Daycare - Help please!!

[crisi]

By the way, I'm happy to list the problems of institutions:

Centers cannot be flexible. When a girlfriend's baby had cancer, her home based daycare provider could do overnights with her daughter, late pickups, whatever was helpful. I'm sure if I was in that situation, certain staffers would help with my kids, but the center couldn't. Additionally, centers have a lot of structure to them. The day runs a certain way, every day (particularly in younger grades). Our daughter outgrew naps before the other kids in her class, and it took a good long time for them to figure out what they should do about that. (Eventually, they let her spend time with the schoolagers who don't nap during nap time).

Centers have a lot of variation. There are good centers. And there are bad centers. Bad centers do have high turnover, may not be safe, etc. When we looked at centers when we were expecting, I walked into one and made it to the baby room without being stopped, where there were four babies in high chairs ready to be fed and no adult in the room. I walked out and didn't ask for an application.


Centers often have one room for each age. Which means you can adore the teacher for two year olds and find the teacher for three year olds not to your liking. My daughter had a personality clash with her three year old teacher - they were not a good match. We left her there, knowing that the next year she would have a great teacher that she would get along with well.

Centers can feel kind of "cold" They do a lot to make the space comfortable, but easy to clean tile floors, playrugs and institutional tables don't feel like "home."


Centers change management. Sometimes this comes with high turnover and changes in policy. A friend of mine had her son in a church center, which she felt was a nice compromise between home and corporate - it felt warmer and more personal to her. The church center was very secular. Then the people running the church decided that they needed to use the daycare as an evangelical arm. And, without letting the parents know they were changing focus, her son (who is not Christian) started to bring home Jesus stories. It hurt her to move him, and she had to do it on short notice. My own daycare, fairly early on, had one bad director - and the brief period she ran the center we considered switching. Turnover on the staff was higher than we wanted, without enough notice. She didn't last long and our current director has been there for five years.

As to the "home daycares are run by Moms" most of my center staff are moms - and most of them have kids in the center.

 

[Lisa_Belle]

Actually, I said that I wasn't arguing with the gal I quoted. She stated low salaries as being a reason for high turnover, and I fully agree with her. Unfortunately, the real workers in the daycare arena are not the ones profitting from the high costs. So they leave for better paying jobs. Do you disagree with that?

Most places now have high turnover. It stems from the fact that there is no long-term job security anymore. Plus, yes, it is general knowledge that folks in any profession make more money if they skip around.

It is great that your daughter is doing well. Good for you. She sounds like quite a little prodigy. That doesn't make all other choices crap, though, as Catty was saying. There are serious issues with institutionalizing children, that no experts can ignore. The primary being the lack of consistency in care-givers as well as the lack of training. It is foolish to not see the bad as well as the good, so that one can make an educated guess rather than numbly following a pack. Don't you agree?

I never said all other choices were crap. In fact, if you go back and read my posts you will discover that I've always maintained that people should pick the care that best fits their child's needs. You're the one who keeps saying other choices than yours are "crap."

I will risk mine not knowing that there is an abusive kid in every pack and that the place that should be safe isn't in exchange for having to show her how to do a somersault myself. It is all about choices. You like yours, I like mine. Lucky, aren't we?

Yes, I'm very lucky. My child has ALWAYS been in a safe environment which has made her a happy go-lucky child with no worries. Her teachers have always looked out for the kids and delt with unruly children (we had a bully in pre-K who was expelled, although he only tried to pick on DD once before she "delt" with him and he left her alone), and she has learned how to stick up for herself. I believe it will come in very handy when she starts middle school.

BTW, my favorite daycare story regards a woman I know who started the ultimate daycare. Highly trained, well-paid, loving, great facility... After 3 years she closed it down because she saw that even the best situation was in the end a detriment to the kids.

Well, if she was a detriment to the kids in her care, it's probably a good thing she did close down. Studies have shown that kids in high-quality daycare outperform their peers in kindergarten, so not all daycare is a "detriment." Again, parents should ALWAYS investigate the best options in their community, which could include a nanny, home-based care, small daycare, large daycare or teenage mother's helper. The important thing is for a child to be healthy, happy and thriving.

