TOT and Coaster announced for TDS

[raidermatt]

That's why I was saying if DAK was 1/2 day, then TDS is, too. They are both beautiful and fun parks.

We've had threads on this before, but really, the main issue with AK isn't the number of things to do. If enough people found AK's attractions and atmosphere as compelling as TDS, there would be much less criticism and fewer folks labeling it as a "1/2 day park".

Yes, there would be complaints if promised build-outs never occured, but nothing like the complaints we hear today.

TDS was simply built to higher standards, with more resources to make it happen.

 

[d-r]

Hi everyone,
There are so many things in this thread that I want to reply to! I'm really enjoying it - I hate to do it, but I think I'm going to have to reply in a series of posts to keep my thoughts straight - even then I'll probably mess something up

But first, how bout them Tigers, Scoop?

Second, I'd have to say that I agree with AV. AV has some really good insights here. I think there is a difference in how Americans and Japanese view crowds. Tokyo Disney Sea is very crowded, to me. But then again, it isn't any worse than some of the busier Tokyo streets on a Friday night. Those really hop, too. Honestly, one of the best things I did - and I didn't plan this out because I was so smart or had any foresight - was to wait until I had been in Japan for three weeks before going. I was only trying to split my trip in half - I'm here for five weeks. But I was really glad to have my head around Japan, just a little bit (don't get me wrong, I don't begin to understand Japan; every time I think I figure something out, something contradicts it). But a smattering of phrases I could say, and I could recognize a couple of words, which helped to get the gist of things sometimes. If I'd come straight from a bus from Narita, I might have been shell-shocked - it's hard to say. The flip side is, I think if someone was going to be in Japan for a while, and wanted to learn about Japan, then the parks would be a good way to start; so many of the signs and everything are in English, the cast members are there to help you. It is easier to approach strangers, which can be hard in Japan. So I could see that either way.

Anyway, I agree with what AV said about crowds. You also have to understand that Japanese people know how to behave in crowds. The rules are a little different than in America. When the parks open, people RUN to attractions. That would be more chaos in America, and people might even get hurt (my opinoin of course, like everything else I'm writing). In Japan, it never felt out of control. In Japan, I came to see that a line was two-dimensional; it had width as well as length. In America, you or your party holds a space in a length line; if someone comes to beside your position or passes you, that is cutting in line. In Japan, if there is an empty space beside you, someone will fill it. If that side of the line goes faster than yours, they will pass you. That isn't cutting - everybody has to move through this space and that is the most efficient way. Your side may pass up next. Everybody is going to get there. But that is hard for an American perspective. I'm not sure if I am able to really explain this in writing. The only part where that breaks down and is difficult, to me at least, is when the line has to pass thorugh a narrow space, like a turnstyle or doorway. Then it is tougher - no one pushes or shoves, but there is no personal space zone, either. It wouldn't work like that in America, people would loose their patience and temper.

AV is also right on target about the length of the line being seen as an indication that something good is at the end of it. Hence the sausage roll line. Also, if something is "popular" people will do it for the sake of doing it. Some celebrities were shown on tv having the sausage roll when it first opened, and that is where the popularity of it first started. Then it just keeps functioning off of itself. This is a little bit of the understanding of pooh-san, too (but I think more of the explanation there is that the ride is COOL).

AV is right about the open/close. The shortest line I had, though early in the morning, was sinbad.

I also have to add to AV's post that there are 10 million people a train ride away from those parks. A lot of them are big Disney fans, and a lot of them have disposable income (think office ladies). And there are another 40-50 million odd people in the country. It is crowded everywhere in Tokyo - it doesn't suprise me at all that the disney parks are busy!

One last thing where I'm going to depart from AV and Matt by about 50%. I'm not going to argue the opposite, because I don't believe it. But I think it is in the middle. And, really, there is no way to ever prove or demonstrate such things, so anything anyone says is just their opinion on such thought experiments. But anyway, I honestly think that if Ca. Adventure had been built where TDS is, it would have been more successful than it has been in Anaheim. I am not trying to say that it would be as successful as TDS!! No way. Japanese people aren't naive. When TDS first opened, the first few days, the crowds there were extremely lower than expected. Most people figured that they would be crowded with opening, so they decided to wait a while before they went when the crowds went down. They had to remarket really quick, and it quickly caught on. I also think that if TDS was built were DCA was, it would not be as successful as it is in Tokyo. It would be more successful than DCA!! I believe that by a long shot!! But every weekend day wouldn't be "Christmas or Easter," either. And there would probably still have been some folks that complained about it

OK, just my opionions of course, and I want to reply to some of these other posts-
DR

 

[d-r]

WTG2000-
I've enjoyed reading your posts so much. Thanks for taking the time to write them. I really like your point of view and insights.

