A challenge to all that don't like Star Wars or Marvel in the parks

[sheetz]

\ Many of which might be perceived as even aimed at them. I mean trains? How many girls got a train set on Christmas morning, right? Not that girls don't enjoy riding it, but it definitely connects very strongly with boys.

Well my viewpoint is that the train is a form of transportation, like the monorail or Main Street vehicles. Is taking the bus or the subway a "boy" attraction? Being a train conductor might be considered a "boy" attraction, but riding in a train? Not a boy attraction, IMO.

In fact, one might argue that girls like being driven more than driving themselves, so in that case the railroad might be considered a "girl" attraction.

 

[HydroGuy]

In large part, I'd agree. But the original premise was that there are so many girl-oriented things, that some more boy-oriented things would be welcome. I'm just merely pointing out that there are a LOT of things that boys should enjoy. Many of which might be perceived as even aimed at them. I mean trains? How many girls got a train set on Christmas morning, right? Not that girls don't enjoy riding it, but it definitely connects very strongly with boys.

Again, I didn't post all that to argue the gender relations, just to gain some perspective. All of it is certainly debateable.

I understand where you are coming from and think your insight hits close to the mark.

I have four boys (now college and high school age) and two sisters (now old fogies like me ) and - on average - boys naturally gravitate towards adventure and girls naturally gravitate towards relationships and romance.

Trains are associated with new frontiers and technological advance (circa 19th century) and going to new places and making loud noises. It is something that on average has greater appeal for boys than girls.

I think your list of gender appeal rides is as revealing as the one for movies.

I remember going to DL right after my third birthday and riding Dumbo with my uncle who was 10. DL always appealed to me and I never had a feeling for a moment it was somehow more geared towards girls. There were trains and bobsleds in mountains and monorails and submarines and cruises through jungles. I loved and still love stories and imagination and Fantasyland rides like StorybookLand and Monstro the whale I remember vividly from childhood. Alice in Wonderland (is that ride vehicle going to fall off the leaf???), Rocket Jets high above Tomorrowland. Etc., etc., etc.

In any case Star Wars will play into this just fine. Something bothers me about superheroes in the parks though. I don't know why. It just does not fit for me.

 

[Mom of a princess]

Thank you so much for your post.
I was initially very upset about Marvel characters and merchandise being in the parks.
It just did not feel very Disneyish.
Your post made view this in an entirely different light and realize this is a good move.

Thanks again

 

[starjazz]

I understand where you are coming from and think your insight hits close to the mark.

I have four boys (now college and high school age) and two sisters (now old fogies like me ) and - on average - boys naturally gravitate towards adventure and girls naturally gravitate towards relationships and romance.

Trains are associated with new frontiers and technological advance (circa 19th century) and going to new places and making loud noises. It is something that on average has greater appeal for boys than girls.

I think your list of gender appeal rides is as revealing as the one for movies.

I remember going to DL right after my third birthday and riding Dumbo with my uncle who was 10. DL always appealed to me and I never had a feeling for a moment it was somehow more geared towards girls. There were trains and bobsleds in mountains and monorails and submarines and cruises through jungles. I loved and still love stories and imagination and Fantasyland rides like StorybookLand and Monstro the whale I remember vividly from childhood. Alice in Wonderland (is that ride vehicle going to fall off the leaf???), Rocket Jets high above Tomorrowland. Etc., etc., etc.

In any case Star Wars will play into this just fine. Something bothers me about superheroes in the parks though. I don't know why. It just does not fit for me.

Thanks! I'm with you - always enjoyed it as a kid - always felt there were lots of things I connected with as a boy. I think its why Disney is so perfect - its appealing to everyone of all ages and genders and colors and all of that!!

 

[momof4fans]

This is a very interesting conversation. It made me wonder though, how does Captain EO fit into DLR? I've never seen it, so I really don't know. If somebody could explain...