 

[suffolkprincess]

Some families have a mother who *has* to work. Not because they are materialistic people, and not because they made bad life choices (although maybe some people do work for those reasons.)
And some families have a mother who *wants* to work. I am raising my hand RIGHT HERE to say that I *want* to work, even though I miss my little girl, and even though I do wish I could have stayed home with her a little longer than I did-- (hey-- there are plenty of days I just plain old want to stay home and get my nails done or paint the dining room )

But here is why I *want* to work:
1) Because I want my daughter to believe that she is valuable for what she knows and does, not because of her biology or genetics. I think working sets that example. I do not think that working is the only way to set that example.
2) Because I want my daughter to understand the world of work so she is prepared to participate in it to the extent that her future choices require. I do think that my "first job" hires who had working mothers have a somewhat more realistic view of the working world than those whose mothers didn't work. My mother didn't work for most of my childhood, and my husband's did and I know our attitudes towards the business world are pretty different. This is anecdotal evidence, I realize, but I happen to believe the things I see first hand.
But here is the best reason that I work (better even than "so I can pay the mortgage"):
3) Because I know that I can make a real difference for mothers who *need* to work. I am in HR and so I have a hand in writing policies for our company and therefore I can help our company be more family friendly (towards all employees, not just the women with kids.) If my company can be successful while offering good parental/ personal leave benefits, flexible scheduling, etc--then maybe other companies like mine will see that and be less hesitant to adopt similar policies. I may never get to effective change on a large scale, but I *can* in the world I touch daily, and I feel called to do that. Yes, called. Because God doesn't ONLY call people to missions, or stay-home mothering. God can and does call people to work for social justice.

Interestingly, both of the daycare providers I have worked with feel this *same* way. The dayhome provider we used felt a calling to provide a loving environment for children whose parents both work and that was why she ran a dayhome. She was entirely non-judgmental of the Mom's choices and was, in fact, really interested in our careers. Aside from other issues that made leaving a better choice for us, one of the BEST things about her was that she never ever *ever* made it seem to the children that there was anything wrong with Mommy leaving them there. And believe it or not, I interviewed several dayhome providers who also said they felt a calling and yet were VERY judgmental. How did I know? They kept referring to how they felt "sorry" for me and referred to the children as "poor little things." Well, enjoy your high horse-- but not on my dime.

Our current daycare situation is at a great center where the director also feels a calling to provide excellent care for families. She believes that her work is valuable and that she is contributing to making things better for women who work.

Bottom line: there is nothing evil or wrong or selfish in working outside of the home. EVERY study you can quote about how much better it is for moms to stay home had an agenda. There are studies on both sides. And there always will be because THERE IS NOT ONE WAY TO RAISE A CHILD.

Period.

The only thing that is universally true is that the parents have to love their children and show them that love all the time. And there are many many ways to do that.

I get very tired of all the backhanded criticisms of women that are behind all this anti-daycare, anti-schools posturing. Bottom line, those people think that the woman's place is in the home, and therefore the children's place is in the home. Fantastic. Good for you. But tell me, when you hearken back to the days of yore when things were so much better because moms were at home and taught their kids at home... what about the fact that the kids were actually usually performing labor in the home? Working class families in agrarian societies did not have idyllic days of Mom and child learning letters and going on nature walks. They had 12 hour days of hard labor with a few hours of lessons during the winter when the entire family coudln't be out working in the fields, cleaning, or making products for sale. Public education partially arose from a movement to get children out of factories and fields. Children being raised entirely at home and educated entirely at home also served to reinforce class divisions. There are many faults in public education today-- but at least children are allowed to have some semblance of equal opportunity (and yeah, I know it often doesn't work like that.) But I would go a little farther in this analysis to say that the decision to stay home and homeschool is also deeply classist both in the reality of the practice and in the desire to pursue it.

