WDW Dining Changes - Any Conspiracy Theories Out There?

I'm so disappointed in Mr. Kidds...
Don't fret, my 'less than car #3' compatriots, Mr. Kidds is not dead yet ;).

Ever see the movie The Patriot. The battle at the end, the colonial troops begin to break and run, Mel Gibson is a bit back from the front line, he sees the line falling, the men retreating, and he picks up the flag and charges forward. He fights more, gets wounded, but refuses to lose. So Mr. Kidds is wounded - but I am far from dead!! Just remember, the colonials won the battle, and the war. So shall we ;).
 
Disney is a business.....it was a business when Walt ran it and it's a business now...
would you rather they ran the thing into the ground and went bankrupt? (like several well known conglomerates have been doing this past year?)...

we go every year, and yes we're bothered by some stupid penny wise/dollar foolish sorts of decisions, but at the end of the day, it's a going concern and year in and year out provides my family with a wonderful escape from the real world....

as for restaurants/character meals...
we'll always miss the Melvin the Moose breakfast....our all time favorite...
 
I am reluctant to start this mess again, but clearly there has been some misunderstanding! I don’t know how that could have happened after ten+ pages of (dare I say) “poetic” posts, but it did. So, once more - -With feeling!!
Some here believe the sole reason the Observation deck is now closed to the general public is because ME is trying to squeeze more money from CG by adding more tables,(in some respect I think you're giving him too much credit for realizing a way to make money).
Ei$ner had nothing to do with it. Directly that is. Indirectly, however, he is ultimately responsible. He sets the agenda, tone and culture for the organization. The smart VPs and managers KNOW his mind or at least what he likes and does not like. They do their best to stay a step ahead of him or at least out of the line of fire and off his radar screen. In this it is no different from any other organization in the world!

What I assert is plain enough. Because it has been decreed that every square inch of WDW become a self sustaining profit center, managers, even middle and lower managers, are under very heavy pressure to increase profit AND cut costs.

Maybe you have to be a bit cynical, but the reason for the deck closure, under these circumstances is quite clear. A middle manage saw an opportunity to increase profits at the California Grill. He put up more tables. Pretty simple! He took a relatively unused portion of the lounge and crammed some tables into it. Even under the best of circumstances it would not have been my choice. It has the feel of the lounge and is quite separate from the dining room! Not the most optimum of choices! But, for a couple extra bucks they decided to do it.

But in doing so they created a huge traffic and crowd control problem. They greatly reduced the capacity of the lounge and more importantly narrowed, severely, the aisle to gain access to the deck. Of course this would become problematic!! And let’s face it, the deck hadn’t just become a popular hang out for the fireworks within the last six months. They knew that a lot of people enjoyed the view and made the nightly trek to the deck. What were they thinking?!?!

I’ll tell you. They did not care!! Plain and simple. Just didn’t care.

“Hmmmm”, they thought. “Paying customers that make me look like a hero because of a slightly better bottom line, or making life easy for the ingrates that don’t put a dime in my ledger books?”

Who do you think would win that battle?

Are 200 paying guests more profitable then 100 guests?
Man!! I thought I was… ah… well… let’s say… “creative’, when it comes to numbers when I need to make a point!! But where in the heck did you ever pull out those figures!!

Are hoards of people trapesing(sp) thru the restaurant to get a peek at the fireworks "bad show" for those dinner guests ? Yes. What should management have done ?
Simple!! Not put up the additional four to six tables for the greater good of WDW. Gee! That question was easy. Next!!

MiaSRN62 writes:
I'm sorry if this sounds poetic----I don't mean for it to be.
Nah! I’m the one who’s ‘poetic’. But I don’t think it was meant as a compliment! But hey!! After dealing with DisDuck, The Pirate, The Captain, Eyesnur, Mr. Kidds and Scoop, I’ll take whatever I can get!! So I will take it as a compliment!! THANKS!!! :bounce:

”Judging from the attendance figures over the last three years, there appear to be millions of people who feel exactly the same way."

Or maybe they've lost their jobs, or their portfolio is in the toilet, or they're afraid to fly or travel.
Yeah, could be, but I doubt it. The economy, while certainly not stellar, isn’t as bad as your scenario would indicate.

