Age vs Class in Sports

[Boardwalk Jedi]

The problem that US Soccer faces is that the HS soccer system (and, in some ways, college soccer) is a crappy way to build a national program.

While my older son played HS soccer and my younger son is also planning on playing, the fact is that HS soccer, with a few exceptions, is crappy soccer. Add that in with the fact that HS soccer teams are only together for 3 months out of the year and it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to build any continuity with the team and their playing style.

DA, on the other hand, allows a high level player to train with the same roster for 11 months a year and play against competition that is similar in ability as well as playing style. That's why pretty much all of the National Team players generally come from that system (assuming, like Pulisic, Weah, etc., they're not already in Europe by the time they're 16).

I'm not saying that DA (or ODP, etc.) is the right move for most players, but from a national perspective, it's a good thing to identify those players that should be playing nationally and keep them together in the hopes that future years don't include US teams not playing in the Olympics or World Cup.

This is where we'll disagree. I don't think year round sports are good for high school kids period and the idea of playing with the same roster for 11 months is a professional thing, not for developing players. You can lose a lot of kids with that theory by writing them off too early. Plus look how well identifying young potential athletes and making nationally ranked gymnasts trained together worked out for gymnastics. These players are kids and need to develop as kids would, not as professional athletes would. I think the US can find a way to have winning national teams without becoming the old Soviet Union.

 

[Klayfish]

I have no experience with lacrosse, so I don't know if this applies, but as far as soccer goes, nearly every tournament we do to have various brackets of differing skill levels, so to try to avoid the blowouts you're talking about. Teams can apply to a specific bracket and the tournament officials often will go through a team's history to make sure that a team is not trying to 'sandbag' and register to a lower bracket just to win the tourney. One tournament we went to said they take pride in creating brackets where no team wins or loses by more than 3 goals.

I'm not going to pretend I know the back story of how lacrosse tournaments are run/organized here. I don't get involved, I simply show up at practice/games/tournaments when/where we're told and root them on. So I only know what I observe after having as much experience as I do now. I think the tournament organizers do their best to bracket similar skill set teams together. I also think teams know which tournaments they "should" go to and which they shouldn't. DD11 had a tournament last weekend, it's one they go to every year. There are a few teams they played during the rec league season that they absolutely destroyed, like 20-0. Those teams weren't at the tournament. I'm not sure if they go to other ones or simply don't participate in the tournaments. DD11 team went 1-3, but none of the games were completely embarrassing blow outs. I think that's a bit different in soccer vs. lacrosse too. In soccer, I'd guess 4-0 is a total domination blow out. In lacrosse, 11-6 is a lopsided win, but not necessarily a total domination...that's where the 15-0 games happen. We didn't experience those and typically don't in tournaments...but they do happen from time to time. Once in a while you'll get a team that's far superior or just puts it all together for one game. As I said before, I'm OK with that, it's life. The only time I'm not OK with it is if a team is in a tournament they clearly don't belong in and gets pummeled game after game. That happened to DS11 last summer. His club team was in tournaments that were clearly far above their competition level. They lost pretty much every game 15-1. That was no fun for anyone, and we made sure the club team organizers were aware of our feelings.

 

[sam_gordon]

The problem that US Soccer faces is that the HS soccer system (and, in some ways, college soccer) is a crappy way to build a national program.

While my older son played HS soccer and my younger son is also planning on playing, the fact is that HS soccer, with a few exceptions, is crappy soccer. Add that in with the fact that HS soccer teams are only together for 3 months out of the year and it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to build any continuity with the team and their playing style.

DA, on the other hand, allows a high level player to train with the same roster for 11 months a year and play against competition that is similar in ability as well as playing style. That's why pretty much all of the National Team players generally come from that system (assuming, like Pulisic, Weah, etc., they're not already in Europe by the time they're 16).

