Are Disney parks no longer for the Middle class?

[Worfiedoodles]

Median Income is relative to area -- The US government (HUD) produces annual listings of what constitutes low-, very low- and extremely low-income annually, based on Metropolitan Statistical Area. I live in the Boston-Cambridge-Quincy MSA.

Breaking it down for a family of four in FY19:

100% Area Median Income: $113,300
80% AMI (Low Income): $90,650
50% AMI (Very Low Income) : $56,650
30% AMI (Exrremely Low Income): $34,000

This means the average family of four has an income of $113,300 -- and I would consider them to be "Middle Class," by definition.

 

[RamblingMad]

Parents can only teach what they know. You aren't going to break generations worth of bad financial habit by relying on parents to educate.

Basic finance is about a 60 minute subject anyways. Explain how to balance your bills, the impact of compound interest/debt, and work through some examples showing how negatively/positively these forces can impact your life. Could cover that in a single math class.

I agree with this.

What’s odd is that the Ivy League have only recently started teaching personal finance, so I’m not expecting high schools to start anytime soon.

However, recent research is showing that outside of the math side, personal finance is very behavioral, which makes sense if you follow the impact influencers on Instagram have on personal consumption. The narrative has returned back to the keeping up with the Jones post the Great Recession. Back in 2010 the narrative was around not making conspicuous consumption purchases as your neighbors might be struggling.

With social media you can now post your vacation pictures for all your friends to see. This makes vacation spending a conspicuous consumption item just like an expensive handbag or vehicle.

 

[mjkacmom]

Waiting until high school is too late.

It should be taught early and often.

Discounting saving $20 is the wrong idea. When I cut from my budget during my layoff it was a multitude of small things that added up to significant savings.

If you were living in a tent, what else do you think could’ve been cut? I was taught finances by my parents, we teach our children (DH is a CFA, dd23 an accountant, ds21 a finance major). Schools are already cutting what used to be taught (cursive and grammar come to mind). Parents need to teach their kids life skills.

 

[kdonnel]

If you were living in a tent, what else do you think could’ve been cut? I was taught finances by my parents, we teach our children (DH is a CFA, dd23 an accountant, ds21 a finance major). Schools are already cutting what used to be taught (cursive and grammar come to mind). Parents need to teach their kids life skills.

I am suggesting teaching money skills early and often to give them the skills that may help PREVENT them from ending up living in a tent later in life.

If the parents do not have the skills, and the schools do not teach the skills, how does anyone expect anything to change?

 

[RamblingMad]

If you were living in a tent, what else do you think could’ve been cut? I was taught finances by my parents, we teach our children (DH is a CFA, dd23 an accountant, ds21 a finance major). Schools are already cutting what used to be taught (cursive and grammar come to mind). Parents need to teach their kids life skills.

What about parents with bad life skills? They really aren’t equipped to teach.

 

[RamblingMad]

I am suggesting teaching money skills early and often to give them the skills that may help PREVENT them from ending up living in a tent later in life.

If the parents do not have the skills, and the schools do not teach the skills, how does anyone expect anything to change?

If everyone knew what they were doing, you wouldn’t need advisors or credit counseling.

 

[kdonnel]

If everyone knew what they were doing, you wouldn’t need advisors or credit counseling.

Is that a bad thing?

 

[mjkacmom]

I just put on the TV, Today show, segment on budgeting, one of many I’ve watched. There is more information out there than ever. I also googled my state’s finance curriculum, it appears it’s K - 12.

 

[monsterkitty]

I misspoke earlier as we do have some financial literacy built into the curriculum. It is built into the social studies curriculum and career education curriculum that each student takes throughout middle school and into high school. However, many times in the elementary grades, social studies and science classes are planned around "how can I teach this literacy concept in social studies" instead of using the social studies as a history class first, but utilizing what is taught in literacy as well.