So, PLEASE-- be honest about yourselves-- you believe you are better than everyone else and that you are better mothers because you are willing to sacrifice so much for your children. That confidence is actually a great quality for a mother. Of course, so is humility. (That was snippy of me.)

You (the collective stay-home/ homeschooling you) need to acknowledge that you have nothing whatsoever to contribute to a discussion among mothers who have made a very different choice, because your starting position cannot allow for true discussion. Stop pretending that you aren't just trying to, best case, proselytize, and worse case, make others feel worse about their choices so that you can feel better about yours.

I see this all over the internet wherever working mothers try to discuss the practical challenges of being working mothers. It always gets turned into this ridiculous "Mommy War" silliness. So go back to your homeschool thread.

And let me pre-empt your response to me-- I am not being defensive because I doubt my choice. (But you can go ahead and think that.) I am just fed up and tired of not speaking up because I know that is how you will dismiss it.

I do not care what the better-than-me stay-home homeschooling Mommies think about me or my child. But I hope that at least something I might have said resonates with another working mother and helps her know that there is someone out there who thinks that she is the REAL hero.

 

[andysgirl360]

In Canada, more specifically Quebec, where I live, there are daycares that are subsidized by the govt. If you are lucky enough to get into one, it costs $7.00 a day. It was $5.00 until about a year ago. We were extremely lucky to get our daughter into one at the last minute (all set to put my DD in a new home daycare, when the person changed her mind and didn't open after all - blessing in disguise I think). We started off paying $26.00 a day, until about a year or so into it, when the center received their govt certification and subsidy. We are fortunate that the centre is owned by a very loving and caring woman, who loves my daughter (and all the kids) to death. They receive hot meals and snacks, and have music classes, computer classes, karate and exercise.

It is very hard to get your child into one of these daycares, the waiting lists can be up to 2 years. Basically you have to put your name down as soon as you find out you are pregnant. In Canada, we also have maternity leave up to one year (paid at 55%), so it works out to roughly 2 years before you need the daycare.

However, I feel your pain regarding expensive daycares, when I was pregnant we lived in Western Canada. In 2000, the daycare at the hospital I worked for was $900 a month!!!!! Same as my rent at the time! One of the reasons we moved back to Quebec.

Not really OT - but I thought I would share our experiences as it seems to be different from the US.

 

[jodifla]

Some families have a mother who *has* to work. Not because they are materialistic people, and not because they made bad life choices (although maybe some people do work for those reasons.)
And some families have a mother who *wants* to work. I am raising my hand RIGHT HERE to say that I *want* to work, even though I miss my little girl, and even though I do wish I could have stayed home with her a little longer than I did-- (hey-- there are plenty of days I just plain old want to stay home and get my nails done or paint the dining room )

But here is why I *want* to work:
1) Because I want my daughter to believe that she is valuable for what she knows and does, not because of her biology or genetics. I think working sets that example. I do not think that working is the only way to set that example.
2) Because I want my daughter to understand the world of work so she is prepared to participate in it to the extent that her future choices require. I do think that my "first job" hires who had working mothers have a somewhat more realistic view of the working world than those whose mothers didn't work. My mother didn't work for most of my childhood, and my husband's did and I know our attitudes towards the business world are pretty different. This is anecdotal evidence, I realize, but I happen to believe the things I see first hand.
But here is the best reason that I work (better even than "so I can pay the mortgage"):
3) Because I know that I can make a real difference for mothers who *need* to work. I am in HR and so I have a hand in writing policies for our company and therefore I can help our company be more family friendly (towards all employees, not just the women with kids.) If my company can be successful while offering good parental/ personal leave benefits, flexible scheduling, etc--then maybe other companies like mine will see that and be less hesitant to adopt similar policies. I may never get to effective change on a large scale, but I *can* in the world I touch daily, and I feel called to do that. Yes, called. Because God doesn't ONLY call people to missions, or stay-home mothering. God can and does call people to work for social justice.