I'm not saying that DA (or ODP, etc.) is the right move for most players, but from a national perspective, it's a good thing to identify those players that should be playing nationally and keep them together in the hopes that future years don't include US teams not playing in the Olympics or World Cup.

Has DA been around long enough to generate the current NT players? What I don't understand (and I'm sure the answer is $$) is why form the DA? Why not expand ODP? As far as I know, every state has an ODP. Not every state has a DA and not every DA has all the age groups.

I've often thought more emphasis should be put into ODP, designate ODP training/playing weekends/weeks, and let it be known to every club and school that they need to release the ODP players at that time (similar to how professional clubs treat International players who play on their NT). Then you have a true path to NT... State ODP to Regional ODP to National (east & west). In my "perfect world", ODP would be at no cost to the players. Nothing for tryouts, uniforms, coaches, etc. That cost should be shouldered by USYS.

 

[soccerdad72]

Has DA been around long enough to generate the current NT players? What I don't understand (and I'm sure the answer is $$) is why form the DA? Why not expand ODP? As far as I know, every state has an ODP. Not every state has a DA and not every DA has all the age groups.

The DA as it currently exists is fairly new, but the original concept behind it (e.g. MLS teams funding academy teams) has been around for a fairly long time. Unfortunately, in an attempt to expand the DA, I think clubs have been added who are diluting the talent and making it more of a pay-for-play than it was intended to be.

ODP is a good concept, but the biggest flaw in it (IMO) is that it's dependent on states putting the proper amount of emphasis into it. My older son did ODP, and while it was a good way to get some extra training in, Ohio North really didn't give it much attention. That became evident when he went to the regional tournament and saw some of the other states (like Michigan and Illinois) that seemed to him like they had been playing together for years. The other problem is the same as the DA - while it's easy to say that every state has an ODP program, it still has geographical problems in that training takes place in a given location and if you don't live near that location, you either are stuck driving 2-4 hours each training date or not participate. Instead of doing ODP, my son had a friend who played for Columbus Crew Juniors and his parents drove him 4 hours round trip (during the week) for practices.

 

[sam_gordon]

The DA as it currently exists is fairly new, but the original concept behind it (e.g. MLS teams funding academy teams) has been around for a fairly long time. Unfortunately, in an attempt to expand the DA, I think clubs have been added who are diluting the talent and making it more of a pay-for-play than it was intended to be.

ODP is a good concept, but the biggest flaw in it (IMO) is that it's dependent on states putting the proper amount of emphasis into it. My older son did ODP, and while it was a good way to get some extra training in, Ohio North really didn't give it much attention. That became evident when he went to the regional tournament and saw some of the other states (like Michigan and Illinois) that seemed to him like they had been playing together for years. The other problem is the same as the DA - while it's easy to say that every state has an ODP program, it still has geographical problems in that training takes place in a given location and if you don't live near that location, you either are stuck driving 2-4 hours each training date or not participate. Instead of doing ODP, my son had a friend who played for Columbus Crew Juniors and his parents drove him 4 hours round trip (during the week) for practices.

One thing I like (and don't like) is our ODP training sessions get moved around the state. They'll usually have 1-2 in Louisville, another couple in Northern Ky, at least one in Versailles (just west of Lexington), and one in Bowling Green. So our shortest drive is ~30-40 minutes and our longest 2:15.

Those four areas probably account for 95% of the ODP talent in the state. So everyone gets at least one short drive and one long drive.

One of DS' former teammates (and older brother and mother) moved to Columbus JUST to be on Crew Juniors. That happened 2-3 years ago and now one of the brothers dropped out of soccer (and I think it was the one they actually moved for). The dad stayed in Kentucky (I should specify the mom and dad are married).

 

[BLAZEY]

Never heard of travel sports teams or clubs outside of school sports using graduation year for anything. All the sports outside of school require a Birth Certificate to verify age. I have never been asked what school she attends or what grade she is in ro what year she is projected to graduate. It all goes by date of birth. I have seen it go the other way in school sports. A 10th grader forced to move to the senior team once they turned 16 before the Dec 31 cutoff, which is the same for starting school. You can hold your child back in school, but for sports they will still be required to play "up" with kids in their same birth year for sports.

