Taking your children for holidays during school is illegal in the UK

[we"reofftoneverland]

They do. It's called "home schooling".

That made me laugh. You are right. Homeschool is a real option. But I am talking about something more flexible. My school district does not give home schoolers the curriculum. Home schoolers are on their own. This does not seem right to me.

But as an aside, I want to say that this is a great discussion. And I appreciate the back and forth (with all). For the record, I have children in public schools and have never taken any of them out for a vacation. But when I hear that it is illegal to take your kids out of school in England and in some areas in the us, I shudder. Because that is a police state. And we as Americans need to be more vigilant about this. We need to remember that the government works for us and answers to us. This is wrong. And in many cases it is wrong for a school to give students 0 for missing a week or two. I do think kids need to give notice ahead of time and they should try not to miss big exams.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Oh my. I'll try to simplify this.
In the US, most everyone can get basically the same high school diploma. And it means? Sometimes pretty much nothing, other times it's good up to impressive.

Are you thinking the work done by the average American high school student work equals the work done in a German Gymnasium? Nope. Not even close. Gymnasium has much higher overall standards. It is a rigorous program.

There are school levels below Gymnasium that are either for teaching trades, or allow a student to transition into gymnasium later, if their proficiency increases.
I see teaching valuable trade skills as a good thing. I think it's difficult to compare US High School to German Education Tracks. They are very, very different systems.

I dont think you read my post. I said that many studies showing american schools to be inferior to, lets say, European schools are not comparing apples to apples. I said that if you compare people who have completed the 12th or 13th grade in Germany, for example, to people who have completed 12th grade in the usa, the usa looks awful because Germany only lets a small percentage of its population complete what we consider high school (I.e.complete 12th grade).

 

[sam_gordon]

IMO, a child missing school for vacation is not much different than the child play "hooky". I do not think the law should get involved for a one week vacation. But I do think the law (ie: truancy) should be involved once the absences hit a certain limit (that limit could be argued).

If a school's policy is "0's for all work missed" and I sign my kid up there, that's on me.

 

[TLSnell1981]

The problem in Greece is quite the opposite. They believe government can provide EVERYTHING.

How is that different, than the U.S.?

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

So they shouldn't ge

Or, if you think they should get federal money, how do you determine how much $$ each school gets?

Actually I dont think schools should get federal money. Money for school should be raised only at the local level. That way the federal government does not get to boss local school districts around. The us spends way to much on education anyway. It spends more per capita than any other country.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

[QUOTE "Gumbo4x4, post: 54301450, member: 413844"]The problem in Greece is quite the opposite. They believe government can provide EVERYTHING.[/QUOTE]

Which is what we should watch out for. We are almost there (especially in terms of debt). What doesnt the government provide here?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

How is that different, than the U.S.?

Touché

 

[gwynne]

I dont think you read my post. I said that many studies showing american schools to be inferior to, lets say, European schools are not comparing apples to apples. I said that if you compare people who have completed the 12th or 13th grade in Germany, for example, to people who have completed 12th grade in the usa, the usa looks awful because Germany only lets a small percentage of its population complete what we consider high school (I.e.complete 12th grade).

I'm sorry I didn't explain it clearer.
German "high school" (gymnasium) studies are far more advanced than average US High school classes. They aren't even in the same league. They don't compare, and they aren't the same.
You can't say 12th grade finished here is the same as 12 or 13th grade (more accurately) completed there. It's not.
If you want something in the US that might compare, look at IB Diploma curriculum.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry I didn't explain it clearer.
German "high school" (gymnasium) studies are far more advanced than average US High school classes. They aren't even in the same league. They don't compare, and they aren't the same.
You can't say 12th grade finished here is the same as 12 or 13th grade (more accurately) completed there. It's not.
If you want something in the US that might compare, look at IB Diploma curriculum.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

I guess i just disagree with you on that point. I have lived in europe and have met many people who went to german gymnasium and graduated ib (very dissaffected) in france. I went to europe thinking that they did everything better but quickly realized id been brainwashed at a liberal arts college. I would argue that the american ap curriculum can hold its own against that of a german gymnasium any day!

 

[Colleen27]

But, we also can't be selective about who the rules are applied to and who they aren't (not directed at you, just saying BTW).

