Class group projects - UGH!!!!

[December99]

Okay, just venting my frustration and please tell me I'm not alone on this. Scene - 7th grade groups working on a group book report

Several months ago the 7th grade class that my dd is in started reading 'Devils Arithmetic' which is a book about the Holocaust (I have not had a chance to finish reading it yet but based on what dd has told me this is what it's about). Groups were divied up to 3 kids in a group and they have to work on visual displays, the actual report, and information for the report and then present this together. Now, they began reading this book shortly after Christmas break (I believe) and watch the movie (with parental approval) and then were to do this report. They were divied into groups approximately 2 months ago and started working on this in school. Well they apparently ran out of work days and now this is due on Monday.

Quick flash forward - today the kids are off school in our school due to a Diocese Teacher Day and the kids were hoping to get together to finish this project. Flash forward to about 30 minutes ago - I get a call from one parent asking if my dd had heard from the kid that had offered his house to work on this. There are 2 girls (including my dd) and this boy. The 2 girls called the boy last night to see if he had gotten approval for them to come to his house to work today. He didn't know and needed to talk to his parents and he would call them back. Girls still haven't heard from this kid yet. So one parent calls me asking if I know what's going on - I just got info from dd two nights ago about needing to get together to do this. I work and dh works so we couldn't offer our house cause I don't like people there when we are not home (they are only 13). So I email this boys parent who works at the same place I work and this other parent works. He hadn't a clue either about this project so calls home to see if his other son can be there for the kids to meet.

Now, in the meantime - I'm on the phone basically chewing dd out because this has been so unplanned. They knew 2 months ago when this was due and that they may need to meet to work on this outside of school. And why didn't they get the parents involved if they needed help arranging a time to get together before this?

Do you have this problem??? And another problem I have is why do these teachers expect these kids to be able to get together outside of school when parents work???? I don't get it - they should have been given plenty of time in school to complete this and the teach should have been following up on what was going on with each groups project - which she did not do.

Okay - frustration and small vent over......I can't wait until she turns 18!!!!!

 

[FOJMO]

Here's one more case in point about what are the kids' responsibility and what are the teachers'.

It sounds as if there was plenty of worktime given during school for this, but if they run out, it's only natural that they'll have to devote some outside time to it at home.

The reason they are assigned to work in groups is to prepare them for the outside world someday, when they will HAVE to coordinate with others in the working world and plan accordingly. That is part and parcel of the project itself.

Your DD, as well as the other girl and boy, had plenty of time to speak together and decide if they were going to need more time at someone's home and someone needed to take the leadership role. Specific tasks needed to be assigned between each of them and then it could be put together for the final project.

As for you and your DH working, what's wrong with them getting together in the evening (tonight) or over this weekend?

If you think it's bad in 7th grade, and you can't wait until she turns 18, it doesn't get any better, believe me! Unless someone on the "team" takes a leadership role, I'm afraid each member tends to think "someone else is taking care of it".

Good luck!

 

[sharbear]

I also have a 7th grade DD and she has the History report. It is a nightmare. She's the only girl and she makes times to meet and the kids don't show up. They cancel the meetings and don't tell her, it's a mess! I hate group projects, esp. when they can't pick their groups. On group projects that she has control of who's on it go fine. But the problem is when only some of the people in the group don't want to work or understand about deadlines. I told one of the other mothers that my DD has a lot of things going on and that she won't be available close to the time of the report being due, so the group needs to meet now. We'll see if anything happens.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

Do you have this problem???

yep. I hated group projects when I was in college and it was impossible to coordinate schedules. I hate them even more as a parent --- my kids can't drive themselves to a meeting place.

I also agree that they were probably given plenty of time to complete the project in class and being the total goof offs that kids tend to be, spent the time gossiping and playing around.

So the choices are --- do the parents bear the brunt of it and rearrange the lives of the entire family to bail them out.....or do you make them pay the price of not working efficiently during class time? Good Luck!

Your DD, as well as the other girl and boy, had plenty of time to speak together and decide if they were going to need more time at someone's home and someone needed to take the leadership role. Specific tasks needed to be assigned between each of them and then it could be put together for the final project.

In an ideal world yes. But most adults that I have worked with have been unable to accomplish such a Utopia. Of course a group of 7th graders is going to screw it up!