 

[Park Pirate]

Never heard of travel sports teams or clubs outside of school sports using graduation year for anything. All the sports outside of school require a Birth Certificate to verify age. I have never been asked what school she attends or what grade she is in ro what year she is projected to graduate. It all goes by date of birth. I have seen it go the other way in school sports. A 10th grader forced to move to the senior team once they turned 16 before the Dec 31 cutoff, which is the same for starting school. You can hold your child back in school, but for sports they will still be required to play "up" with kids in their same birth year for sports.

Hopefully this is not breaking any link rules but here is an example of division grouping from a prominent lacrosse tournament organizer (look under 2019 Boys Age Groups):

https://www.hoganlax.com/exposure

 

[BLAZEY]

Hopefully this is not breaking any link rules but here is an example of division grouping from a prominent lacrosse tournament organizer (look under 2019 Boys Age Groups):

https://www.hoganlax.com/exposure

Yes I see . That just looks weird. So I can hold my kid back to start late plus if they fail a year in school and need to repeat they can be 2+ years older than most of the other kids in their grade, but they still get to play sports against kids in their "same grade"? School here is done by calendar year. For example if you child was born in (Jan 1- Dec 31) 2013 they started Kindergarten in September 2018. This is how the kids are divided based on date of birth to create a a division. "O" cat swimmers swim full time all year round. "s" swimmers swim only full time between May 1 -Sept 30.https://www.bcsummerswimming.com/docs/AgeLocator-Swimming&Synchro-2018.pdf

 

[mousefan1972]

Yes I see . That just looks weird. So I can hold my kid back to start late plus if they fail a year in school and need to repeat they can be 2+ years older than most of the other kids in their grade, but they still get to play sports against kids in their "same grade"?

Yup. Here in Massachusetts, the “cut off” to start school is August 31st. Most schools start around Labor Day. My son’s birthday is in August, so the year he turned five, he started kindergarten a few weeks after his birthday. He then had classmates with birthdays in September who turned six a couple weeks after school started. But they are in the grade they are “supposed to” be in. My kid is just young. I have no issue with that. My issue is with the parents who then decided to hold their kid back so they are nearly 2 full years older than him. He’s in 8th grade, and several of his classmates who should be freshman but were held back, have already turned 15. There’s even a new term for it, “reclassifying”. There are 3 “reclasses” on his lacrosse team. Kids who should be a grade ahead of where they are. Sorry, but in a contact sport like lacrosse, there’s a huge difference between a kid who is only a few months past his 13th birthday, and a kid who is 15. Huge difference.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yup. Here in Massachusetts, the “cut off” to start school is August 31st. Most schools start around Labor Day. My son’s birthday is in August, so the year he turned five, he started kindergarten a few weeks after his birthday. He then had classmates with birthdays in September who turned six a couple weeks after school started. But they are in the grade they are “supposed to” be in. My kid is just young. I have no issue with that. My issue is with the parents who then decided to hold their kid back so they are nearly 2 full years older than him. He’s in 8th grade, and several of his classmates who should be freshman but were held back, have already turned 15. There’s even a new term for it, “reclassifying”. There are 3 “reclasses” on his lacrosse team. Kids who should be a grade ahead of where they are. Sorry, but in a contact sport like lacrosse, there’s a huge difference between a kid who is only a few months past his 13th birthday, and a kid who is 15. Huge difference.

Also in MA. I know of communities that had to institute rules about holding kids back for a variety of reasons (not just sports). Personally, I never understood it, but I guess to some it was important. Where I live that is really not the case, i.e. most kids are where they are supposed to be.