Why not? We as a society don't look at someone who stole a car and someone who stole a candy bar and condemn them both equally for the crime of theft. Why do we have to treat a family who commits the "crime" of vacationing during the school year the same as one who just doesn't care enough to get their child to school or who relies on a school-aged child as a childcare provider?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Why not? We as a society don't look at someone who stole a car and someone who stole a candy bar and condemn them both equally for the crime of theft. Why do we have to treat a family who commits the "crime" of vacationing during the school year the same as one who just doesn't care enough to get their child to school or who relies on a school-aged child as a childcare provider?

It sounds good in theory, but how do you prove who's guilty & who isn't? And who pays for the extra effort put into this?

Really, the only fair way is to reward A & B students with additional excused time off. But, you KNOW that won't sit well with some.

 

[Colleen27]

It sounds good in theory, but how do you prove who's guilty & who isn't? And who pays for the extra effort put into this?

Really, the only fair way is to reward A & B students with additional excused time off. But, you KNOW that won't sit well with some.

Our schools have a couple of mechanisms in place that go a long way with minimal added expense or effort.

First, we have a vacation notification process. It is up to the student/family to contact the teacher(s) to inform them of the planned absence, discuss how to deal with completing missed work, and get the teacher(s)' signature. That form goes to the front office, but there isn't an approval/rejection process like with some districts' educational trip rules. It is just kept on file to document the absences.

Second, "documented" absences, which include trips for which a form is filed and multiple-day illnesses with medical documentation, are counted per event rather than per day. So it takes longer for kids whose parents follow school policies and document any extended period of missed time to run into trouble with the school's absence limit than it does for kids who are cutting a day here and there or just plain not showing up.

It really is win-win - the schools have a policy with "teeth" to address problem situations that require intervention, while families have some flexibility to travel when they're able and those with chronic medical issues aren't caught up in policies that were never intended to apply to their circumstances (which happened from time to time in the district I grew up in - a friend who had major medical issues had to appeal to the school board to be able to graduate with us, despite keeping her grades up through multiple hospitalizations). I'm not sure it would work in some of the districts I've read about here on the DIS where families feel entitled to take frequent trips one after another without regard to the school calendar, but down here in lower-middle-class-land where families are doing well if they can afford an annual vacation it works very well.

 

[BostonJP]

Or, maybe people who think they are exceptional drivers should be able to ignore the speed limit. After all, some people drive better at 85 than others do at 45. Setting a one size fits all limit of 65 is obviously unfair to those who've demonstrated an ability to safely drive 85. So, clearly the rule shouldn't apply to them even if it is necessary for others

No, that's just silly.

Application of rules and laws should depend on how much one pays in taxes.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Wow, so much in one thread!

I do think making it illegal to pull kids from school is too much. I like relying on whether kids know the material rather than whether they were in the seat. But, I do see the chaos that would happen if everyone took off any time they wanted and nobody in a class of 27 kids was on the same page at the same time, so I agree with "discouraging" off-schedule vacations, but making exceptions possible.

I would love a modified year-round calendar myself (the one that still has summer longer than the other breaks, but splits it up more than the traditional way). I'd love to be able to take vacations at different times, but I also think kids grow a lot in non-academic areas during the summer and benefit from the "fresh start" of a new school year.

I think that the difference between an employer having strict rules about vacations and a school having them is that the government says I have to send my child to school. I realize there are some choices, but far fewer realistic ones compared to choosing where I work.

As far as how many hours are really needed for schoolwork, I do think work can be made up one-on-one (if the parent feels qualified) in quite a bit less time than the same work takes in school. Things simply take longer in a big group. And some things don't really need to be made up. Sure, art and music are important too, but those are things the kid is like to experience on vacation anyway, so I'm not worried about missing them for a few days.

And finally, personal disclosure - I have an average student. He gets decent grades, but he doesn't just sail through. And I have still let him miss two days to leave on vacation before the week-long break actually started. His father and I talked about it, and determined he could handle it. And we did it simply to get better flights, lower crowds, and spend more time with his grandparents. I think trips are valuable experiences, and as a substitute teacher (the kind who doesn't just show movies) I felt perfectly able to supervise the work his teachers were kind enough to send with us.