I'm going to reply to your post:

Originally posted by wtg2000
New things tend to draw crowds. I remember lining up for miles to ride Disneyland's Indy Jones, and new rides at WDW also get long, long lines. People realize that they are going to have to line up when something is new. I don't think it's endemic to the Japanese.

I agree with this about 50%. I really do believe that Japanese folks have a higher line tolerance than most Americans. At least this American

I also don't think there's really a shortage of attractions compared to crowd levels - at least not anything out of the ordinary. I didn't find the lines any worse than past years at WDW over Chirstmas or Easter.

OK. Now we've got down to it. Here is the difference in our perceptions! I think that WDW over Christmas and Easter *IS* out of the ordinary!! Now, this is a matter of personal taste and experience. We don't go to WDW at times like that, so to me the crowds at TDS probably seemed much longer than to you! It's funny you said it like that, because I someone asked me the other day how the crowds were compared to the US, and I said "no worse than the 4th of July!"

As for TDS itself - I was completely awestruck by the park. The detail is amazing and there are tons of wonderful nooks and crannies to explore. Standing in Med Harbor gazing up at Mt. Promethus is perhaps the coolest site in any Disney park, except for maybe standing inside the volcano itself - with people screaming on Journey, steam pouring off the caldera, the transit steamer whistle blowing, geysers shooting up from the water. For me, the park had more atmosphere than any Disney park, which each section setting a distinct mood, from the chaos of the volcano to the serentiy of the New England village.

OK. I'm going to try to reply to you here, and catch Gcurling's question as well. Gcurling, I'm just catching up on my schedule here; I gave a couple of talks this morning, and tomorrow I have a whale watching boat! I explain this to say I still want to write a longer trip report, so if I don't cover your question enough here I should have more detail later. I hope.

Anyway, wtg2000! I agree with you! I just don't feel as strongly as you do. The detail is amazing, I really enjoyed it. Sometimes I think that photos on the web do not demontrate well enough how pretty it is, other times I think photos over-exagerate how pretty it is. I'm a little bit in between, and honestly, I was never really "awe-struck." I thought that the aquasphere was very cool, and I enjoyed watching it. I thought the volcano was cool, but it wasn't the coolest site to me, really. What is it, four stories tall? The "eruptions" looked like "hollywood" fire to me - those movie effect fires. It never really convinced me, erupting or not. That said, I think it is very cool!

One thing that I wasn't prepared for that disapointed me a bit in terms of "show" was the transitions from one area of the park to another. They did a pretty good job at this at TDS, I was really struck by it the next day at TDL. Sometimes the transitions seemed abrupt to me. And even when there was a transition, it just seemed sort of a surface level thing. For example, where the path joins mermaid lagoon and arabian coast. Up to a point, the streetlights are mermaid lagoon style, then there is the last one, and then the next one is arabian coast style. It was a little too abrupt for me, not smooth. Others probably see that differently. I think I grew up on WDW's magic kingdom which, to me, does a really good job of transitions, so maybe I am more sensitive to it than others. For example, another thing was, the court house in "cap cod" is on the side of the volcano, which kept reminding me more of a missionary church on some hawaiian island than cape cod...again, just me, I'm sure.

Now, don't get me wrong. That fortress on the side of the Mountain is very cool, a very cool sight. Arabian coast is really well done, as well. It is like a little bit of adventureland, a little bit of Epcot's Morrocco. The "winding back alleys" aren't as good as Morocco's, to me, but the theater and the carousel are beautiful. Also, I don't know if you can tell from pictures, but the buildings in Med. Harbor are all painted to look like that. In real life you can tell that it isn't really "bricks" or whatever, it is painted on, and the artistry and craftsmanship in that is really neat.

The main American part feels sort of like MGM studios to me. It was well done, and so was the Columbia boat. A lot of people are really impressed with the Columbia, it didn't do so much for me, but I thought it was cool that they did it.