I remember meeting a teammate's dad when my son was playing soccer in kindergarten. He was really concerned that his son had an August bday and was going to be smaller, younger, what have you, compared to most of the other kids in the grade and sport. Well the irony was that this kid actually got to be pretty HUGE early on and he sort of dwarfed a lot of the other kids who might've been a little older than him. And skill-wise, he was a very good player. Point being, I'm not sure it really turned out to be much of an issue in his case. (My DS had a fall bday but was always smaller than most of his peers and teammates growing up, and it was actually something he had to work to overcome in some ways.)

Oh, and you mentioned contact sports. Even in non-contact sports, size differences can be important. For example, in baseball, some kids who are 12 years old are big and tall, and can whack the ball pretty hard. If you put a younger and smaller player in the infield, say, especially if they're "playing up" and perhaps not as experienced, they can get hurt if they get hit if they can't make the play or even protect themselves. Same with pitchers on the mound and players using metal bats - getting hit with a line drive can do some damage. Ideally players are around the same age, stage and ability.

To answer the question (wait, what was it again ) oh yes, my son did all types of baseball teams - Rec, Travel, Legion, AAU, now college and coaching. As I mentioned, where I live, locally, things are pretty well matched and I don't recall any problems that way. For AAU, birth certificates had to be submitted or no play. It was such a big issue that paperwork had to be collected before the team even went to tournaments. You could also play up a bit (maybe one level, if capable - not a good idea on most teams that my son was on, i.e. it never really happened) but you absolutely could not play down. Camaraderie is a beautiful thing when it happens. Teams that are most successful are ones that meld the best and have the least amount of resentments.

I notice even in college there is a lot of size variation. But I look at these players and know that they've all had pretty intense experiences growing up in order to build the skills they have and I don't think that's a bad thing. There's also passion there in order to do what they do in college, and a lot of determination and hard work (perhaps especially for those whose experiences don't involve scholarship money, i.e. they're doing it for the love of the game), and those are both admirable and desirable qualities that they'll take with them into the work force and beyond. I am actually pretty blown away with how much DS is getting out of his experience. I would never disparage it.

I don't get the hate for "travel teams" (however you define them) other than that they disrupted the status quo and caused some resentment when it appeared to many that sports had become divided and some of the teams drew players away from other teams for a variety of reasons. I will say that when my son was interviewing with his college coach, the person the college coach called to talk to about my son was his AAU coach (who was, himself, a college coach), not his HS coach. Times have changed, like it or not, and I can't blame people for wanting to get the best experiences they can, if that's what the player wants and/or needs to do. (Many don't, and that's fine.)

Where I live, during the time my son was playing, Rec leagues and field conditions were abysmal, and if one wanted to grow in the sport, there was little choice but to go private. Every community is different and every player unique for what they want to get out of it. Making blanket statements just doesn't make sense because of that. I will agree that some may not either be able to afford to pay for something like AAU or have the family support to do so, but I personally have seen the people running the organizations my son belonged offer reduced or no fees as well as offer team support to help the player get to games or share rooms with other familes on the road if their families couldn't go, etc., but I can't speak for all teams, that was just my personal experience. And we're not talking thousands of dollars here, either, our fees were always very reasonable for what we got in return. We actually have them to thank for helping my DS reach his potential in the sport, because otherwise, it wouldn't have happened where we live.

 

[sam_gordon]

Hopefully this is not breaking any link rules but here is an example of division grouping from a prominent lacrosse tournament organizer (look under 2019 Boys Age Groups):

https://www.hoganlax.com/exposure

Is that how lax is sorted? I've had kids in travel softball, basketball, and soccer, and all of it was decided by birthdate. The only issue is where they made the cutoff (Sept 1 would "match" the school year, Jan 1 would "match" the birth year).