 

[TiffyRose]

The problem with that is that retention brings its own set of issues and risks, including a higher probability of dropping out of school. That's the reasoning behind many remedial, support, and special education programs - evidence supports promotion with extra help as a better approach than repeating grades.

However, retention for failure to keep up certainly makes more sense than failure for attendance violations regardless of academic performance, which is what a lot of schools are doing right now.



Absolutely we need rules. I'm not sure we need "zero tolerance", though, or criminal penalties over school attendance. The latter especially aren't helping anyone. I think the problem is the rise of one-size-fits-all being held up as a sensible/acceptable way of administering schools. The logic that declares a week's family vacation the same as just not showing up every Monday is the same logic that declares the bully and his victim equally guilty of fighting. Any common sense or consideration of context is being stripped away, and administrators are increasingly bound by policies that leave no room for the exercise of good judgment.

I think the problem with "retention" (holding back) is that it's still reliant on the idea that every child of the same age should learn a prescribed set of things in a prescribed amount of time, concurrent with their peers. It is the reliance on the k-12 system. If you want to see retention not equal higher drop out rates remove the social bias that keeping all 9-10 year olds in the same class creates. What if we said/did something like every child will start at the same place when they come to school, regardless of what that age is, and they will advance in each subject according to their aptitude. At a given point, if a student no longer wishes to pursue a given subject, they may stop. Additional subjects may be taken on as a student shows interest and ability. Age then has nothing to do with grade, nor do absences. Students who are more mechanically inclined are not made to feel stupid because they are not mathematically inclined, and students who excell in language no longer feel superior to their musically gifted friends. Each students gifts are encouraged, while the areas in which they struggle are de-emphasized. Suddenly you create more social equality and unity, and parents can schedule a vacation whenever they like. Kahn academy is being used at some schools to accomplish this for certain subjects. The administrative worry is that is becomes more work for the teachers, but I think done properly it would not. Schedule breaks, recess, lunch according to age, not class work. This is my utopia in education. I suspect it would reduce dropout rates as well, as each student is allowed to foster their innate potential and interests.

 

[mommajo143]

I think the problem with "retention" (holding back) is that it's still reliant on the idea that every child of the same age should learn a prescribed set of things in a prescribed amount of time, concurrent with their peers. It is the reliance on the k-12 system. If you want to see retention not equal higher drop out rates remove the social bias that keeping all 9-10 year olds in the same class creates. What if we said/did something like every child will start at the same place when they come to school, regardless of what that age is, and they will advance in each subject according to their aptitude. At a given point, if a student no longer wishes to pursue a given subject, they may stop. Additional subjects may be taken on as a student shows interest and ability. Age then has nothing to do with grade, nor do absences. Students who are more mechanically inclined are not made to feel stupid because they are not mathematically inclined, and students who excell in language no longer feel superior to their musically gifted friends. Each students gifts are encouraged, while the areas in which they struggle are de-emphasized. Suddenly you create more social equality and unity, and parents can schedule a vacation whenever they like. Kahn academy is being used at some schools to accomplish this for certain subjects. The administrative worry is that is becomes more work for the teachers, but I think done properly it would not. Schedule breaks, recess, lunch according to age, not class work. This is my utopia in education. I suspect it would reduce dropout rates as well, as each student is allowed to foster their innate potential and interests.

I like this idea but do think there should be a floor in a sense - basic foundational levels everyone needs to strive to achieve ... Some children hate learning to read, and I certainly didn't start out loving math. But with time & practice I was able to grasp & then excel... Every child should leave school with a set of basic skills needed in everyday life - reading, 'riting and 'rithmatic

... By the way your post reminded me of a recent op Ed about the gifted students in this country who are not being given opportunity - a cause close to my heart since DS8 tested 5 grade levels ahead - but it took 6 months to get the school to do the testing and tons of hoops & dropped balls on their part ... We didn't get scores as promised back in May, just received them & we we STILL WAITING for a IEP to be set up. We requested testing & AP / GT placement last year (2014 Christmas) mind you, after being discouraged for the full year prior because they didn't really offer anything for the GT kids except enrichment activities... DURING ART & PE (yep, they pull kids during these times to do enrichment activities!). Now we are being told by other families ahead of us in school they will only offer DS math no matter what his scores were because that's all they offer. Period. It's ludicrous - and you can be sure we are pulling our son out for a week at WDW because heck, who cares at this point, right?!