I think it’s probably more along the lines of my sister-in-law. She is a Disney fan although not quite as big a fan as me. And she’s in a slightly less economic bracket. Her trips happened every four or five years. However, since Disney has severely cut back on hours (and over all choices) and has gotten even more expensive than before, she is now opting for a Disney vacation every six to seven years. And when she goes next time she’s planning on eating at least half of their meals outside of WDW. I’m afraid Disney has lost her. She’ll still plan on it for her kids, but the reality is, she’d rather not go at all!!

From my good friend and fellow car dweller, Mr. Kidds!!!
Don't fret, my 'less than car #3' compatriots, Mr. Kidds is not dead yet
NO!! Of course not!! You have seen the light and come alive, my friend!! It is only by knowing and accepting the truth, that you will really become happy!! I have a ball every time I go!! But I can also see the waste, lost potential, ineptness, lack of creativity and unmitigated greed. I just don’t let it interfere!! You’ll get the hang of it!! It just takes a little bit of practice!!

disneyholic family I have to ask a question.
Disney is a business.....it was a business when Walt ran it and it's a business now...would you rather they ran the thing into the ground and went bankrupt? (like several well known conglomerates have been doing this past year?)...
Do you think they would really be in danger of doing so? Do you think the things Walt did would eventually run the company into the ground? Do you think that by radically changing the Disney Philosophy they prevented a bankruptcy?

I don’t.
 
we go every year, and yes we're bothered by some stupid penny wise/dollar foolish sorts of decisions, but at the end of the day, it's a going concern and year in and year out provides my family with a wonderful escape from the real world....

This may be the main reason there is not nearly enough being reinvested into the parks. The subtle changes are tolerated by the regular attendees. The money continues to be spent by these patrons year after year and there does not appear to be an imminent threat of that changing.

I do believe however, that the regulars aren't going to be enough to cover the bottom line. There has to be a reason for that once in a while traveller to attend. This is the person looking at the cost of this trip in a very real manner. They have probably been there before and are very aware of what is and what isn't being offered. You cannot sell them solely on hyped up magic and they do not necessarily feel that invisible pull that gets the disney lover to freely spend their hard earned money! .
 


"Nah! I’m the one who’s ‘poetic’. But I don’t think it was meant as a compliment! "

Not as an insult either, just my sense of humor,( I also never learned how to use the all forgiving yellow happy faces).


"Yeah, could be, but I doubt it. The economy, while certainly not stellar, isn’t as bad as your scenario would indicate."

Or maybe it is. Didn't WDW's peek attendance figures coincide with peek DOW and NAS numbers. Doesn't the attendance now virtually mirror the decline of both markets ? Then throw in 9/11 and Iraq just for good measure. We Diz fanatics notice peeling paint,3 chicken fingers,observation deck,etc, and has it stopped us from going to the World ? Hasn't stopped me. I don't feel the vast majority is aware of the topics we discuss here and I don't think they are the major cause in attendance decline.



"Man!! I thought I was… ah… well… let’s say… “creative’, when it comes to numbers when I need to make a point!! But where in the heck did you ever pull out those figures!!"

Out of thin air,they were never presented as factual,just examples. Personally, I've never been to CG or the "deck". My only point of reference for those numbers basically came from you-your description of all the additional tables being "jammed" into CG. Now you state it's 4-6 table, I assumed many more.


") and has gotten even more expensive than before, she is now opting for a Disney vacation every six to seven years. "

No arguement, Disney is expensive and they have cut back. But I'm also reading of some pretty deeply discounted room offers out there, in the order of 40-50%. In the latest round of annual park ticket price increase, I read in the Or Sent that US/IOA & SW raised theirs,Disney did not. Restaurant prices across the nation vary greatly. I tend to eat at the more up-scale locations while at WDW and don't feel the prices are terribly out of line with my local dining choices.

Love to play more,but gotta get back to work.
 
Fun IS good enough for Disney world.
Is that the policy that got Disney to be Disney? PW is a complete joke as a Disney attraction. Yeah, its fun. But most of us can find that kind of fun within 100 miles of our homes. Why go any further?

I will put a bright spin on anything they give during the dark times knowing that eventully things will once again turn around.
Let's get back to reality. This is not a fantasy movie that we've seen before. We do not know how this will turn out. There is no guarantee that the "dark times" will ever end. When you consider that these "dark times" are the direct result of the business model that management subscribes to, there's really no reason to even suspect it might end. Certainly one ride in AK (FM) wouldn't be enough to convince any reasonable person that the philosophy had changed. Even Eyesnur, I mean Eisner, knows you have to build something eventually.