It's really hard to teach kids to save when they don't get an allowance because their parents can't afford said allowance. When they see their parents living paycheck to paycheck, they don't see a way to save there, either. Trying to teach kids to save the "funds" they get through PBIS is a start, but so many of them get a PBIS fund and then go buy that pencil or binder that they need instead of saving for the big things down the road like the fun incentives. Most go for the needed items and not the wants. I would gladly give a student a clarinet reed for free, but I am required to sell them for PBIS funds instead.

Also don’t forget to tell them it’s their parents fault for not having better paying jobs with low-cost healthcare.

I'm a teacher. My health insurance is costing me $700/month as is my husband's. Our union voted for this instead of cutting something from kids. No regrets for many of us, but for the new teachers and paras and other support staff, this is a big hit on their incomes.

 

[siren0119]

I just put on the TV, Today show, segment on budgeting, one of many I’ve watched. There is more information out there than ever. I also googled my state’s finance curriculum, it appears it’s K - 12.

I think that's part of the problem though....there's more information out there than ever before (good AND bad info), and it's assumed that individuals will take it upon themselves to find that information and use it appropriately. That's an unfair assumption to make - is the person looking up "how to" on the internet 1) asking the right questions to get the answers they actually need, 2) qualified to discern between good information and bad information, and 3) able to organize all of this information into an action plan and not get overwhelmed? If the answer is no to any one of those (without some formal financial instruction from school or other adults it's likely to be no to all 3) then you have a person who will make lots of financial mistakes.

I actually looked up my own state's personal finance curriculum, and then read the breakdowns for each topic. While the state curriculum IS technically K-12, at the elementary levels the focus appears to be mostly on digital citizenship and understanding that things cost money. Then in high school the topics jump to understanding credit, investments, savings/interest and such...but there was a distinct lack of focus on PRACTICAL finance - basic budgeting, balancing a checkbook, there were topics on planning a large purchase using credit (important of course) but not on planning a monthly/yearly budget. Long story short, even with curricula in place the focus isn't necessarily on practical, functional finance for the average person.

 

[RamblingMad]

I think that's part of the problem though....there's more information out there than ever before (good AND bad info), and it's assumed that individuals will take it upon themselves to find that information and use it appropriately. That's an unfair assumption to make - is the person looking up "how to" on the internet 1) asking the right questions to get the answers they actually need, 2) qualified to discern between good information and bad information, and 3) able to organize all of this information into an action plan and not get overwhelmed? If the answer is no to any one of those (without some formal financial instruction from school or other adults it's likely to be no to all 3) then you have a person who will make lots of financial mistakes.

I actually looked up my own state's personal finance curriculum, and then read the breakdowns for each topic. While the state curriculum IS technically K-12, at the elementary levels the focus appears to be mostly on digital citizenship and understanding that things cost money. Then in high school the topics jump to understanding credit, investments, savings/interest and such...but there was a distinct lack of focus on PRACTICAL finance - basic budgeting, balancing a checkbook, there were topics on planning a large purchase using credit (important of course) but not on planning a monthly/yearly budget. Long story short, even with curricula in place the focus isn't necessarily on practical, functional finance for the average person.

I like the cash flow game. Lots of good management of monthly cash flows. It’s like monopoly on steroids.

 

[RamblingMad]

Is that a bad thing?

Yes. The average person doesn’t have money for advisor fees. I know one guy paying 1% of his investable assets a year for advisor services. That’s crazy.

They also don’t always look out for their clients. I met a few trying to sell high commission annuities.

It also doesn’t make sense that annuities will now be available in 401ks.

 

[DLgal]

Saying the schools are too busy is the same excuse as I can’t afford to save.

If it were a priority, it would happen.

But it is not a priority.

Start early. 15 minute lessons once a week starting in kindergarten. Ramp up to hour long lessons still once a week by middle school.

This is the truth. Schools are HYPER focused on "college readiness" to the exclusion of teaching any valuable life skills. The secret to getting these skills taught at school is: special education/non college bound track instruction. This is what my kids are getting. Half their day in HS is dedicated to functional academic skills, the rest is vocational/life skills training. My kids are learning budgeting, money management, bill paying, how to go on job interviews and fill out job applications, how to understand interest, taxes, etc. They are learning how to grocery shop, how to make doctor's appointments, how to do basic home repairs, laundry, etc. The school has a full blown "life skills lab" setup like an apartment so kids can practice stuff like cooking, cleaning, laundry, basic electrical and plumbing repairs, etc.