 

[Klayfish]

Yes I see . That just looks weird. So I can hold my kid back to start late plus if they fail a year in school and need to repeat they can be 2+ years older than most of the other kids in their grade, but they still get to play sports against kids in their "same grade"? School here is done by calendar year. For example if you child was born in (Jan 1- Dec 31) 2013 they started Kindergarten in September 2018. This is how the kids are divided based on date of birth to create a a division. "O" cat swimmers swim full time all year round. "s" swimmers swim only full time between May 1 -Sept 30.https://www.bcsummerswimming.com/docs/AgeLocator-Swimming&Synchro-2018.pdf

Sure, I suppose if you really wanted to hold your kid back to start late just so they could have an age advantage in lacrosse, you could...but not sure how many parents would go to those lengths. I also suspect that if there were a kid who was 2+ years older than the rest of his/her grad class, which would be a very odd exception to the norm, they might have the child play with the graduating class of their age peers.

Is that how lax is sorted? I've had kids in travel softball, basketball, and soccer, and all of it was decided by birthdate. The only issue is where they made the cutoff (Sept 1 would "match" the school year, Jan 1 would "match" the birth year).

It's done different ways. Most rec leagues, at least in my area, are by age (though that of course typically correlates with grad year anyway). The age groups are K/1, U9, U11, U13, U15 (though by this time most kids don't play there, they play high school), JV, Varsity. So if you're U11, you could be 9, 10 or even just turning 11...such has having your 11th b-day before the season ends. Many club/travel teams do it strictly by graduating class year, so they'll have a team for class of 2022, one for 2023, etc...if they don't have enough kids they may combine them. DS11 has tryouts this Saturday for the spring "select" team, which is going to be both 6th and 7th grade.

As I said initially, I don't have any problem at all with having it grouped that way, even if you get a 18+ month age difference at times. I just don't understand why it's an issue. It works well. The younger kids often learn from the older ones and then the following year the kids who were the young ones are now the older ones and get to be the "leaders".

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

Also in MA. I know of communities that had to institute rules about holding kids back for a variety of reasons (not just sports). Personally, I never understood it, but I guess to some it was important. Where I live that is really not the case, i.e. most kids are where they are supposed to be.

I remember meeting a teammate's dad when my son was playing soccer in kindergarten. He was really concerned that his son had an August bday and was going to be smaller, younger, what have you, compared to most of the other kids in the grade and sport. Well the irony was that this kid actually got to be pretty HUGE early on and he sort of dwarfed a lot of the other kids who might've been a little older than him. And skill-wise, he was a very good player. Point being, I'm not sure it really turned out to be much of an issue in his case. (My DS had a fall bday but was always smaller than most of his peers and teammates growing up, and it was actually something he had to work to overcome in some ways.)

Oh, and you mentioned contact sports. Even in non-contact sports, size differences can be important. For example, in baseball, some kids who are 12 years old are big and tall, and can whack the ball pretty hard. If you put a younger and smaller player in the infield, say, especially if they're "playing up" and perhaps not as experienced, they can get hurt if they get hit if they can't make the play or even protect themselves. Same with pitchers on the mound and players using metal bats - getting hit with a line drive can do some damage. Ideally players are around the same age, stage and ability.

To answer the question (wait, what was it again ) oh yes, my son did all types of baseball teams - Rec, Travel, Legion, AAU, now college and coaching. As I mentioned, where I live, locally, things are pretty well matched and I don't recall any problems that way. For AAU, birth certificates had to be submitted or no play. It was such a big issue that paperwork had to be collected before the team even went to tournaments. You could also play up a bit (maybe one level, if capable - not a good idea on most teams that my son was on, i.e. it never really happened) but you absolutely could not play down. Camaraderie is a beautiful thing when it happens. Teams that are most successful are ones that meld the best and have the least amount of resentments.

I notice even in college there is a lot of size variation. But I look at these players and know that they've all had pretty intense experiences growing up in order to build the skills they have and I don't think that's a bad thing. There's also passion there in order to do what they do in college, and a lot of determination and hard work (perhaps especially for those whose experiences don't involve scholarship money, i.e. they're doing it for the love of the game), and those are both admirable and desirable qualities that they'll take with them into the work force and beyond. I am actually pretty blown away with how much DS is getting out of his experience. I would never disparage it.