 

[CRB#33]

It seems to be the way of sixth and seventh grades to have tons of "team" projects.

Drives me NUTS!!!

I have several problems with this kind of work. First of all, it penalizes the student who wants to work hard. There are many 6th and 7th graders who consider work their last priority .

Second of all, if it is not to be done in class, this puts a major strain on families who are already busy beyond belief to find a time and a place to get 4 pre-teen or teenagers together. Unrealistic.

My DD is number 1 in her class, so you can only imagine what kind of motivation the other kids in her team had to do any really work. Most of the kids she got assigned to work with did nothing but take advantage of her and the only thing the teachers say is that she needs to be more assertive in getting her teammates to work harder. Oh right.

I understand that they are trying to teach this age to work as a team, but they should be done through class activities, not reports and assignements.

 

[December99]

.

As for you and your DH working, what's wrong with them getting together in the evening (tonight) or over this weekend?

Well....the reason for not being able to do this tonight or the rest of the weekend is because...THEY ONLY TOLD US ABOUT THIS LAST NIGHT!!!! And all of us already had plans for this weekend. The evening has been offered as a suggestion but because the parents didn't know what the heck was going on - we went ahead and all made family plans months ago. And the one parent didn't even know about this project until I emailed him this morning trying to find out what we could do to get them together! That's the problem!

And you know what else....my dd is ALWAYS stuck getting things arranged and then everyone ****s on her because she's basically an outcast in her class so this time I told her to let one of the other kids organize this. And I probably would do that again. She should NOT always have to be the one to get everyone organized. That is what has made me such a compulsive volunteer...because I am the organizer and I refuse to let that happen to her at age 13.

Specific tasks needed to be assigned between each of them and then it could be put together for the final project.

Specific tasks were assigned - that's why they have to get together as a group to finish this product. They each took on 3 items for this project and now they have to put the items together to finish it.

 

[FOJMO]

Originally posted by Toby'sFriend
In an ideal world yes. But most adults that I have worked with have been unable to accomplish such a Utopia. Of course a group of 7th graders is going to screw it up!

Not an ideal world, but the REAL world. If you are in a working environment in your daily life, you know that nothing is going to get done unless there are meetings and task forces. This is what projects like this are preparing them for. Communication. Goals. Assignments. It has to start someplace.

AND, if you are depending on someone else for pieces to the project in the working environment and they do not come through, then that's when working past the confines of the regular workday is required or working weekends to accomplish it.

It's not an IDEAL world in school nor in the working environment, but it is reality. And that is what they are being prepared for. Sometimes letdowns when someone else doesn't pull their weight. Frustration when you don't have enough hours in a day. But also a sense of accomplishment when it all DOES come together.

I'm sure this is part of the project grade -- whether or not they were able to accomplish their goal as a TEAM. That's just as important as the individual pieces of the project.

So, while I do sympathize with all of the parental frustrations, it is NOT the teacher's responsibility.

As far as family plans go, if at all possible, try to change them to help your child. But I would emphasize to your child that this should be avoided in the future because you may not be able to change your family's plans as readily next time.

December99 -- I know it's hard when someone like your DD is always the one to be the organizer. But that is a strength that has good points, too. So, it's not always a detriment to be the leader. There are always going to be leaders and followers. She just has to know in the future when to be able to say "no" and when it will be necessary to "pick up and carry the ball". It's going to look great on her resume someday to say she was the President of some club or organization or maybe even her CLASS!

 

[bekkiz]

I'm not sure why the teacher chooses to use groupwork, perhaps she's read a few things about it, but this does not sound like well organized groupwork (also called Complex Instruction)

Groupwork should always be completed in class, but teachers should also not let it be taken home. If they can't finish it in class, they don't finish it at all. It also should be structured with specific roles and norms to guide the group.

Here's a great article on the importance of groupwork:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/step/academics/winter03/284_winter03/GroupworthyTasks.pdf

 

[December99]

Okay...and now I just changed what I had written here because this isn't worth the battle. I'm in the wrong and can't do right.

 

[Colleen A.]

My DD Jeana, 6th grade, informed me tonight that a GROUP of classmates are coming here Sunday to work on a group project! I hate surprises!