 

[sherilaine]

This is a very interesting conversation. It made me wonder though, how does Captain EO fit into DLR? I've never seen it, so I really don't know. If somebody could explain...

Just when you are having a great time, your kids drag you in to see it, then they want to go back in, it's Disney's way of making sure every family suffers just a little bit, even when they are at the happiest place on earth...

 

[momof4fans]

Just when you are having a great time, your kids drag you in to see it, then they want to go back in, it's Disney's way of making sure every family suffers just a little bit, even when they are at the happiest place on earth...

HaHaHaHa! That's funny!

 

[HydroGuy]

Just when you are having a great time, your kids drag you in to see it, then they want to go back in, it's Disney's way of making sure every family suffers just a little bit, even when they are at the happiest place on earth...

Or in the case of my family with kids in college and highs school, it is me who drags my kids to see it as it is harmless and shows MJ in his prime.

Funny, I did not care for Eo at all when it came out and I was in my 20's. Now that they brought it back in recent years I think it is a hoot. And a good way to relax for awhile in an air conditioned theater on a hot day.

 

[sherilaine]

Or in the case of my family with kids in college and highs school, it is me who drags my kids to see it as it is harmless and shows MJ in his prime.

Funny, I did not care for Eo at all when it came out and I was in my 20's. Now that they brought it back in recent years I think it is a hoot. And a good way to relax for awhile in an air conditioned theater on a hot day.

It is a hoot - my kids do not get the 80s aspect of it - but for us older folk it does take you right back!!

And yes, the A/C sure is nice!!

 

[BSOGfam]

I've loved reading everyone's thoughts on this. My childhood entertainment consisted of Disney classics and Star Wars. The two have always been intertwined for me. In that respect, I would love to see what Disney imagineering can do for Star Wars.
I feel the beauty of Disney is that it's gender neutral. I grew up loving Jungle book, Peter Pan and Sleeping beauty. My DS3 loves the movies Cinderella and Toy story. I think part of the problem is that a majority of the marketing is teaching kids they should be princesses or pirates without a lot in the middle.

 

[HydroGuy]

I think part of the problem is that a majority of the marketing is teaching kids they should be princesses or pirates without a lot in the middle.

I would put it differently that they are teaching kids to use their imagination. It is something where the American culture excels and helps us in countless ways including technological innovation and the arts.

 

[davolarcini]

I want to thank everyone for their replies...I love open forums, especially respectful thoughts...

That being said, this issue of gender I think has spun further out of control than I thought logically tied to what my original thought was. But that might have been my mistake, that might be the natural progression from what I said.

Me and my kids love DLR, or I wouldn't be on a site like this, talking about it. I have two older girls (19 and 16) and two boys (12 and 7). The boys love the parks. But did they love Cars, sure. Did they love Star Tours, you bet. Did they love Jedi Academy, no, because they weren't picked, but we went three times to try....so really they loved it.

My point wasn't that there isn't any thing in DLR for boys....my point was that the imagination play time before and after the parks is never, I'm Winnie the Pooh,....no its my turn..you got to be him last time....Fine then I'm Dumbo....

My point was the wish identification isn't as strong with boys. But the Superheroes and Star Wars does provide that.

The other point that I haven't seen anyone argue or even face, Walt Disney's quote about Disneyland never being finished...only requirement is imagination.

Now I understand there are some that aren't purist, that don't want to see super heroes, because they don't get them. But there are some of us that don't get Pocahontas or why Abraham Lincoln is in the park...but just because that's our opinion doesn't mean that we should ban others..

On the ride/gender identification....
How did Splash Mountain become boys and Matterhorn Nuetral?
How is Dumbo boys?
How is Bambi (the anti-hunting and guns movie) become boys?

I think you made decisions based on the outcome you wanted....I want as many or more boy rides/movies than girl...Abracadabra....LOOK....I am kidding, I just disagree.

But on the issue of AUTOPIA.....anyone who thinks that fun is wrong, wait is that an opinion? probably.