I don't get the hate for "travel teams" (however you define them) other than that they disrupted the status quo and caused some resentment when it appeared to many that sports had become divided and some of the teams drew players away from other teams for a variety of reasons. I will say that when my son was interviewing with his college coach, the person the college coach called to talk to about my son was his AAU coach (who was, himself, a college coach), not his HS coach. Times have changed, like it or not, and I can't blame people for wanting to get the best experiences they can, if that's what the player wants and/or needs to do. (Many don't, and that's fine.)

Where I live, during the time my son was playing, Rec leagues and field conditions were abysmal, and if one wanted to grow in the sport, there was little choice but to go private. Every community is different and every player unique for what they want to get out of it. Making blanket statements just doesn't make sense because of that. I will agree that some may not either be able to afford to pay for something like AAU or have the family support to do so, but I personally have seen the people running the organizations my son belonged offer reduced or no fees as well as offer team support to help the player get to games or share rooms with other familes on the road if their families couldn't go, etc., but I can't speak for all teams, that was just my personal experience. And we're not talking thousands of dollars here, either, our fees were always very reasonable for what we got in return. We actually have them to thank for helping my DS reach his potential in the sport, because otherwise, it wouldn't have happened where we live.

We held our fall born girls back not for sports, but because we believe you should be five to start kindergarten. I come from a family of teachers that have never seen it hurt to hold a kid out, but have seen plenty of damage to kids that went early. Of course some kids do just fine, but I don't appreciate anyone who would tell my kids they were "supposed" to be a year ahead. That's kind of lame and uneducated.

As for travel teams, I wouldn't call myself a hater as much as I would call myself a skeptic. In the end, kids want to play with their friends. So even though over the years, I had one doing AAU Basketball, one in premier soccer, one doing private volleyball and one now swimming for the Y team - we still had them play on a local rec or travel team. Our logic was that we might as well support a good feeder system into the high school if we wanted our kids to successfully play in high school. Where I get skeptical is how many parents honestly think their kids getting scholarships so they invest money they don't have and burn their kid out in the process. I think a lot of private coaches cater toward that sort of parent to make money and their message is very misleading. I'm very well aware of college coaches talking to AAU coaches instead of high school coaches and honestly, I think they too only feed the monster that is the "youth sports industrial complex" and in the end, they miss out on a lot of talent and potential.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

We held our fall born girls back not for sports, but because we believe you should be five to start kindergarten. I come from a family of teachers that have never seen it hurt to hold a kid out, but have seen plenty of damage to kids that went early. Of course some kids do just fine, but I don't appreciate anyone who would tell my kids they were "supposed" to be a year ahead. That's kind of lame and uneducated.

Yes. As the poster I quoted said, for us, many (?most) communities have an August 31 cutoff. Where I live you really have to go when your birthdate dictates. It was different when I was growing up and there was a December 31 cutoff where I lived. Both my DH and I were early September babies and went to K at 4, so I know what teachers mean, but I think some people are rabid about it in order for their kid to get ahead, which is why one of the communities near me actually had to institute firm rules about it. I guess there are lots of ways to think about it.

As for travel teams, I wouldn't call myself a hater as much as I would call myself a skeptic. In the end, kids want to play with their friends. So even though over the years, I had one doing AAU Basketball, one in premier soccer, one doing private volleyball and one now swimming for the Y team - we still had them play on a local rec or travel team. Our logic was that we might as well support a good feeder system into the high school if we wanted our kids to successfully play in high school. Where I get skeptical is how many parents honestly think their kids getting scholarships so they invest money they don't have and burn their kid out in the process. I think a lot of private coaches cater toward that sort of parent to make money and their message is very misleading. I'm very well aware of college coaches talking to AAU coaches instead of high school coaches and honestly, I think they too only feed the monster that is the "youth sports industrial complex" and in the end, they miss out on a lot of talent and potential.