Interestingly, both of the daycare providers I have worked with feel this *same* way. The dayhome provider we used felt a calling to provide a loving environment for children whose parents both work and that was why she ran a dayhome. She was entirely non-judgmental of the Mom's choices and was, in fact, really interested in our careers. Aside from other issues that made leaving a better choice for us, one of the BEST things about her was that she never ever *ever* made it seem to the children that there was anything wrong with Mommy leaving them there. And believe it or not, I interviewed several dayhome providers who also said they felt a calling and yet were VERY judgmental. How did I know? They kept referring to how they felt "sorry" for me and referred to the children as "poor little things." Well, enjoy your high horse-- but not on my dime.

Our current daycare situation is at a great center where the director also feels a calling to provide excellent care for families. She believes that her work is valuable and that she is contributing to making things better for women who work.

Bottom line: there is nothing evil or wrong or selfish in working outside of the home. EVERY study you can quote about how much better it is for moms to stay home had an agenda. There are studies on both sides. And there always will be because THERE IS NOT ONE WAY TO RAISE A CHILD.

Period.

The only thing that is universally true is that the parents have to love their children and show them that love all the time. And there are many many ways to do that.

I get very tired of all the backhanded criticisms of women that are behind all this anti-daycare, anti-schools posturing. Bottom line, those people think that the woman's place is in the home, and therefore the children's place is in the home. Fantastic. Good for you. But tell me, when you hearken back to the days of yore when things were so much better because moms were at home and taught their kids at home... what about the fact that the kids were actually usually performing labor in the home? Working class families in agrarian societies did not have idyllic days of Mom and child learning letters and going on nature walks. They had 12 hour days of hard labor with a few hours of lessons during the winter when the entire family coudln't be out working in the fields, cleaning, or making products for sale. Public education partially arose from a movement to get children out of factories and fields. Children being raised entirely at home and educated entirely at home also served to reinforce class divisions. There are many faults in public education today-- but at least children are allowed to have some semblance of equal opportunity (and yeah, I know it often doesn't work like that.) But I would go a little farther in this analysis to say that the decision to stay home and homeschool is also deeply classist both in the reality of the practice and in the desire to pursue it.

So, PLEASE-- be honest about yourselves-- you believe you are better than everyone else and that you are better mothers because you are willing to sacrifice so much for your children. That confidence is actually a great quality for a mother. Of course, so is humility. (That was snippy of me.)

You (the collective stay-home/ homeschooling you) need to acknowledge that you have nothing whatsoever to contribute to a discussion among mothers who have made a very different choice, because your starting position cannot allow for true discussion. Stop pretending that you aren't just trying to, best case, proselytize, and worse case, make others feel worse about their choices so that you can feel better about yours.

I see this all over the internet wherever working mothers try to discuss the practical challenges of being working mothers. It always gets turned into this ridiculous "Mommy War" silliness. So go back to your homeschool thread.

And let me pre-empt your response to me-- I am not being defensive because I doubt my choice. (But you can go ahead and think that.) I am just fed up and tired of not speaking up because I know that is how you will dismiss it.

I do not care what the better-than-me stay-home homeschooling Mommies think about me or my child. But I hope that at least something I might have said resonates with another working mother and helps her know that there is someone out there who thinks that she is the REAL hero.

Good for you!!!! Very well said.

 

[KristinU]

Some families have a mother who *has* to work. Not because they are materialistic people, and not because they made bad life choices (although maybe some people do work for those reasons.)
And some families have a mother who *wants* to work. I am raising my hand RIGHT HERE to say that I *want* to work, even though I miss my little girl, and even though I do wish I could have stayed home with her a little longer than I did-- (hey-- there are plenty of days I just plain old want to stay home and get my nails done or paint the dining room )