 

[momof2OH]

December99 ~ I agree whole heartly with you on this subject. I hate group projects myself. My DD who is 8th grade is doing one with two other girls. They were allowed to pick their groups and it still isn't going well at all. They are all friends and still fighting over everything. Theirs is a science project. They have to design and make a Science magazine. It is to include 5 articles and 3 games that are to be related to 3 of the articles. It has become a HUGE disaster, which I knew it would. They are doing it all in class because I refused to have her do anything outside of school, except for her own parts of the project. I look at it this way: if the teacher wants them to work in a group, which is fine with me, they are going to do it in school. My car does not say Taxi on top of it!! Besides the milage is killing the car.
I also like others have posted don't like group projects because if the others in the group don't get their parts done the rest are affected. That is not fair. A child in 6th - 8th grades cannot force another child to do something and it is absurd for a teacher to think they can.

 

[bfeller]

As has been mentioned group work is a part of life. It only gets harder as you get older. Middle School age kids seem to always have a group project. In my experience with group work, the group was always allowed time to complete the project in class. As a mother and as a substitute teacher I know that students at this age do not always manage their time wisely. The only way to learn this time management is through experience. Honestly, it is up to the team members on how to accomplish their goal. I know that this next comment is going to sound rather harsh but if the team does not complete their task within the time that has been allotted to them in class it is their decision on how to correct it. If it means meeting after school then that is the sacrifice that must be made. I am sure most of us have worked extra hours at one time or another. And if this is the first that a parent has heard about the project then shame on the student. Then maybe the student isn't on top of their studies as the parent thinks. A two working parent household is not an excuse to not support your child with this project. Sacrifices have to made by all concerned. If they can't meet after school then the evening may be the best time. Yes, I know that we all are very busy, but just this one time, can't the learning process be the priority?

As for the grade, it has been my experience that most teachers give a group grade and an individual grade for this type of project. Normally, the group grade is weighted less. So the student earns the grade that he/she receives.

Last by not least, I have this parting comment. Students are responsible for assignments. Support them, but do not make excuses for them. They will be better responsible adults in the future.

 

[LucyStorm]

While I don't think you are wrong in your frustration Chris, I think that your frustration should be with your daughter and not the assignment. Two months is plenty of time to get that type of assignment done.

Personally, what I would do, and have done, is not make the sacrifice to my plan, but allow the child to take the logical consequences of their inaction. Bailing her out by sacrificing your plans is not helping her. You won't be there in the work world if she and her coworkers don't finish a project on time and get in trouble or fired because of it. I think that there is a life lesson to be learned here that is at least as important if not more important than the actual assignment. That is that you are responsible for your actions (or in this case, inaction) and if the consequence is a lower grade, so be it, you chose not to do what you needed to do to get the better grade. What many parents fail to see is that the grade belongs to the student and not to the parent. It should not be a reflection on you if she gets a poor grade on this assignment because she did not do what she should have. 13 is plenty old enough to learn this.

((((hugs)))) Chris. Tough love sometimes is toughest on the parent.

 

[MerryPoppins]

You sound frustrated. I'm so sorry. Hope it all works out.

I also hate group projects that need to be done outside class. It's so easy for some members of the group to expect the others to "carry" the project while they do nothing. My son had a project this year (9th grade) where a group of 5 were to write a story together and actually make the book. Three of the group members were worthless and my son and the other student had to do the project alone or get a bad grade.

And with working parents and outside activities it is often hard to get together outside of school. Of course, it sounds like in your daughter's case they had lots of time, but I think group projects should be completed during school and save home projects for the lone student.

 

[LvsTnk]

I hate group projects, there is always the student who doesn't pull their weight.

It only becomes a life lesson for some when you substitute a paycheck for a letter grade. Too many group projects are just a way for some students to get out of doing the work.

 

[BibbidiBobbidiBOO]

We went through this in 6th grade this year. The teacher provided TWO class days for this huge project. So I split the assignment in half and the other mother agreed. Then we picked up the disk of the other childs work on Word that was complete and any other maps, charts he had drawn. My ds simply fit eveything together on Word and printed it out and we put the pages together in the binder. I know you can't do all group projects this way, but it worked this time. I know many of the kids did not tell parents until the weekend before and it was a major mess. SO many parents complained the teacher changed the next project to a solo one ! I hate group projects, period. And I am a SAHM-I guess I feel more of the burden to be the parent organizer.