I hear what you're saying, and there's nothing wrong with skepticism. And I wasn't singling your comments out, but some critics do paint with a broad brush, because not all are like that. As I mentioned, my community just sucked in the sport my son loved most and wanted to play. (They are better in some other sports, and thankfully making improvements in his, as well, finally - no doubt because of everyone having to go elsewhere.) Certainly nothing like what I've seen people talk about here and witnessed myself when communities embrace a sport. So others who felt the same started their own group out of necessity, which worked out really well for a lot of players in our community (as many of them developed enough to later make college teams and elected to play in college). They weren't swindlers, they were good people trying to make the best of a bad situation. And most playing weren't playing for scholarship money necessarily, they were happy just to keep playing; the money they paid wasn't a means to an end as much as it was a price to be paid for good experiences in the moment. As to the bolded, most of ours also played locally as well as AAU throughout the school years, too. (And sometimes, local leaders weren't very nice to them, if not downright hostile. It's not coincidental that things are improving locally since some of those people left.)

It's not black and white that college coaches only speak to AAU coaches or don't talk to HS coaches, I was just saying that that's how it went down in our case (and many others I've seen). Colleges draw from a lot of sources and I'm absolutely sure there are local and HS coaches involved in the process, too (as my cousin is a HS coach and we've discussed this a lot - his kids play AAU, too). IME AAU teams recognized that in order to have their kids competitive and "get what they're paying for", they needed to bring in coaches who really knew the process from A to Z, so in younger years there were often former HS and college players as coaches, and as players got older (16U, 18U), they brought in actual college coaches, because there is a world of difference between playing in HS and playing in college, and players need to be prepared for that if they want to move on. (No room for being butt hurt over imagined slights - that doesn't fly in college, nor does parental involvement, for example.) DS is coaching both locally and for AAU and brings a wide variety of experiences to it. It's only natural given how things have evolved that going forward, the caliber of coaching will evolve, too, and that's probably what we're seeing when college coaches reach out to AAU coaches because they know that in the upper level teams they will be speaking with someone they know can evaluate players on attributes that are important to them, which, again, may be different than what HS players are being evaluated on. (And it's totally an aside, but I've seen kids that are absolute superstars in HS play in their first college scrimmage and the wind is taken out of their sails completely. This fall one of these freshman players came back to the dugout after a really tough outing and said to my son, "Wow, I sucked out there!". DS supported him but it does shake a player so it helps when they're truly prepared.)

 

[sa cheermom]

We held our fall born girls back not for sports, but because we believe you should be five to start kindergarten. I come from a family of teachers that have never seen it hurt to hold a kid out, but have seen plenty of damage to kids that went early. Of course some kids do just fine, but I don't appreciate anyone who would tell my kids they were "supposed" to be a year ahead. That's kind of lame and uneducated.

As for travel teams, I wouldn't call myself a hater as much as I would call myself a skeptic. In the end, kids want to play with their friends. So even though over the years, I had one doing AAU Basketball, one in premier soccer, one doing private volleyball and one now swimming for the Y team - we still had them play on a local rec or travel team. Our logic was that we might as well support a good feeder system into the high school if we wanted our kids to successfully play in high school. Where I get skeptical is how many parents honestly think their kids getting scholarships so they invest money they don't have and burn their kid out in the process. I think a lot of private coaches cater toward that sort of parent to make money and their message is very misleading. I'm very well aware of college coaches talking to AAU coaches instead of high school coaches and honestly, I think they too only feed the monster that is the "youth sports industrial complex" and in the end, they miss out on a lot of talent and potential.

As evidenced by my screen name, we are pretty heavy into the cheer world.

