Buy a little more than we need and rent the extra?

[_auroraborealis_]

If you look at the lists put out by some of the brokers of "the requests they need points for," the hot demands are exactly what you think they are, with a side order of AKV. David's uses a premium/non-premium model, where premium resorts in Home Resort are +$2 for both booking cost and reimbursement.

I can see AKV possibly being deemed premium at some point.

I think a lot of renters don't get their requests fulfilled, but I'm not sure that's on pricing model to "fix." There is high demand for small resorts. There is demand for really large point bookings. I suspect none of us want to imagine how many post-7-month requests for AKV Value or BWV Standard are submitted.

FWIW, one of the other brokers has their list of requests open to DVC members to view, and has 7+ opens within 7 months, 20+ AKV listings (including someone needing 1k points), and a fairly lengthy backlog for Poly as well. Even resorts with shorter lists have some tough-to-fulfill booking requests (900+ points at VGF, 1k+ points at BLT, both in single requests).

In other words, rental has some of the same pressures as ownership booking in the sense of timing and supply, because bookings use owner points, without the limiter of being restricted to owners looking for the bookings.

 

[DisBuckMan]

If you prefer concierge, and as you stated you "almost always stay 9 nights", 300 points isn't enough points to cover 9 nights even in the lowest season (Adventure) for a 1br, and is barely enough to cover savanna view for 9 nights in only Adventure and Choice season. 300 points will get you 6 nights in a 2br club level in Adventure season only, and 7 nights in a savanna view in Adventure season.

Study the points charts closely before determining how many points you "need".

 

[DisBuckMan]

If you pay cash, maybe it makes sense. If you finance, no way. In reality, IMHO, if you can't pay cash you really can't afford DVC.

Agree 100%.

 

[LAX]

If you look at the lists put out by some of the brokers of "the requests they need points for," the hot demands are exactly what you think they are, with a side order of AKV. David's uses a premium/non-premium model, where premium resorts in Home Resort are +$2 for both booking cost and reimbursement.

I can see AKV possibly being deemed premium at some point.

I think a lot of renters don't get their requests fulfilled, but I'm not sure that's on pricing model to "fix." There is high demand for small resorts. There is demand for really large point bookings. I suspect none of us want to imagine how many post-7-month requests for AKV Value or BWV Standard are submitted.

FWIW, one of the other brokers has their list of requests open to DVC members to view, and has 7+ opens within 7 months, 20+ AKV listings (including someone needing 1k points), and a fairly lengthy backlog for Poly as well. Even resorts with shorter lists have some tough-to-fulfill booking requests (900+ points at VGF, 1k+ points at BLT, both in single requests).

In other words, rental has some of the same pressures as ownership booking in the sense of timing and supply, because bookings use owner points, without the limiter of being restricted to owners looking for the bookings.

I didn't realize the rental agencies publish their demands, but I doubt most of the demands stem from "unrealistic" requests such as AKV value or BWV standard at 7 months. As far as AKV is concerned, it looks to be a case of rental agencies not offering attractive enough reimbursement (no premium resort bonus) for owners to rent out their points through them. As for the smaller resorts, I think a bump in reimbursement should get them a bigger pool of those points to fill requests. Is that all it takes to fix the issues? I don't know. Is the margin already too thin to make up for in volume?? Only the rental agency operators know.

LAX

 

[DanaHesson]

If you prefer concierge, and as you stated you "almost always stay 9 nights", 300 points isn't enough points to cover 9 nights even in the lowest season (Adventure) for a 1br, and is barely enough to cover savanna view for 9 nights in only Adventure and Choice season. 300 points will get you 6 nights in a 2br club level in Adventure season only, and 7 nights in a savanna view in Adventure season.

Study the points charts closely before determining how many points you "need".

Yes we have, and I'm well aware. That's what I think we need now. That's why I was trying to find out if we buy what we will EVENTUALLY need NOW, if we can rent the extra points until we start booking a two bedroom. And from what I understand, concierge are difficult to book enemies at 11 months out, so I know we can't count on that

 

[CaliAdventurer]

I didn't realize the rental agencies publish their demands, but I doubt most of the demands stem from "unrealistic" requests such as AKV value or BWV standard at 7 months. As far as AKV is concerned, it looks to be a case of rental agencies not offering attractive enough reimbursement (no premium resort bonus) for owners to rent out their points through them. As for the smaller resorts, I think a bump in reimbursement should get them a bigger pool of those points to fill requests. Is that all it takes to fix the issues? I don't know. Is the margin already too thin to make up for in volume?? Only the rental agency operators know.