 

[texas disney mom]

I like this idea but do think there should be a floor in a sense - basic foundational levels everyone needs to strive to achieve ... Some children hate learning to read, and I certainly didn't start out loving math. But with time & practice I was able to grasp & then excel... Every child should leave school with a set of basic skills needed in everyday life - reading, 'riting and 'rithmatic

... By the way your post reminded me of a recent op Ed about the gifted students in this country who are not being given opportunity - a cause close to my heart since DS8 tested 5 grade levels ahead - but it took 6 months to get the school to do the testing and tons of hoops & dropped balls on their part ... We didn't get scores as promised back in May, just received them & we we STILL WAITING for a IEP to be set up. We requested testing & AP / GT placement last year (2014 Christmas) mind you, after being discouraged for the full year prior because they didn't really offer anything for the GT kids except enrichment activities... DURING ART & PE (yep, they pull kids during these times to do enrichment activities!). Now we are being told by other families ahead of us in school they will only offer DS math no matter what his scores were because that's all they offer. Period. It's ludicrous - and you can be sure we are pulling our son out for a week at WDW because heck, who cares at this point, right?!

I agree that there is very little in the way of gt education. And that if people on here think it is difficult to make up a week or even two of work from schools they're taking it all too seriously. It seems like 1/5 of the time our teachers are taking "personal days" anyway. Not that I think that's wrong-- just say in' kids deserve flexibility too. The tone the school takes is so legalistic, like they are dealing with criminals not kids. It's not that way in private schools. They are quite flexible with students taking vacations. I guess it is more obvious in private schools that students are customers. In public schools the tone the district takes is one of entitlement.

 

[mommajo143]

I agree that there is very little in the way of gt education. And that if people on here think it is difficult to make up a week or even two of work from schools they're taking it all too seriously. It seems like 1/5 of the time our teachers are taking "personal days" anyway. Not that I think that's wrong-- just say in' kids deserve flexibility too. The tone the school takes is so legalistic, like they are dealing with criminals not kids. It's not that way in private schools. They are quite flexible with students taking vacations. I guess it is more obvious in private schools that students are customers. In public schools the tone the district takes is one of entitlement.

i agree. I joked last year to a teacher friend about DS getting approx 3 weeks of actual education in an entire school year, between teacher in services days, holidays, the fact they tested on Wednesday & Thursday (apparently the last day of the week is called "fun Friday because this is when teachers grade test & students do other things - not lessons), 5 weeks dedicated to standardized testing during the year (and of course the week prior to the tests dedicated to test prep), plus the weeks scattered across the school calendar when attendance is not taken & very clearly discouraged by teachers such as the week school starts the week before all holidays, the last 3-4 weeks after standardized testing, the days before the state championship football games, etc etc etc...the joke was not well received - probably hit too close to home.

 

[bethy]

I like this idea but do think there should be a floor in a sense - basic foundational levels everyone needs to strive to achieve ... Some children hate learning to read, and I certainly didn't start out loving math. But with time & practice I was able to grasp & then excel... Every child should leave school with a set of basic skills needed in everyday life - reading, 'riting and 'rithmatic

... By the way your post reminded me of a recent op Ed about the gifted students in this country who are not being given opportunity - a cause close to my heart since DS8 tested 5 grade levels ahead - but it took 6 months to get the school to do the testing and tons of hoops & dropped balls on their part ... We didn't get scores as promised back in May, just received them & we we STILL WAITING for a IEP to be set up. We requested testing & AP / GT placement last year (2014 Christmas) mind you, after being discouraged for the full year prior because they didn't really offer anything for the GT kids except enrichment activities... DURING ART & PE (yep, they pull kids during these times to do enrichment activities!). Now we are being told by other families ahead of us in school they will only offer DS math no matter what his scores were because that's all they offer. Period. It's ludicrous - and you can be sure we are pulling our son out for a week at WDW because heck, who cares at this point, right?!

Despite my child's "right" to an appropriate education provided by the state I finally just had to pull her out. She was wasting away in the classroom while we spent years advocating and going through, up, over and round the various hoops.