Many motives. And most of them ulterior!! You can lay 10 to 1 that guest satisfaction was a very low priority! And I said it would backfire on them several years ago!! No one is happier than I am. I’m just surprised that it took so long!!

 

[crusader]

Just because your personal enjoyment benefits from it does not for an instant mean that concept is not riddled with inherent problems, a few of which have been mentioned.

Our personal enjoyment is paramount to the basic principles imbedded within the philosophy. Therefore, I contend that any remarks to that regard are more than deserving in this discussion.

Given that the problem seems to be with DL, it is difficult to contend the entire concept is flawed when it works just fine everywhere else - so let's try and break this down a bit further.

Conceptually, fastpass gives one the option to not have to wait 60-90 minutes in line for the most popular attractions such as Splash Mountain anymore. Instead guests can take in a few more sites all day long relatively hassle free.

Fastpass does help make Disney an enjoyable and hassle free experience compared to the alternative of dealing with long lines and gridlock with complaining tired children.

Your argument that it actually creates longer lines for those waiting in the standby is a bit of an embellishment. The truth is, all of us are in line visibly or otherwise with a fastpass and the only reason we're being told there's a 90 minute wait on the big neon flashing board in front of us with what appears to be a relatively manageable que is because of that basic fact.

Unfortunately there are always those who don't want to believe what they are being told or don't get the premise of fastpass and decide to find out the hard way but that's to be expected and I fail to see why the company would service them above the majority which happens to be everyone else? That doesn't appear to meet the criteria of philosophy 101, does it?

The only reason I am reading as to why it is not working at DL is because it is not conducive to the design of that particular park. How does that become a conceptual flaw over design and implementation?

It doesn't.

 

[hopemax]

Mathmatically, Fastpass increases the "busyness" of all other areas in the park. Its effect is the same as if you typically had 25,000 people in the park and then suddenly bumped it up to 35,000. You've taken people that were "out of circulation" and put them back in.

At DL, which doesn't have a lot of unused attraction seats and narrow pathways this is not a good thing. And the number of "this park is too crowded" (RCT fans) has been increasing. Complaints haven't gone away, just the topic. At WDW the situation is not as critical.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Of course it matters. Any time someone on this board enjoys or likes something that is going on at WDW someone else is quick to jump in and say we're selfish, that what we like doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Well, I guess me and 15 million others just don't get it.

FP is not complicated. Baron praised me for figuring out how to use it to my advantage. Sorry, that's not a compliment because understanding FP is akin to knowing how to use a spoon.

FP will not increase ridership, it just spreads it out, nothing more,nothing less. Nothing evil about that. The "add more attractions to thin the lines" strategy may work, but more rides mean more visitors and possibly less Main Street traffic, so I'd bet we're back to long lines.

I will agree that not all the rides with FP need them. PoTC is a perfect example. For that ride, rushing thru the que means you miss all the details, the things that make PoTC more then just a boat ride. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in DL. Hopefully it will lead to improvements in the WDW system.

 

[Bstanley]

Roger that Crusader.

 

[crusader]

At DL, which doesn't have a lot of unused attraction seats and narrow pathways this is not a good thing. And the number of "this park is too crowded" (RCT fans) has been increasing. Complaints haven't gone away, just the topic. At WDW the situation is not as critical.

Sure - DL being our prototype design flows quite differently. I can see the problem with capacity and walkways. Fantasmic is a glaring example of that at its' worst.

The 50th will be another - as was the millennium.

But to say at WDW the situation is "not as critical" is an understatement. At WDW the situation doesn't exist.

 

[JKanownik]

Statistically speaking Fastpass is a benefit for most E-ticket rides at most amusement parks. What they are finding at Disneyland is that the lines are shorter than they anticipated, problems were created in traffic flow and other areas of the park can't handle the increases in guests that would normally be waiting in line, which all negate some of the benefits of Fastpass for guests. I think it is hard to blame anyone for problems with Fastpass due to decreased attendance. You can blame them for the traffic flow and capacity problems, but those are problems that are unique to the Disneyland park due to its limited size. There are other significant problems created by Fastpass, but they are related to the income created/lost by the system for Disney and should not have an impact on guest satisfaction.

Now, considering Disneyworld instead of Disneyland, here's a theoretical look at the Fastpass system:

I don't have any queueing theory books handy to run the math myself, but I'm pretty sure the break even point for Fastpass shortening the average wait time is around 30 minutes. What that means is from an average guest standpoint as long as the average wait time for a ride is greater than 30 minutes, then Fastpass is definitely a benefit. Note that while the "average guest" benefits, each individual guest will experience a different level of benefit depending on how effectively they use Fastpass. Being an avid Fastpass user I would estimate that I save 2 hours each day I'm at the park by using Fastpass. When factored against the average guest, my 2 hour shorter wait time probably equates to a total increased wait time of 1.9 hours for all other guests (although when spread among 30,000 guests this only increases their average wait time by 0.23 seconds). Again I don't have the relevent queueing equations handy, but the variances in numbers I've used versus the actual numbers should be argumentatively insignificant.

Now, just because Fastpass is a benefit to the average guest doesn't make implementing it a bonus for Disney. In order for Disney to benefit from Fastpass people have to use the extra time in a way the creates extra income for Disney. This is where you can get into arguements as to whether or not Fastpass is a good idea. There are two significant ways for Fastpass to increase income for Disney:

1) Guests use extra time to spend more money on food & souvenears
2) Guests satisfaction is increased leading to increased or longer WDW vacations

Personally I spend the time saved from Fastpass to ride other rides and I don't think I purchase anything additional to what I normally would. I would suspect that this is the case for most people. Being that increased spending on food & souvenears would be a much easier (& cheaper) method for Disney to analyze the effects of Fastpass I would guess that that is the method they use.

Increased guest satisfaction is extremely difficult to measure and is even harder to link to changes in income. I would guess that Fastpass has increased my satisfaction with WDW and I am slightly more likely to book a vacation and that I am slightly more likely to book a longer vacation because of it. But I would also guess that there are other guests that did not use Fastpass effectively and have a negative feeling about it that counteract my positive feelings. Even if the positive feelings were to outweigh the negative feelings, I doubt that Disney would be able to measurably indicate that their income increased as a result.

Summed up I think Fastpass is probably a failure for Disney at WDW as well, but because most of the costs associated with the system have already been sunk and it hasn't created any significant problems like it has at DL, they will continue to keep it in place.

There are other smaller issues that come into play from a guest and a Disney perspective, but the issues I've mentioned here should be the main factors in any Fastpass arguement. And I should also note that any mathematical/statistical arguements I've seen online for the Fastpass system were grossly oversimplified. The Unofficial Guide does a good job of explaining the effect of Fastpass on a single ride, but it does not take into account the increased traffic in other areas of the park due to Fastpass holders who don't have to wait in line.

-Josh