LAX

I can tell you earlier this year when we were working with Daves and the Other One that we were on a wait list for both. We wanted (as always) a large point rental at VGF or BLT. AKV actually had a long line waiting for points but availibilty wasn't an issue, then BLT and VGF had the shortest line (poss due to the points jump) so we went there and it only took about a week to get a member who had to bank and or borrow (they said so) so they wanted a very firm yes before they would make the res and wanted payment same day in full, no givesies backsies.

As a renter, I can say that the prices have been going up $1 or so per point per year it seems. There is certainly a line where we say. nope, we'll go direct deluxe resort with the flexibility and $200 deposit with dining plan and tickets upfront. And $16-18 per point would be that line. In fact, i did go direct off season for a Poly Villa for those reasons earlier this year because a studio is closer to a reg room and I get it cleaned every day, all the TP I want etc. I would also NEVER rent from any but the big, polished brokers and wouldn't even consider private party, even at a lower price per point. WAY too much risk.

As an owner, I'm not sure that $13/14 vs $11 would entice me to rent my points instead of using them. Either 1) I need the money so I rent at whatever the price or 2) I can't use the points and any recovery is way better than none so for me, I can't see a couple bucks making a difference. I believe this is down to a recovering economy and knowledge that renting points is even a thing and the big brokers making it simple as pie to make a res. I think if you've got points to rent they them and if they lower their margin, it's prob to beat the competition. Or all of that could be totally off base. Lol

 

[Lakegirl]

If you can pay cash buy more. I think a lot of people end up adding on because you just never seem to have enough points. On e you start staying DVC it becomes an addiction. If you buy more now you won't have to pay closing costs again and points have just kept rising in costs.

 

[DisBuckMan]

Yes we have, and I'm well aware. That's what I think we need now. That's why I was trying to find out if we buy what we will EVENTUALLY need NOW, if we can rent the extra points until we start booking a two bedroom. And from what I understand, concierge are difficult to book enemies at 11 months out, so I know we can't count on that

1br club (concierge) level is actually fairly easy to book at 11 months...it's nothing like studio and 2br. Matter of fact, it can be available at the 7 month booking window sometimes.

As an example, I just looked at availability in 1br club level at AKV....there is currently 6 consecutive nights in April (6 months out) and other nights, 6 consecutive nights in May (7 months) and other nights, half of June is wide open, 10 consecutive nights in July with several other scattered nights, a third of August, and almost all of September that is bookable.

 

[Deb & Bill]

One thing to be aware of regarding the concierge villas at Jambo House. The views are terrible.

 

[LAX]

I can tell you earlier this year when we were working with Daves and the Other One that we were on a wait list for both. We wanted (as always) a large point rental at VGF or BLT. AKV actually had a long line waiting for points but availibilty wasn't an issue, then BLT and VGF had the shortest line (poss due to the points jump) so we went there and it only took about a week to get a member who had to bank and or borrow (they said so) so they wanted a very firm yes before they would make the res and wanted payment same day in full, no givesies backsies.

As a renter, I can say that the prices have been going up $1 or so per point per year it seems. There is certainly a line where we say. nope, we'll go direct deluxe resort with the flexibility and $200 deposit with dining plan and tickets upfront. And $16-18 per point would be that line. In fact, i did go direct off season for a Poly Villa for those reasons earlier this year because a studio is closer to a reg room and I get it cleaned every day, all the TP I want etc. I would also NEVER rent from any but the big, polished brokers and wouldn't even consider private party, even at a lower price per point. WAY too much risk.

As an owner, I'm not sure that $13/14 vs $11 would entice me to rent my points instead of using them. Either 1) I need the money so I rent at whatever the price or 2) I can't use the points and any recovery is way better than none so for me, I can't see a couple bucks making a difference. I believe this is down to a recovering economy and knowledge that renting points is even a thing and the big brokers making it simple as pie to make a res. I think if you've got points to rent they them and if they lower their margin, it's prob to beat the competition. Or all of that could be totally off base. Lol

I wasn't talking about enticing owners to rent over using the points themselves. I was talking about getting those that currently rent on their own to use the agency's service by upping the payout to owners. I think that's a decent pool of available points.

I agree that private rentals can pose significant risks to the renters, but the owners as well, IMHO. That's probably why few of these rental agencies have been able to carve out a niche for themselves.

LAX

 

[CaliAdventurer]

I wasn't talking about enticing owners to rent over using the points themselves. I was talking about getting those that currently rent on their own to use the agency's service by upping the payout to owners. I think that's a decent pool of available points.

I agree that private rentals can pose significant risks to the renters, but the owners as well, IMHO. That's probably why few of these rental agencies have been able to carve out a niche for themselves.

LAX

Good point! Yeah, I would never trust an ebay ad for a week's vacation! Nor would I hand 8k to anyone without an escrow.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I wasn't talking about enticing owners to rent over using the points themselves. I was talking about getting those that currently rent on their own to use the agency's service by upping the payout to owners. I think that's a decent pool of available points.

