Possible Additions/Changes to WDW Transportation

[manning]

A centralized HUb and light rail would solve their problems...but they don't "do" projects that accomplish great things any more...

AMEN

A light flexible rail is not that difficult.

Flexibility

The number of cars on a train can be adjusted upon demand. Not so on a monorail. You have 8 cars you have 8 cars.
A unit gets stuck it would be easier and faster to offload the people as it would be ground level.
You can have several main lines with switching to different destinations. For example you can have a main line running from MK to Disney Springs with switch offs (spurs) to EPCOT, OKW, Saratoga Springs. Same with a main line to Animal Kingdom Railroads control switching remotely all the time from a central location, so can Disney.


Cost

Buses are costly to fuel and maintain. Also one person per unit light rail vs one person per bus.
The big cost in a light rail is building the right of way. Part of the cost would be purchasing the right of way, however Disney already owns it. After that it is much cheaper to operate.
Monorail is much more expensive than light rail to build.

Electric motors are much simpler than diesel engines. The number of things that can go wrong is much smaller. Generally they are more reliable

Equipment replacement

With the monorail you have to find somewhere to replace the units thus replacement cost would be very high. With light rail there are many more sources. Replacement cost would be far less (the old supply and demand.) There are many light rail systems out there. The cars are already being built. You would be buying from inventory.


It takes is a little magic and and a lot of vision. If I thought it would help I would send the definition of vision to corporate.

 

[michelepa]

I'm sure Disney is going crazy with all the money guests are giving to Uber. Certainly Disney is planning a way to capture that revenue. IMO there will never be a variety of new options offered by Disney to get to and from airport or any new trans service since thats not cost effective but Disney knows Uber must be stopped with regards to moving guests around the Disney property especially hotel to hotel. They are trying now to figure out how best to offer their guests these services. I'm sure once they start these services they will again make it difficult for unsponsored transport services to get in and around their property.

I think one item they were trying to put in place prior to transport expansion setvices was a way to identify hotel guests easily(magic band) and set up some system around the pools to ensure that guests werent using the pools in hotels they aren't registered. I didnt see anything set up last year at WL but others have noted magic band checks at most of the deluxe hotels have already started.

 

[Shanti]

For some people who have to drive to/from/for work, the fact that they don't need to spend any part of their vacation behind the wheel of a car is a huge positive.

This. A hundred times.

 

[writerguyfl]

A centralized HUb and light rail would solve their problems...but they don't "do" projects that accomplish great things any more...

I actually disagree with the light rail concept. (Although, I admit your opinion regarding lack of vision is sadly true.)

The problem with a comprehensive light rail system at WDW is that there are too many disparate points to connect. Remember, some resorts have multiple bus stops because they are simply too big to make guests walk to a central location. Since it's not feasible to run light rail lines through places like Disney's Saratoga Springs or Coronado Springs resorts, that means you'd have to force guests to change modes of transportation.

Example to get from Disney's Coronado Springs resort to Magic Kingdom:

• Ride an internal bus from the area near your room to the resort light rail station.
• Ride a light rail train from the resort to the Central Hub.
• Switch to a different light rail train from the Central Hub to Magic Kingdom.

How is that better than simply getting on one bus that might make a few short stops and riding it all the way to Magic Kingdom?

For me, a good analogy is the way airlines operate. Most legacy carriers (American, Delta, United) use a system that requires most passengers to change planes at a central hub. Smaller carriers sometimes use a point-to-point system the emphasizes nonstop flights. If the price, quality, and start times are equal, I can't imagine any traveler opting for a longer connecting itinerary if a nonstop is available.

 

[writerguyfl]

Buses are costly to fuel and maintain. Also one person per unit light rail vs one person per bus.
The big cost in a light rail is building the right of way. Part of the cost would be purchasing the right of way, however Disney already owns it. After that it is much cheaper to operate.
Monorail is much more expensive than light rail to build.

Operating cost can be measured by different metrics. According to the 2015 Fact Book from the American Public Transportation Association, Cost per Revenue Mile Among Modes are:

• All Bus Modes: $9.84
• Heavy Rail: $12.49
• Light Rail and Streetcar: $16.53

Source [Figure 10, page 25]: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf (Note: Links to PDF File.)

Regardless of those figures, there's another issue at play. Namely, it's hard to apply existing data of public transportation systems to Walt Disney World because that data usually involves revenue. Since Disney is a private company that doesn't disclose how much they spend to provide the "free" transportation they offer, that makes comparisons much tougher.