If this type of thing was at least offered as an elective in HS, kids would be better off. I feel like my kids will leave HS not ready for college, but more ready for life than the majority of the graduates.

The sad truth is, MOST parents don't teach their kids any life skills. I consider it my job to teach my kids these things, but you could also say "shouldn't parents be teaching their kids how to read and write and do math?" It is easy to say that, but the reality is, we have an education system for a reason.

 

[mjkacmom]

This is the truth. Schools are HYPER focused on "college readiness" to the exclusion of teaching any valuable life skills. The secret to getting these skills taught at school is: special education/non college bound track instruction. This is what my kids are getting. Half their day in HS is dedicated to functional academic skills, the rest is vocational/life skills training. My kids are learning budgeting, money management, bill paying, how to go on job interviews and fill out job applications, how to understand interest, taxes, etc. They are learning how to grocery shop, how to make doctor's appointments, how to do basic home repairs, laundry, etc. The school has a full blown "life skills lab" setup like an apartment so kids can practice stuff like cooking, cleaning, laundry, basic electrical and plumbing repairs, etc.

If this type of thing was at least offered as an elective in HS, kids would be better off. I feel like my kids will leave HS not ready for college, but more ready for life than the majority of the graduates.

The sad truth is, MOST parents don't teach their kids any life skills. I consider it my job to teach my kids these things, but you could also say "shouldn't parents be teaching their kids how to read and write and do math?" It is easy to say that, but the reality is, we have an education system for a reason.

I think different schools need different curriculums based on the population. A city 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $35,000, a town 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $197,000, my town is $85,000. I’m guessing that their educational needs differ. I had to pay for my kids to take a financial literacy class online over the summer because it was mandatory, and if they took it in school, they would’ve been stuck with a study hall because it’s a half year class (computer applications used to be mandatory the second half until they realized kids didn’t need it).

 

[DLgal]

I think different schools need different curriculums based on the population. A city 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $35,000, a town 4 miles from my house has a median household income of $197,000, my town is $85,000. I’m guessing that their educational needs differ. I had to pay for my kids to take a financial literacy class online over the summer because it was mandatory, and if they took it in school, they would’ve been stuck with a study hall because it’s a half year class (computer applications used to be mandatory the second half until they realized kids didn’t need it).

Our district is a VERY good one and we have a pretty high median income here ($95500). The district is very competitive, with many students going to Ivy Leagues and places like Stanford. ALL the basic classes at the HS level are "college prep" classes or AP. There is nothing even appropriate for "average" students. Something like 95% of the HS graduates go on to a 4 year university. Sadly, that means the few that aren't have nothing tailored to them.

 

[mjkacmom]

Our district is a VERY good one and we have a pretty high median income here ($95500). The district is very competitive, with many students going to Ivy Leagues and places like Stanford. ALL the basic classes at the HS level are "college prep" classes or AP. There is nothing even appropriate for "average" students. Something like 95% of the HS graduates go on to a 4 year university. Sadly, that means the few that aren't have nothing tailored to them.

Ours is mostly college prep, but I do recall seeing some classes that we’re not. Our class sizes are around 300, and based on what I see in the graduation hand outs, only a handful aren’t planning on attending college. However, students can attend vocational high schools free of charge (well, I guess paid for by our town). Unfortunately, public schools tend to be always short of funds, so if 95% are going the college prep route, that’s what is offered, especially since it has gotten so competitive.

 

[NotUrsula]

Our district is a VERY good one and we have a pretty high median income here ($95500). The district is very competitive, with many students going to Ivy Leagues and places like Stanford. ALL the basic classes at the HS level are "college prep" classes or AP. There is nothing even appropriate for "average" students. Something like 95% of the HS graduates go on to a 4 year university. Sadly, that means the few that aren't have nothing tailored to them.