Port discovery is harder for me to describe. In one way it feels like Epcot's future world. It feels a lot like it, except it doesn't have that "open" feel that future world has. I remember standing there and thinking about the rumors here that they would "close off" future world some so it wouldn't be so open, and it was really making me wish that this wouldn't come true! The area is more compact, with the cues to storm rider and aquatopia taking up any feeling of open space. I thought that the storm rider building itself was cool enough, and aquatopia is fun to watch if you are right by it, but over all I didn't like this land.

Just getting to Journey and 20,000 is great fun and I almost enjoyed lining up. There's so much more to say but not enough time.

Now this is one of those places where I really enjoy reading your take on it, because it is where we depart company. I came to really dread and hate the thought of going through the chaldea! I think it is a fundamental design flaw of the overall park, actually. The chaldea becomes sort of a defacto hub. Even though they are right by each other, there is no direct path from Med. harbor to arabian coast. If you want to go from Med. harbor, or really the front of the park, to Arabian coast or Mermiad lagoon, you go through the chaldea. If you want to go to lost river, you go through the chaldea, or you go around through American Harbor and port discovery. Port Discovery or American Harbor to Mermaid Lagoon or Arabian coast? The most direct way is, through the Chaldea. Now, that wouldn't be so bad, except they put two e-ticket rides, that sausage roll, a gift shop, and a nautilas display in that chaldea! Sometimes it was a complete wall to wall flow of people in there. Which reminds me, remember that Japanese drive on the left, so their inclination is to walk on the left side. Sometimes the traffic through there was so much you had to get in a lane and go with it. Yes, it is cool looking.

I found the new Walt Disney Studios in Paris to be an embarrassment - but that's another story.

You know, I thought for a minute that I was going to be going to Europe in April, and I thought "I'll do it, but only if I go to disneyland." Thank goodness, I won't be going. It would be toooo much traveling for me too fast. But I look forward to seeing it someday, because I haven't.

(by the way - I've been to every Disney except DCA)

Well, I've been to dca. I think it is OK and not as bad as some of the local folks who really hate it, but I do want to tell you not to worry about missing it I don't think I'd plan a special trip or anything That said, I thought that Soarin was really cool, and that Grizzly rapids was good. Plus I got a really fresh tortilla, from a machine that seemed much like the ones making tortillas in the grocery store

DR

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by larworth
I was a little taken aback by the reported cost for these two projects

ToT @ $180 million
Spinning Coaster @ $70 million

One thing is, it is my understanding that ToT was part of the original desing for the American section of the park, but was nixed at construction time, because the land wasn't solid enough to support it. So I've been guessing that some of this cost comes from the preparation of the land. You have to remember that the bay is basically right across a street from this section of the park.

As for spinning coasters, whenever I put spinnng cars on a mini-steel coaster in roller coaster tycoon bad things happen It didn't strike me that this coaster would be a wild mouse; I pictured in my mind DLP's Indiana Jones coaster.

Just thinking about these makes me wish even harder for a new e-ticket to DAK, because I always thought that dinoland would get something like the Ind. Jones coaster as the excavater, but we wound up with the wild mouse.

Here is my prediction - they will announce a very exciting new e-ticket attraction for DAK on April 22, and it will be very cool.

DR

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
D-R, Thank you for the comparison. It was extremely enlightening for those of us who have absolutely no desire to vacation on the other side of the planet, but are also Disney fans.

It's nice to know that it is a nice park, but nothing you described would make me spend however much $ it would take to vacation over there. (plane tix, passport, lodging, park tickets, etc.... I'd imagine it'd be a hefty cost to vacation in Tokyo for a week...)

Thanks.

One last thing though... Maybe I didn't catch it in your posts, but how did the "atmosphere" compare with the likes of WDW's MK, MGM, DAK, and Epcot? Similar, better, worse???

Hi, I hope that my post up there helped a bit with that second question. I'll try to write more later, but I wanted to write one little thing.

And remember this is just my opionion, and I'm pretty sure that others won't agree. And also remember that I'm not trying to sound like an "Expert" or anything, just my humble opinion.

I believe that if you were already going to Japan, then you should by all means go.