Additionally, most bus systems in the United States suffer from low ridership. That certainly isn't the case at WDW. As such, I'd bet that any metric based on total cost per passenger mile would be very different at WDW when compared to traditional public transportation. That's particularly true when you consider that governmental agencies aren't models of efficiency.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I actually disagree with the light rail concept. (Although, I admit your opinion regarding lack of vision is sadly true.)

The problem with a comprehensive light rail system at WDW is that there are too many disparate points to connect. Remember, some resorts have multiple bus stops because they are simply too big to make guests walk to a central location. Since it's not feasible to run light rail lines through places like Disney's Saratoga Springs or Coronado Springs resorts, that means you'd have to force guests to change modes of transportation.

Example to get from Disney's Coronado Springs resort to Magic Kingdom:

• Ride an internal bus from the area near your room to the resort light rail station.
• Ride a light rail train from the resort to the Central Hub.
• Switch to a different light rail train from the Central Hub to Magic Kingdom.

How is that better than simply getting on one bus that might make a few short stops and riding it all the way to Magic Kingdom?

For me, a good analogy is the way airlines operate. Most legacy carriers (American, Delta, United) use a system that requires most passengers to change planes at a central hub. Smaller carriers sometimes use a point-to-point system the emphasizes nonstop flights. If the price, quality, and start times are equal, I can't imagine any traveler opting for a longer connecting itinerary if a nonstop is available.

I don't disagree with anything you say...I just think there is an intrinsic value to an overall system/vision.

At current measure...we are looking at a 100% bus WDW...and a lot sooner than people think. That's just depressing.

And no...you can't have bus stop service...it would have to be fixed points.

 

[ParrotBill]

This feels like another of the ideas to capture more revenue from guests willing to pay more for premium services. Magicband convenience, door to door service for those who want it and are willing to pay.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

This feels like another of the ideas to capture more revenue from guests willing to pay more for premium services. Magicband convenience, door to door service for those who want it and are willing to pay.

...yep...except nothing they sell as "premium" is anywhere close to premium.

Like "club level"

 

[Proud Cheapskate]

This. A hundred times.

I sit in bumper to bumper traffic for about 2.5 hours a day and I'd still rather drive than wait forever for a bus any time. I don't want to make this a drive vs Disney transportation thread but there are viable alternatives.

 

[Andrew015]

Operating cost can be measured by different metrics. According to the 2015 Fact Book from the American Public Transportation Association, Cost per Revenue Mile Among Modes are:

• All Bus Modes: $9.84
• Heavy Rail: $12.49
• Light Rail and Streetcar: $16.53

Source [Figure 10, page 25]: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf (Note: Links to PDF File.)

Regardless of those figures, there's another issue at play. Namely, it's hard to apply existing data of public transportation systems to Walt Disney World because that data usually involves revenue. Since Disney is a private company that doesn't disclose how much they spend to provide the "free" transportation they offer, that makes comparisons much tougher.

Additionally, most bus systems in the United States suffer from low ridership. That certainly isn't the case at WDW. As such, I'd bet that any metric based on total cost per passenger mile would be very different at WDW when compared to traditional public transportation. That's particularly true when you consider that governmental agencies aren't models of efficiency.

IMHO, this response sums up the future of WDW transportation in a depressing nutshell. There is simply not an alternative mean of transportation that can provide a strong enough ROI to justify the initial capital expense required as compared to the current model.

 

[Mickeycrocs]

Does anyone else think it would just be easier to rent a car? Say they charged I dunno 10$ a ride and you get 10 rides that would pretty much equal out to a car rental.

 

[::danielle::]

I'm sure Disney is going crazy with all the money guests are giving to Uber. Certainly Disney is planning a way to capture that revenue. IMO there will never be a variety of new options offered by Disney to get to and from airport or any new trans service since thats not cost effective but Disney knows Uber must be stopped with regards to moving guests around the Disney property especially hotel to hotel. They are trying now to figure out how best to offer their guests these services. I'm sure once they start these services they will again make it difficult for unsponsored transport services to get in and around their property.

I completely agree. Disney sees a business making money off of their business. They don't want to miss out on the opportunity to make the money themselves.

They can do this and still offer free transportation for the masses. It's the same mindset as offering upgraded opportunities for standard in-park experiences (fireworks, etc).

All visitors are equal at Disney but some visitors are more equal than others.