Last time there my 6 year old rode with me and the 11 year old drove himself. As I am enjoying the 'fresh air' (sarcasm intended) and getting annoyed I started to develop road rage for the bad/slow driver in front of me. I started my muttering and grumbling, then a hairpin turn comes up and the driver turns and is heading toward us....its my 11 year old....road rage replaced by embarrassed laugh.

 

[HydroGuy]

My point wasn't that there isn't any thing in DLR for boys....my point was that the imagination play time before and after the parks is never, I'm Winnie the Pooh,....no its my turn..you got to be him last time....Fine then I'm Dumbo....

My point was the wish identification isn't as strong with boys.

Well as I mentioned I still do not agree with this.

Just look the four original "Lands" of DL.

- AdventureLand
- FrontierLand
- FantasyLand
- TomorrowLand

AdventureLand and FrontierLand appealed more to boys and their imagination.

FantasyLand arguably appealed more to girls.

TomorrowLand arguably appealed more to boys.

To some degree I am equating imagination to your term wish identification. Boys wish they were on an adventure in a jungle, or wish they were pirates, or wish they were Indiana Jones exploring strange corners of the world. They wish they were in the old west on the frontier. They wish they were flying through space to other worlds.

Even in FantasyLand there are chances for boys to identify with being a knight in shining armor or the adventure of NeverLand.

But the Superheroes and Star Wars does provide that.

I agree they provide it also. Especially Star Wars.

But maybe I am going back to my boyhood and while I watched Batman, Superman and Spiderman on TV, I never wished to be a superhero. They were not real people - except for Batman I guess.

I would identify way more with just plain heroes who were in some way mortal like me. The Star Wars heroes are people. No superpowers needed except for "The Force" which was not a super power but an extension of something natural (think Yoda).

I remember thinking at 14 years old when I saw Star Wars for the first time that it was just a western movie set in space. I loved westerns and loved Star Wars. For the same reasons.

I suppose you or others can argue I am out of touch in a way from my own boyhood experience and that of my own four sons but IMO Star Wars is a hundred or a thousand times more impactful on boys than Marvel superheroes.

The other point that I haven't seen anyone argue or even face, Walt Disney's quote about Disneyland never being finished...only requirement is imagination.

Now I understand there are some that aren't purist, that don't want to see super heroes, because they don't get them. But there are some of us that don't get Pocahontas or why Abraham Lincoln is in the park...but just because that's our opinion doesn't mean that we should ban others..

Yes DL is never finished but that does not mean that anything that involves imaginations fits.

I mean one of my big points of imagination and "wish identification" as a boy was with sports. I wished I could play baseball in the major leagues. Among me and my friends wish identification and pretending we were Steve Garvey or Johnny Bench or OJ Simpson was huge. Way, way, WAY huger in my neighborhood than with superheroes.

Does that mean that somehow that element of boy imagination should be part of a Disney park? How about a new land at DLR or WDW? SportsLand? Where boys can pretend they are sports stars?

I will be the first to admit that to my mind that does not fit with DL. It fits on Little League and Pop Warner fields around the country.

Similarly, the feel I have had about Disney parks since I was three years old does not "fit" with Superheroes. It is not about being purist. It is about being a cultural fit.

All of that is not to say I identify with everything in Disney parks. But heck I do not identify with everything in American culture either. But there are some things that I can see how they are part of our culture even though I do not identify personally, then there are other things that do not fit at all with American culture in the first place. Those are two different things.

On the ride/gender identification....
How did Splash Mountain become boys and Matterhorn Nuetral?
How is Dumbo boys?
How is Bambi (the anti-hunting and guns movie) become boys?

The PP who created this list was using a broad brush to make a point and not to try and write something that was 100% defensible. I think his point was valid and it resonates with my nearly 50 years experience with Disney that they have just as strong an appeal to boys as to girls - if not stronger.