I agree that private rentals can pose significant risks to the renters, but the owners as well, IMHO. That's probably why few of these rental agencies have been able to carve out a niche for themselves.

LAX

Except the brokers can't really provide any more insurance against risk over a private owner. It's just a concept that renters have unwisely accepted as fool proof and risk free. Like depending that Paypal will protect you with a timeshare rental.

 

[CarolMN]

Except the brokers can't really provide any more insurance against risk over a private owner. It's just a concept that renters have unwisely accepted as fool proof and risk free. Like depending that Paypal will protect you with a timeshare rental.

The brokers cannot guarantee that one of their ownera won't cancel the reservation or that DVC won't cancel it if the owner hasn't been paying the loan & annual dues. HOWEVER, the brokers will return the renter's money if that happens. (And AFAIK, they all do or would if that happens).

If a reservation gets cancelled, those who arranged their rental directly with the owner are much more likely to lose the money they paid for the reservation. (In fact, I'm not aware of anyone who actually received money back in the event of a cancellation by the owner or DVC (both of which are very rare).

That's the difference in risk between using a broker and working with an owner directly. Some are willing to pay the extra for the reduced risk of using a broker. Some are OK with the small amount of additional risk if the price is right.

 

[DisneyRegulars]

One thing to take into consideration from experience...If you need the rental income in order to be able to afford the extra points, then DON'T DO IT!! In my limited experience (sample size of 1 family) we bought extra points to rent out, and it's been 4-5 years now, and we have yet to rent out a single point. The points are waaaay to tempting to use for yourself. Whether it be splurging to stay at a more expensive resort, or getting the 2 bedroom now and inviting family, you will find a million ways to use those extra points. If you can afford the extra points and don't need the rental income, then I think it's a find idea, but don't buy them if you are dependent on that income, because in my experience, unless you are super disciplined, it won't happen.

 

[Quellman]

I know the last few posts have thread drift, but having a few extra points is no big deal. Just bank the excess points each year. We typically have anywhere between 15-25 points left over each year. So by rolling them over we will eventually have enough points banked to upgrade our accommodation to a grand villa. If you didn't want to do that, you would still be rolling over your points until you have enough to meet whatever minimum is required for the rental agencies. I don't see a problem with having a few extra points left over.

We do have 2 contracts with identical use years and point amounts, which would make it easier to see later on. You should generally be OK with a 250-300 point contract finding a buyer if you ever resell. Having an excess of 100 points that you bank every year sounds pretty wasteful to me and I wouldn't want to deal with the risk. I was reading another thread where the OP mentioned that they are having a harder time finding private renters this year than they have in the past and were trying to figure out why. Downturn? DVC renters have unrealistic expectations of their "savings" (ie. $8 per point vs $14)? People are looking for shorter and shorter trips, not the usual week? Obviously this is a juxtaposition to the above comments about how Davids needs points badly. In summary: don't count on being able to rent points.

 

[DVCcurious]

I can see AKV possibly being deemed premium at some point.

Nope. Premium status is based on number of rooms/points for that resort.

The premium resorts are small. The non-premium resorts are gigantic. Unless AKV gets cut in half somehow it will never be a premium resort.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Nope. Premium status is based on number of rooms/points for that resort.

The premium resorts are small. The non-premium resorts are gigantic. Unless AKV gets cut in half somehow it will never be a premium resort.

HHi and VB are considered non-premium. Neither is large. Now, they are off-property, yes.

I think a broker can declare premium point and payout for whatever they please. To get AKV owners renting inside 7 months, they may need to pay that home resort premium.

 

[LAX]

HHi and VB are considered non-premium. Neither is large. Now, they are off-property, yes.

I think a broker can declare premium point and payout for whatever they please. To get AKV owners renting inside 7 months, they may need to pay that home resort premium.

AUL is pretty big, but it's considered a premium resort. Ultimately, it's the renters that determine which resort is considered premium. If enough renters are willing to pay the premium rate to reserve AKV between the 7 and 11 month windows, then it would be prudent for the rental agencies to up the payout to attract AKV owners to rent out their points to fill those requests.

LAX

 

[Dean]

I wasn't talking about enticing owners to rent over using the points themselves. I was talking about getting those that currently rent on their own to use the agency's service by upping the payout to owners. I think that's a decent pool of available points.

I agree that private rentals can pose significant risks to the renters, but the owners as well, IMHO. That's probably why few of these rental agencies have been able to carve out a niche for themselves.

LAX

Except the brokers can't really provide any more insurance against risk over a private owner. It's just a concept that renters have unwisely accepted as fool proof and risk free. Like depending that Paypal will protect you with a timeshare rental.