...and like it or not money does have to be the main impetus in running a conglomerate like Disney...
Yes, and I'd like to see them continue to make some of it. Like it or not, Disney parks and films are creative content driven. Focusing on financial goals does not produce creativity. But creativity can produce lots of money, and therefore meet those financial goals.

The hypothetical scenerio I laid out wasn't meant to debate who has rights to the beach but rather the hard choices management must make when situations get out of hand.
An important piece of good managment is acting proactively, keeping situations from getting out of hand in the first place. Further, it does not settle for the easy solution. Of course, managing this way is not easy, and in many companies, its not even an expectation. That's one of the differences between average companies and exceptional ones.

Disney and Guests will need to learn to adjust and live with this (changes/policies etc).
Agree completely with AV here...customers do not need to learn to do anything. Very few companies who think otherwise survive.

The mere fact that so many frustrated folks remain so drawn to discuss and visit it only furthers my resolve that the Scoop sees the light and not just the tunnel walls...
True, indifference would be worse, but by the time you get there, its too late.

would you rather they ran the thing into the ground and went bankrupt?
I didn't realize the only two choices were the status quo or bankruptcy...
 
The idea that Disney must either file for Bankrupcy or maintain the status quo is absolutly ludicrous.
1: Disney has been through tough economic times before. The 70's, the early 90s...

What's that you say? the Early 90s? you remember? No new Taxes. Japan will become the super power yada yada yada. OR have you all forgotten. And what did Disney DO back then?

Lets see, they opened Disney MGM studios, they built multiple new rides, they built Euro Disney (the quality and logic of what they built is not my point, that they spent the money is) They built pretty much all of the moderate resorts at this time. Along with starting in motion Animal Kingdom. And for nerely 10 years, It was nothing but raking in the cash, SO DON'T TELL ME THAT THE COMPANY MUST CUT BACK IN ORDER TO MAKE MONEY, That kind of comment shows an ignorance of recent Disney history that is inexcusable when discussing these kinds of topics.

The ONLY thing that is Dragging Disney through the mud is ABC, Go.com, ABCfamily etc etc.

When Walt built Disneyland he intended for the steady profits to fund his movie studio, that is true, but he never let funding the studio come in the way of making Disneyland everything he wanted it to be. AND GUESS WHAT, People have a life long love of Disney parks, because they are what Walt wanted them to be, so doesn't it make some small (huge) amount of sense to follow the build it and they will come instead of the Pinch it and they will still stay those fools meathod?
 


Yet, I hear very little suggestion that those "bad times" if not "worst times", were caused by straying from Walt's philosophy. Heck, that's the very time that what many consider to be Disney's last great stateside park was built.


Might I suggest Mr. Scoop that those "Bad" Times (we have some former employee's who may disagree with you) have very much to do with both the Film Library and new Animated releases and very little to do with the Themeparks.

And I would suggest that today's bad Disney situation has also very little to do with themeparks (although Euro DIsney, Animal Kingdom and DCA have something to do with it) but rather poor decisions elsewhere (ABC, Go.com etc.)

The issue vis a vis the parks is that they are now making unWalt like Decisions that will cause trouble down the road.

IT isn't that a lack of mickeyhead butter caused Disney Stock to fall, but that a lack of Mickeyhead butter (along with everything else) will destroy everything in the future.

Notice How Another Voice more often then not discusses a lack of longterm vision. Of only looking from Quarter to quarter. The nickle and DIming of Disney World will have long term effects. he current situation has different causes.


Maintaining a Walt Philosophy with the Parks only serves to make sure the parks are worth going to in the future. the real problem is maintaining a Walt Philosohy with the movies, the purchasing, the television shows. Not that Walt didn't make some clunkers, but, that philosophy of excellence certainly wouldn't have let so much money be spent on so little.
 
I don't really know which factor is the biggest cause of Disney's attendance drop, revenue drop, stock price, etc, etc, etc.

I have never claimed that outside forces like the economy and geo-political issues are periphery in nature.

When it comes to financial performance and attendane, maybe management's mistakes are 80% of the problem. Maybe they're only 5%. I suspect it's somewhere in between, but again, I don't know for sure.

What I do know is that managment has no control over outside forces, but does have 100% control over their philosophy and their decision-making. They would be falling short in this area regardless of what the outside climate was like. A poor economic environment does not excuse their mistakes, just as a strong economic environment does not excuse them either.