I think your point has been the need for more boy oriented rides and themes and stories because they are lacking at Disney parks. I am saying that sounds very odd to me as I have never felt that way in nearly 50 years and thus disagree from my personal experience with your fundamental thesis on this.

It does not mean Disney is complete and should do nothing more oriented towards boys. By all means do it. But I do not think they should do it for reasons of somehow having been lacking in the past or present.

And I do think they need to make careful it fits.

Moreover, Disney realized this when they built DCA. They wanted it to be more edgy. To appeal to a little older crowd. Heck, alcohol is served at DCA. It fits there but it does not fit at DL. So rather than force alcohol into DL they built another park and made it fit. And to me it does.

Superheroes may need to go that direction as I said in my first post. I am not sure how popular it would be if they built a superheroes park. But if they wanted a place to put it then a separate park would be the place.

 

[MaloCS]

I love the idea of Star Wars or Marvel taking over Tomorrowland. Just like an old forest that has outgrown it's productivity, Tomorrowland needs to be burned down and allowed to start anew.

I love the idea of turning Tomorrowland into Star Wars land but I'll take Marvel land in a heartbeat. I agree with the original poster that having attractions that cater to boys would be a huge positive.

 

[davolarcini]

Hydroguy,

I love your responses, I don't entirely agree with them but I love them.

I think it's interesting that Star Wars is more widely accepted by DIS'ers than Marvel is. I grew up on both (in the 70's and 80's). I am a very typical geek...every thing from sci-fi, fantasy, superheroes, dungeons and dragons, you name it....even fantasy football.

I think it comes down to exposure. Superheroes, were something I identified with and enjoyed. But I am wondering now if I was the exception more than the rule.

Sure people watched cartoons, and maybe the cartoons and the bad live action shows, maybe that is one of the reasons the majority of the people don't want to see it in the parks. Maybe it's the perception of the poor quality.

Surely Indiana Jones is in no way shape or form, Disney...except that is well known and of great quality.

Marvel Superheroes were cheesy at times, at least the mass produced ones in cartoons and things like Batman and Robin...but the ones I read were deep, filled with relate-able challenges and sympathetic social problems. Their triumphs gave me hope, but the one's I am talking about were the ones from comic books, not the Saturday morning cartoons. Maybe if more saw the quality of story and imagination, it wouldn't look like it was out of place....at least for me it looks completely in place....although I think it fits better at DCA than DL

That said, I love how many people think Star Wars belongs or would fit at least. I love that some of my geek favorites fit somewhere, fill a little social validation.

Hydroguy, you said that the superheroes weren't a 'cultural fit'....what does that mean to you? Is there anything at all in the parks that you feel isn't a good cultural fit?

To the purist out there, I would be glad to see Superheroes and Star Wars out of DL and DCA if DLR would just work on a 3rd park that featured them,...now that's my idea of wish fulfillment...I would come just to see those.

 

[Dukland]

Well, my 10 year old son loves Disney and always has. But his biggest obsession has always been Spiderman. He is excited that Disney now owns Marvel and often says, "I hope Disneyland gets Spiderman at the park! Wouldn't that be cool?!?"

And this is coming from a kid with Aspergers who took a long time learning to talk. When he was 2.5 years he knew only a few words, but he surprised me by coming up with a new word at Disneyland. Buzz. And he wanted to see Buzz and get his autograph with a passion!!

We followed Buzz for over an hour, trying to get his autograph. At one point they "replaced" him with a "new" Buzz. The new Buzz wasn't doing autographs, but wanted to dance in Tomorrowland. My son kept grabbing his autograph book and holding it out to Buzz while Buzz was dancing.

On another visit, when that son was older, my youngest was about 2.5. He watched his brother, and later both brother and big sister, "fight" Darth Vader and Darth Maul. (My poor daughter was put against Darth Maul and when he came toward her she was terrified Poor sweetie) My youngest son is now 7. We haven't been back to Disneyland since that visit when he was 2.5. And all he wants to do is defeat Darth Vader and go see Cars Land. He would love to see Marvel heroes, too, especially Iron Patriot, and he hopes Dusty, from Planes, is there, too.