IMO a broker can be a little safer than the average but they are potentially less flexible as well. I believe the safest rental situation is where you work with someone you know and trust and have some idea of their situation. Esp if all parties are clear. Still a private rental (even through a broker) has more risk than a direct rental or ownership stay (which has more risk than direct also) but should provide sufficient savings to justify the risk. If it doesn't, don't do it.

 

[CarolMN]

......(snip)..... I was reading another thread where the OP mentioned that they are having a harder time finding private renters this year than they have in the past and were trying to figure out why. Downturn? DVC renters have unrealistic expectations of their "savings" (ie. $8 per point vs $14)? People are looking for shorter and shorter trips, not the usual week? Obviously this is a juxtaposition to the above comments about how Davids needs points badly. In summary: don't count on being able to rent points.

Think I found the thread you refer to on another board. The OP of that thread rents on the high end of the range ($16 pp & up), does not want to do smaller rentals (under 100 points) and apparently does quite a bit of renting on spec. IMO, that narrows her market, especially if she is looking for renters on the Disney boards, ebay, redweek, etc.

I think in today's environment, it's difficult for a new owner to break into the rental market. From what I can tell, a large majority of prospective renters would prefer to work with an established broker or an individual with a good posting history on a particular online community. I would not advise anyone to buy more than they need with the thought of renting the extras.

 

[DenLo]

I know the last few posts have thread drift, but having a few extra points is no big deal. Just bank the excess points each year. We typically have anywhere between 15-25 points left over each year. So by rolling them over we will eventually have enough points banked to upgrade our accommodation to a grand villa. If you didn't want to do that, you would still be rolling over your points until you have enough to meet whatever minimum is required for the rental agencies. I don't see a problem with having a few extra points left over. . . . . .

Or add a night on every other year.

 

[Brian Noble]

I'll offer the contrarian view---if anything, I'd recommend under-buying just a little bit, and borrowing to make up the difference each year. Eventually, you'll need to take a break when the well runs dry. But, if you are like most others, you may find that WDW becomes a little "been there, done that" after a while, and taking a break and vacationing elsewhere might be just the ticket.

Yes, if you add on later you'll have to pay additional closing costs. But, on the other hand, you save yourself the work and hassle of dealing with renting out points. Even with a broker, you have to do some of the work.

 

[larissawbb]

1br club (concierge) level is actually fairly easy to book at 11 months...it's nothing like studio and 2br. Matter of fact, it can be available at the 7 month booking window sometimes.

As an example, I just looked at availability in 1br club level at AKV....there is currently 6 consecutive nights in April (6 months out) and other nights, 6 consecutive nights in May (7 months) and other nights, half of June is wide open, 10 consecutive nights in July with several other scattered nights, a third of August, and almost all of September that is bookable.

How hard is it to book the value 2 bedroom villas at 11 months?

 

[Dean]

I'll offer the contrarian view---if anything, I'd recommend under-buying just a little bit, and borrowing to make up the difference each year. Eventually, you'll need to take a break when the well runs dry. But, if you are like most others, you may find that WDW becomes a little "been there, done that" after a while, and taking a break and vacationing elsewhere might be just the ticket.

Yes, if you add on later you'll have to pay additional closing costs. But, on the other hand, you save yourself the work and hassle of dealing with renting out points. Even with a broker, you have to do some of the work.

To me, it depends. For those looking at smaller contracts, I'd likely never underbuy. For those looking larger I generally would esp if over 300. For the in between situations is depends on specifics including how educated they are both with information an experience. Once one gets to where they can have 2 full sized contracts, that's where I'd start to consider having multiple and in many cases, do one and try it for a year to 2.

 

[DisBuckMan]

How hard is it to book the value 2 bedroom villas at 11 months?

As an owner, it's tough, but not impossible by any means. As a renter, it's can be *nearly* impossible....but there's still a chance if you can connect with an owner willing to put in the effort to book right at the 11 month mark.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Think I found the thread you refer to on another board. The OP of that thread rents on the high end of the range ($16 pp & up), does not want to do smaller rentals (under 100 points) and apparently does quite a bit of renting on spec. IMO, that narrows her market, especially if she is looking for renters on the Disney boards, ebay, redweek, etc.

I think in today's environment, it's difficult for a new owner to break into the rental market. From what I can tell, a large majority of prospective renters would prefer to work with an established broker or an individual with a good posting history on a particular online community. I would not advise anyone to buy more than they need with the thought of renting the extras.

And the inexperienced renter wants a studio for three or four nights, during F&W at BWV or BCV two months before the festival starts and only wants to pay $8-10 a point. The more experienced renters have probably bought their own points to use.