 

[Andrew015]

Does anyone else think it would just be easier to rent a car? Say they charged I dunno 10$ a ride and you get 10 rides that would pretty much equal out to a car rental.

I suspect that the majority of people that travel that frequently using "non-provided" transportation are already renting cars.

 

[Andrew015]

All visitors are equal at Disney but some visitors are more equal than others.

"He who holds a black American Express card (i.e. unlimited) wins."

 

[glvsav37]

I wonder if it's actually Disney asking, or Disney asking for Mears. Bc isnt all the bus transportation at WDW owned by Mears (Including DME)? I remember having a conversation with a Taxi driver a few years ago and he told me that. Mears apparently has a huge monopoly in Florida public transportation and can't be very happy with the rise of Uber.

 

[rteetz]

I wonder if it's actually Disney asking, or Disney asking for Mears. Bc isnt all the bus transportation at WDW owned by Mears (Including DME)? I remember having a conversation with a Taxi driver a few years ago and he told me that. Mears apparently has a huge monopoly in Florida public transportation and can't be very happy with the rise of Uber.

Mears only owns and operates Disney's Magical Express. The resort transportation from the parks is run by Disney.

 

[Andrew015]

Perhaps minor, but DME is not "owned" by Mears. Disney simply subcontracts the operation out to Mears, but owns/controls the program. If Disney could save a buck doing it themselves, they would. As seen on the hotel side of things (push to DVC, 3rd party operators, etc.), reducing labor & overhead has and will continue to be a focus.

 

[rteetz]

Perhaps minor, but DME is not "owned" by Mears. Disney simply subcontracts the operation out to Mears, but owns/controls the program. If Disney could save a buck doing it themselves, they would. As seen on the hotel side of things (push to DVC, 3rd party operators, etc.), reducing labor & overhead has and will continue to be a focus.

Correct I meant it as Mears owns the buses.

 

[writerguyfl]

I don't disagree with anything you say...I just think there is an intrinsic value to an overall system/vision.

At current measure...we are looking at a 100% bus WDW...and a lot sooner than people think. That's just depressing.

I understand where you're coming from. But, at this point, I think Andrew015 is right when he wrote that there "is simply not an alternative mean of transportation that can provide a strong enough ROI to justify the initial capital expense required". WDW is simply following in the footsteps of virtually every major metropolitan area in the US. Namely, once it's realized that alternatives to roads are needed, it's always too late because existing development doesn't support the requirements of fixed rail systems.

Another major deterrent to the development of any upgraded WDW transportation system is that lots of people don't consider infrastructure to be a notable investment. I've read many negative comments here stating that Disney hasn't been spending money on WDW. But, that's not true. They've spent a lot money on parking garages at Disney Springs, fixing Buena Vista Drive, adding ramps from I-4, and improving Epcot Center Drive.

Yet, the biggest infrastructure expenditure has been MyMagic+. Many folks incorrectly believe that program was just about FastPass+ and tracking guest spending. But, the basis of the program was to unify the many different computer systems. I worked at the Disney Reservations Center from 2001 to 2005. When I started, there were many independent systems, each with their own guest database. Dining, Tickets, Cirque du Soleil, Tours, Rooms Reservations, Package Reservations, and Hotel Property Management all were independent. Because Disney spent tons of money to combine those systems, guests can now see everything in one place using My Disney Experience.

Anyway, that's just a long-winded way of saying that spending a massive amount of money on transportation upgrades won't be appreciated by most guests. In my opinion, Disney didn't have a choice with the Disney Springs road work or combining the computer systems into a single Customer Relationship Management (CRM) system. They do have a choice with regard to transportation. I agree that buses are mostly depressing. But, they're "good enough" and I think most guests would want money spent in the parks and not on light rail.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yet, the biggest infrastructure expenditure has been MyMagic+. Many folks incorrectly believe that program was just about FastPass+ and tracking guest spending. But, the basis of the program was to unify the many different computer systems. I worked at the Disney Reservations Center from 2001 to 2005. When I started, there were many independent systems, each with their own guest database. Dining, Tickets, Cirque du Soleil, Tours, Rooms Reservations, Package Reservations, and Hotel Property Management all were independent. Because Disney spent tons of money to combine those systems, guests can now see everything in one place using My Disney Experience.

Lol...I was a FD OPS and a GSM for a couple of years during that period...

...I feel like we used to have intimate conversations with each other at one time or another...