Given little boys' (and big boys!) love of both Marvel and Star Wars, Disney would be stupid to not capitalize on that. And we know Disney will do every decent thing they can do to earn money at their parks.

I don't think Tomorrowland should be taken over by Star Wars, either, but there is a lot of room for Star Wars to have lots of space for really cool and appealing stuff.

And I'm sure Marvel can be incorporated into the park, too. Perhaps there is more room for Marvel at California Adventure, rather than Disneyland?

We haven't been there in so long Dh is finally talking about a trip down there again. I really want my youngest to get a visit in before he's much older.

 

[HydroGuy]

Hydroguy,

Surely Indiana Jones is in no way shape or form, Disney...except that is well known and of great quality.

How is Indiana Jones any less of a fit than POTC or JC? They are adventure. Immersive. To my mind Indy is the exact type of ride that fits in Adventureland. I mean how is Indy less of a fit than Tower of Terror? ToT tells a rich, immersive story. Brilliant.

Hydroguy,

Hydroguy, you said that the superheroes weren't a 'cultural fit'....what does that mean to you?

Hard to define but I know it when I see it. I think one element is what I said before. Superpowers. Disney tends to be about real people with real issues and real limitations. Superhero powers seems like cheating.

Also there is often a sense of family and personal connection. Superheroes are not real people and not someone you can relate to. They are kind of non-human.

The only thing I can think where Disney approaches this is with The Incredibles movie. But one thing that made it work was the family. While they had superpowers they seemed very human at the same time. And Disney has not built any rides based on The Incredibles. Why?

Hydroguy,

Is there anything at all in the parks that you feel isn't a good cultural fit?

Sure. Paradise Pier and the carnival games at DCA is a jarring lack of cultural fit. AK at WDW has something kind of similar in DinoLand.

CA Screamin does not tell a story. It is just a ride. It does not really fit at a Disney park unless Disney goes Six Flags on us.

At DL I cannot think of anything. I think everything they do there fits.

 

[Nosepass]

Star Wars in Tomorrowland is a good idea, it fits the atmosphere of TL while diversifying the park's offerings in general.


Marvel feels a little.... I dunno, cheap? Not very Disney magic, to say the least.

 

[LizzyS]

I love how people are always complaining about Tomorrowland and acting like they should scrap it entirely and start all over, forgetting the best ride in the park sits in the back: SPACE MOUNTAIN.

It's not even my favorite, but that's the best ride to be had at Disneyland.

 

[Mugglemama]

Marvel feels a little.... I dunno, cheap? Not very Disney magic, to say the least.

I was thinking something very similar to this. Marvel feels very "Walmart-ish" to me, personally. I think of Spiderman or Hulk (and I love Hulk, BTW - I have every movie AND the *entire* original series on DVD) or Ironman and I immediately think of Walmart, dollar stores, and swap meets.

I don't mind buying my boys Star Wars-related items (voice-changing clone trooper helmet, anyone?), but, with the exception of one Hulk action figure I bought for my oldest son about a decade ago, I have avoided bringing any hokey Marvel toys into our home. I haaaaate that stuff. Even DC doesn't feel "cheap" to me the way Marvel does. I buy my boys Batman-themed Legos without batting an eye.

I do have some degree of confidence that Disney could make it feel not-so-cheap in their parks...but IDK for sure...and if they *couldn't* it would definitely bring down the "quality" feel of DLR to me.

That said...and don't get me wrong - I also *hate* Star Wars, lol...I would very much welcome the switchout of tired Tommorowland attractions for fun SW-themed ones. I think Star Wars, as a brand, has retained it's "quality" feel. I also don't think SW feels out of place in a Disney park.