Disney's philosophy and business model are a part of the problem. How big a part is not all that important, in the context of our discussions. The point of our discussions is what is Disney doing, and what should they be doing.

Disney's peformance will continue to rise and fall with the tide of the economic environment in which they exist. But how they rise and/or fall within that tide is what we are discussing.
 
Scoop - see if you think this fits.

Disney would be having a hard time in today's business, political, and tourism environment no matter hat they did. That hard time has only been exacerbated by Disney's bad decisions and wandrings from the traditional Walt philosophy.

What do you think?

The real trick is determining if that hard time has been made 1x, 10x, or 100x worse than it had to be.

In the past, Disney survived the hard times as economic and tourism downturns do tend to pass. The only difference is that the theme park portion of the business is being taxed moreso today than at any time in the past to prop up failed Disney ventures. That is most likely because the theme parks are the biggest fish in a growing pond of Disney fish. In the past the theme parks were really the only fish in the pond.
 
Heck, consider hopemax's research that shows that the largest reduction in park hours occurred around 1994---yet soon after WDW's attendance trends started going to up compared to the late 1980s. In fact, since 1994 until recently, WDW had its peak attendance time of the mid to late 1990s.

This is what you really got out of that?

Combined attendance

1993: 29.5 million
1994 28.9 million
1995: 33.1 million
1996: 35 million

1994: Significant cutbacks in hours (starting October 1993)
1995: Hours returned to 1993 levels
1996 - 1997: Hours increased for 25th anniversary celebration

Attendance did not keep rising after the hours were cut.
 
May I say that the following is the cogent, well thought out and lucid concept regarding Disney, philosophy and the universe!!

Disney would be having a hard time in today's business, political, and tourism environment no matter what they did. That hard time has only been exacerbated by Disney's bad decisions and wanderings from the traditional Walt philosophy.

What do you think?
I think it is WELL SAID!!




PS: Your training is nearly complete, grasshopper!! ;)
 
I thought it was in general agreement based upon comments by Baron and other that hours have decreased since 1984 through the 1980s and through today.
WHOA!!!!

Never said any such thing, Scoop!!!

I said, time after time, that summer hours (where I am an expert!) used to be midnight!! In 1998 (it may have been 1997 as I wasn’t there that year) they cut hours for the very first time!!!

OK!! That makes 437 times I've written that paragraph!!!
 
"Heck, consider hopemax's research that shows that the largest reduction in park hours occurred around 1994."

Yep - one time you gotta to pay for Euro Disney. Another time you gotta pay for ABC.

The parks won't be good again until we stop paying for Michael Eisner.
 
I believe Landbaron has stated that the 1980's summer hours were longer than the 1998 - present summer hours. I don't remember hearing him voice any complaints about summer hours in the 1990's up until 1998.
 
Park hours were cut in '94 around October?? Yet another "mark the beginning of decline" with the passing of Frank Wells.
 
No, the cuts started in October *1993* (isn't that what I said above?) So these cuts were during the Wells era. The accident wasn't until April 1994. It was, however, during the $1 Billion contibution the Disney company had to make to keep Euro Disney operating (thus AV's comment).
 
I'm starting to understand that a major car 3 issue is that monies earned by the parks are being siphoned off for other purposes,ie ABC, GO.Com, yada,yada,yada, ( a condition which is not an uncommon business practice,but that's not the point). I curious to know what kind of funds were channeled back into the parks prior to these acquisitions. Were the profits spent more for man-power or attractions ? Or was it paid out in stock dividends ? I'm not sure of the time line of events, but I assume MK,Epcot & MGM were making billions of dollars before ME went on his spending spree. Is it concievable that this kind of money was ever put back into the parks ?
 
Scoop!! Didn’t you read my post?!?! It’s only four away from yours!!! No wonder you never understand what I'm saying!!! ;)

And Hope (as usual) is absolutely correct!!! Let me reiterate!!!

I thought it was in general agreement based upon comments by Baron and other that hours have decreased since 1984 through the 1980s and through today.
WHOA!!!!

Never said any such thing, Scoop!!! I said, time after time, that summer hours (where I am an expert!) used to be midnight!! In 1998 (it may have been 1997 as I wasn’t there that year) they cut hours for the very first time!!!

OK!! That makes 438 times I've written that paragraph!!!
 

GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE

Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.

Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!





Latest posts







Top