I think that if you are a really big Disney parks fan and enthusiast, it would be worth it to go just to see what it is all about for yourself.

But I think if you want to take the kids to a theme park and have a good time, you'd be happier at one of the two American parks. I say this because of the language of the attractions, crowds, costs, etc. I think that for most folks, they'd have more fun at DL Ca. or WDW.

Again, jmho.

DR

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by Judy from Boise
Lots of interesting points ! When I was at TDS I spent a few hours being "blown away ".
These correlated with the time I spent watching the fabulous shows.......to wandering the park basicly wondering
"Where's the beef ? "....
this was when I was circulating the park for the 4th time looking for something to do that didn't involve a 60-90 minute wait !
The park will be immensely improved by two new rides that will disperse the crowds a bit.

I'm so glad that you wrote this, thank you It makes me feel a little bit less like I must be crazy.

Thanks. I felt much the exact way. Up until about 1, it was great! Then it was downhill for a while, then closing was OK. And when I watched the videotapes I made, I was amazed by how many times I went from one end of the park to the other!

 

[wtg2000]

When I visited TDS, people ran when the gates opened. They had CMS all over motioning for people to slow down.

 

[Bob O]

I hate lines!!!!! I would never want to be in any park, even a disney park if all lines are 60-90 minutes long!!!! That would take away all enjoyment for me. With lines that long their is no way to get your money's worth if you are only experiencing 1 attraction every hour.
The japanese may tolerate long lines as part of their culture and i give them credit for that but i wouldnt tolerate it and most americans wouldnt either. I guess that the difference to living in a big country with wide open empty spaces and a small country with people packed in like sardines.

 

[wtg2000]

Bob O,

Tokyo does have fastpass so you can beat some of the lines that way. Also, the lines toward closing can really drop. I once rode 20,000 at TDS twice in the last half-hour. As well, I really didn't find the lines that bad. I once went to TDL in the middle of August (pre-fastpass) and the lines weren't any worse than my trip to DL in 1996 (95 minutes for Indy Jones and nobody seemed to mind).

As for Americans not lining up, the line for WDW's Peter Pan can easily reach an hour and people still get in it. I've seen Americans line up that long and more.

 

[Bob O]

As much as i LOVE Indy at DL when i wait 90 minutes for a ride/show my enjoyment goes way down so i make sure not to visit wdw and most theme/amusement parks when they are busy!!! I hate long lines!!!

 

[Judy from Boise]

just to prove that you aren't crazy...here is the close of my trip report written a little less than a year ago.

Some closing thoughts :
All in all I didn’t quite have the “magical” time I envisioned. I was disappointed with the few attractions I did have time to ride. I think I underestimated how important the “story”element is, I think with an English translation I would enjoy them more. Also I admit I have arrived at a point in my life where I am unwilling to wait for longer than 20 minutes for most things. The addition of FP to many of the rides ( which I just missed ) will greatly improve this aspect. I also missed the rush of a great coaster.

I went huge stretches at a time where I didn’t feel very “Disney”. The theming was suburb….but like I said sometimes I felt like I could have been in Vegas. The exception to this was the American Waterfront, inside the stores, the Water Carnival, and the Symphony show. And, of course when interacting with the CM’s.

My day may also have been colored by too much solitude. I spent the majority of the time by myself with no one to interact with. No one spontaneously talked to me, when I would initiate an interaction ( like picture taking ) they were polite and friendly….but even then no one asked me a question to keep it going. I had brought pictures of my family and post cards of Boise, I had envisioned some interest from strangers where we would talk, but it didn’t happen. I know it didn’t help that the only people in the park were hordes of High schoolers. I missed families.

On the positive side, it is unbelievable to think this park has only existed for 6 months. It is so fully realized landscaping wise. The themeing is great, and has many beautiful nooks and crannies. With this great foundation this park can only get better as new attractions are added. The two shows I went to were the best I have seen bar none. I am sure I would have been blown away by The Little Mermaid, but I just didn’t get it in. If I had it to do over I would hit the shows and do the transit steamer as priorities, and skip Storm Rider. I would just do JTTCOTE with fast pass, and I would bring my family. And, of course I would stretch my visit out to see both parks and stay onsite !

I hope I didn’t disappoint anyone with my review. I am also the type of person who usually enjoys things better the second time around, and I am sure there will be a second time someday !