But here is why I *want* to work:
1) Because I want my daughter to believe that she is valuable for what she knows and does, not because of her biology or genetics. I think working sets that example. I do not think that working is the only way to set that example.
2) Because I want my daughter to understand the world of work so she is prepared to participate in it to the extent that her future choices require. I do think that my "first job" hires who had working mothers have a somewhat more realistic view of the working world than those whose mothers didn't work. My mother didn't work for most of my childhood, and my husband's did and I know our attitudes towards the business world are pretty different. This is anecdotal evidence, I realize, but I happen to believe the things I see first hand.
But here is the best reason that I work (better even than "so I can pay the mortgage"):
3) Because I know that I can make a real difference for mothers who *need* to work. I am in HR and so I have a hand in writing policies for our company and therefore I can help our company be more family friendly (towards all employees, not just the women with kids.) If my company can be successful while offering good parental/ personal leave benefits, flexible scheduling, etc--then maybe other companies like mine will see that and be less hesitant to adopt similar policies. I may never get to effective change on a large scale, but I *can* in the world I touch daily, and I feel called to do that. Yes, called. Because God doesn't ONLY call people to missions, or stay-home mothering. God can and does call people to work for social justice.

Interestingly, both of the daycare providers I have worked with feel this *same* way. The dayhome provider we used felt a calling to provide a loving environment for children whose parents both work and that was why she ran a dayhome. She was entirely non-judgmental of the Mom's choices and was, in fact, really interested in our careers. Aside from other issues that made leaving a better choice for us, one of the BEST things about her was that she never ever *ever* made it seem to the children that there was anything wrong with Mommy leaving them there. And believe it or not, I interviewed several dayhome providers who also said they felt a calling and yet were VERY judgmental. How did I know? They kept referring to how they felt "sorry" for me and referred to the children as "poor little things." Well, enjoy your high horse-- but not on my dime.

Our current daycare situation is at a great center where the director also feels a calling to provide excellent care for families. She believes that her work is valuable and that she is contributing to making things better for women who work.

Bottom line: there is nothing evil or wrong or selfish in working outside of the home. EVERY study you can quote about how much better it is for moms to stay home had an agenda. There are studies on both sides. And there always will be because THERE IS NOT ONE WAY TO RAISE A CHILD.

Period.

The only thing that is universally true is that the parents have to love their children and show them that love all the time. And there are many many ways to do that.

I get very tired of all the backhanded criticisms of women that are behind all this anti-daycare, anti-schools posturing. Bottom line, those people think that the woman's place is in the home, and therefore the children's place is in the home. Fantastic. Good for you. But tell me, when you hearken back to the days of yore when things were so much better because moms were at home and taught their kids at home... what about the fact that the kids were actually usually performing labor in the home? Working class families in agrarian societies did not have idyllic days of Mom and child learning letters and going on nature walks. They had 12 hour days of hard labor with a few hours of lessons during the winter when the entire family coudln't be out working in the fields, cleaning, or making products for sale. Public education partially arose from a movement to get children out of factories and fields. Children being raised entirely at home and educated entirely at home also served to reinforce class divisions. There are many faults in public education today-- but at least children are allowed to have some semblance of equal opportunity (and yeah, I know it often doesn't work like that.) But I would go a little farther in this analysis to say that the decision to stay home and homeschool is also deeply classist both in the reality of the practice and in the desire to pursue it.

So, PLEASE-- be honest about yourselves-- you believe you are better than everyone else and that you are better mothers because you are willing to sacrifice so much for your children. That confidence is actually a great quality for a mother. Of course, so is humility. (That was snippy of me.)

You (the collective stay-home/ homeschooling you) need to acknowledge that you have nothing whatsoever to contribute to a discussion among mothers who have made a very different choice, because your starting position cannot allow for true discussion. Stop pretending that you aren't just trying to, best case, proselytize, and worse case, make others feel worse about their choices so that you can feel better about yours.

I see this all over the internet wherever working mothers try to discuss the practical challenges of being working mothers. It always gets turned into this ridiculous "Mommy War" silliness. So go back to your homeschool thread.

And let me pre-empt your response to me-- I am not being defensive because I doubt my choice. (But you can go ahead and think that.) I am just fed up and tired of not speaking up because I know that is how you will dismiss it.