If you wait until HS, you've waited too long. Practical financial literacy needs to be taught in middle school, where they are old enough to understand it, but young enough for it not to interfere with building an academic resume for college. In poorer districts, that age group is paramount; in most poorer households, it is the middle school kids who do the most chores around the house, as they are expected to try to get jobs by the time they are 15. Starting with household management is the best place; the lesson should be not about saving so much as it is about stretching, and how to avoid waste.

The district where my kid attends is not well-funded, and is in fact severely strapped. I'll give them credit for creativity on this front, however; they get these lessons taught by volunteers by hosting and promoting a very popular Junior Achievement program. This metro area has a very nice "Biztown" facility owned by Junior Achievement that hosts field trips, and the kids go several times per year on buses that the organization funds. The lesson sinks in because it is hands-on and set up to be a challenge.

 

[NotUrsula]

That's the problem with discussing things such as this thread. Everyone has a different opinion of what middle class is. To me, middle means exactly that, middle, such as a $63,000 median income. From this forum and some other forums I frequent, it seems to me that most people think that 2 spouses making $90-100k each is middle class. That's freakin loaded. I couldn't fathom making that much money as a household.

The reality in most of the US is somewhere in-between. In most couples there is an income disparity, so the real middle in a two-income household is more like about $80-100K total household income, with an approximate 60/40 split between earners. I wouldn't go so far as to class an annual household income of $180k as "loaded", but that's certainly edging into the upper-middle range throughout most of the US.

Something that you have to keep in mind about this board is that membership is heavily weighted toward residence in cities on or near the east coast, where the cost of living is proportionately higher than in much of the rest of the US. That skews perceptions.

 

[mrodgers]

It's really hard to teach kids to save when they don't get an allowance because their parents can't afford said allowance. When they see their parents living paycheck to paycheck, they don't see a way to save there, either. Trying to teach kids to save the "funds" they get through PBIS is a start, but so many of them get a PBIS fund and then go buy that pencil or binder that they need instead of saving for the big things down the road like the fun incentives. Most go for the needed items and not the wants. I would gladly give a student a clarinet reed for free, but I am required to sell them for PBIS funds instead.

Financing also isn't all about saving. I was taught about saving money as a kid. Problem is, mother was a control freak and took every penny us kids had to save it. We weren't allowed any of it. Allowance, birthday money, Christmas money, Easter money, it was all taken and had to be saved, everything. Even when my brother and I got jobs at 16, had to hand the paycheck over for mom to put it in the bank and save. Had to ask to have my own money to put gas in my car to use (wasn't mine until it was given to me as a graduation present.) Wasn't allowed to spend it on Friday nights hanging where all the other kids hung out. Wasn't allowed to do anything but save my money.

Until I graduated. I paid for my college, which was community college and an easy bill to pay at $3.35/hour part time. After college, I had full control of it, a real job no longer making minimum wage, and the only thing I was taught all my childhood was I'm not allowed to have my money. Well, now I did have my money, and spend it I did. No one was in control of my finances any more. That was very detrimental to my financial well being for a long time.

 

[RamblingMad]

Financing also isn't all about saving. I was taught about saving money as a kid. Problem is, mother was a control freak and took every penny us kids had to save it. We weren't allowed any of it. Allowance, birthday money, Christmas money, Easter money, it was all taken and had to be saved, everything. Even when my brother and I got jobs at 16, had to hand the paycheck over for mom to put it in the bank and save. Had to ask to have my own money to put gas in my car to use (wasn't mine until it was given to me as a graduation present.) Wasn't allowed to spend it on Friday nights hanging where all the other kids hung out. Wasn't allowed to do anything but save my money.

Until I graduated. I paid for my college, which was community college and an easy bill to pay at $3.35/hour part time. After college, I had full control of it, a real job no longer making minimum wage, and the only thing I was taught all my childhood was I'm not allowed to have my money. Well, now I did have my money, and spend it I did. No one was in control of my finances any more. That was very detrimental to my financial well being for a long time.

Asset allocation is hard. I’m not surprised your mom had a hard time teaching it.