There has always been a birth date rule, however, it was left up to the gyms to check birth dates and put teams together within the rules. Well, there are always "those" people where the win is more important that teaching the sportsmanship and you would get some teams with tiny older kids as flyers on the youth teams. So, now the USASF requires you to log in each year and upload the birth certificate. Is it perfect? No, because if you really want to cheat, you can still upload a bogus BC for a cheerleader. But it has addressed several problems with putting older athletes onto the younger teams. Now for addressing the issue of sandbagging, but that would be a whole 'nother thread (and often is on a cheer related board.)

Now back to why I quoted your post. My one daughter's team travels, travels quite a bit. Last year they were asked if they would rather just go to local competitions and easily drive-able comps to save some money. It was a resounding, unanimous NO. When you play the same kids, same teams, same leagues over and over again, it gets repetitive. To put in back in LAX terms when our son played club LAX, you know how the local coaches are going to coach. You know the plays. You can prepare too well. Our athletes love seeing and having the opportunity to compete against some of the top teams in the country, making new friends, and broadening their skills and knowledge of their sport by seeing how other parts of the country approach it.

So, it is not all about money making on the part of the gym, scholarship opportunities, etc, although that is a big part of it. My kids like the travel teams because they are exciting, they learn more, and are challenged more in their sport. Besides, it forces us to Disney at least once a year.

 

[ponyboy]

Never heard of travel sports teams or clubs outside of school sports using graduation year for anything. All the sports outside of school require a Birth Certificate to verify age. I have never been asked what school she attends or what grade she is in ro what year she is projected to graduate. It all goes by date of birth. I have seen it go the other way in school sports. A 10th grader forced to move to the senior team once they turned 16 before the Dec 31 cutoff, which is the same for starting school. You can hold your child back in school, but for sports they will still be required to play "up" with kids in their same birth year for sports.

At least here in Texas all baseball goes by age up until 14/15U when they start going by an age/grade combo. At that point they're getting into high school and the kids will be playing with older/younger kids so it doesn't make that much of a difference anymore. This time next week my 14 year old son will be playing in games with 18 year olds.

Once they're getting to that age it's not so much about the age as it is the talent level.

 

[NotUrsula]

Part of the issue is the nature of the sport. In that sport, is there an advantage to being larger/heavier, or an advantage to being smaller/lighter? That will make a huge difference in the best way to even out team structure for fairer competition.

DD11 is a Synchronized figure skater on a nationally competitive team. There are very few markets in the US where it is even possible to hold local competitions in this sport, because there are just not that many figure skaters who participate in it. (Nationally there are 600 registered teams that compete under United States Figure Skating. The average program fields between 3 and 9 teams, which are determined by both age and skill level. Our club is fielding 7 teams this year. There are two other programs in our metro area of a little under 3 million people, both of which field 3 teams each and generally compete only on the regional level.

USFSA skating has a multi-pronged system for deciding competition levels. All competitive skaters in every discipline must pass skill tests in order to compete at any level above the most basic. One reason is to try to keep competitions balanced, but the other is safety -- on ice, you really do not want kids trying to do moves that they have not properly trained for, because the serious injury potential is very high. In Synchro, teams are defined by a combination of age (all skaters compete for the season as the age they were on the preceding July 1) and test level passed. For the more experienced skaters the age groupings are fairly tight, but for those who are new to the sport and test lower, there are also "Open" teams that allow a broader age range. There are 18 competition level options from ages under-8 to adults over age 30: https://www.usfsa.org/programs?id=59365.

In most disciplines in figure skating, being larger is a disadvantage, though in the more advanced levels of Synchro, just as in Pairs, it actually helps if the team has something of a mix of smaller and larger skaters. The skill-level restrictions mean that even though there is no lower age limit for a team, truly young kids will very seldom make it on to higher-level teams, because the skill tests have to be taken consecutively, and each test level takes anywhere from 3 months to 2 years to master well enough to pass. (Also, I should say that although this is a mostly-female discipline of the sport, teams are co-ed under the rules, so there are no separate competitions for men and women.)