I do not care what the better-than-me stay-home homeschooling Mommies think about me or my child. But I hope that at least something I might have said resonates with another working mother and helps her know that there is someone out there who thinks that she is the REAL hero.

Wow, some great points! I, too, am a working mom who wants to work. I know myself well and know that I am a better mom because I don't stay at home with my DS. I applaud folks (moms and dads) that do, but like you said - we all have different callings

 

[noodleknitter]

Gee...do you always react in such a hostile manner to people who have different opinions?

FTR, I've worked outside the home (thus my need for childcare), inside the home, and been a sahm. I worked in daycares, as an au pair, Alcohol and drug counselor, Licensed Social Worker, Public Mental Health, and as a College Prof and counselor. My mom was a working single mom, who reared 4 of us on a nurses salary and hours, wishing that she could spend more time with us.

I liked home caregivers for the reasons listed. Others like institutions, and have listed the reasons.

I've launched three into the world with better brains than mine, and who believe that life and people are basically good, and that everything worth doing is worth doing well. Not a bad track record. They don't seem to have suffered to horribly for not being bitten in preschool.

So I like my choices better than I like other choices. Why would you have such an isssue with that. You obviously have some holier than thou feelings going on also. Good for you. Variety is what makes the world go round.

This is not the way to live life... So, take a deep breath and have a lovely weekend.

 

[sara74]

I work. I get tired. I don't need to work. DH makes a great living. But I wanted to be a dentist when I was 15. I busted my behind to get through dental school and I enjoy my patients. I enjoy sharing my life with them as they do with me. We have cried over lost spouses and parents, swapped stories (lots of Disney ones!) and brightened each others' days many, many times.

And if you think a dentist can't brighten your day, you haven't seen me! (just kidding!)

And for all the reasons that suffolkprincess gave, I will continue to work. Not because I need the money, but because I make a difference in other people's lives, and my childrens' lives, for being a professional as well as a mother.

THERE IS NOT ONE WAY TO RAISE A CHILD.

Period.

The only thing that is universally true is that the parents have to love their children and show them that love all the time. And there are many many ways to do that.

That is what it is all about!!!!! If I could have been just half as articulate when the lovely woman at the park picked up her child and walked away from me when I told her that I work!

But I hope that at least something I might have said resonates with another working mother and helps her know that there is someone out there who thinks that she is the REAL hero.

You've resonated a smile right onto my face! Thanks for sharing such a thoughtful and well-worded post.


Now to go really OT ------- does anyone know of a board like this for working moms?

 

[sara74]

Gee...do you always react in such a hostile manner to people who have different opinions?

This is not the way to live life... So, take a deep breath and have a lovely weekend.

Is the flaming smilie representing your feelings or those of suffolkprincess? I think there was an edge to her post, but I don't think she is losing sleep over this, just articulating the feelings of many of us who don't have such a way with words!

I, too, am tired of defending my desire to work. When questioned, I say I work in a dental office, not that I am the doctor. That tends to weed out the people who would respect me for a doctorate and just gets me down to those who judge me for working. I am not saying that you are judging me, or others, for working, I am just saying that it is pretty sad that I need a strategy for dealing with the numbers of people who judge me for enjoying my career. And I applaud anyone who can put a voice to my feelings. I'm not furious, nor does suffolkprincess seem to be, just tired of debating something so personal to every family.

 

[Alicnwondrln]

daycare around here is crazy
full time for a toddler is 1195 a month

 

[suffolkprincess]

to sara74 for your jumping in and getting my back.

You sound like a great dentist and a great mom.

and, no-- I don't know of any great boards for working moms. Most boards get lots of static from trolls or just people who feel very strongly that they are right and its their duty to tell everyone...

there is a great blog, "ask moxie" (http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/) that is one of the most non-judgmental parenting/ mothering blogs I have ever found. the author is blessed with large amounts of common sense and is a great writer. She happens to stay home, but lots of her readers/ commenters work out of the home, so every topic that comes up gets a lot of fair discussion. check it out!

and... we can always start threads here.

see you around!