Pop Century

[YoHo]

Oh, And congrats to thedscoop. (talk about addiction, it took me a minute to actually read what you were saying there. )

So how is thebabyscoop?

 

[CapHook]

Originally posted by JeffJewell

Personally, I find it difficult to even describe the Values as being "themed," rather, it seems to me they are "decorated," which I consider a vastly inferior concept. There's a pizza place near here with Disney characters painted all over it (in flagrant disregard for most or all of our copyright laws, I'm quite certain) that could be described as being "themed" even better than ASM, if not on nearly as grand a scale.
Jeff

I would not disagree with this. If you want to say that the AS are not themed so be it. I am very happy that the AS exist because it means my family can stay on site.

I have only been once so I was pretty happy to be there. It take us 16 hours to drive there so I kind of like feeling like I am at WDW instead of "someplace else". I understand that great themeing makes for a great stay at the other resorts and someday I would like to experience that. I do not think this is your intention but you make it sort of sound like people who pick to stay at the AS are 1. too poor to really go or 2. idiots.

My wife and I alway say that we are not going to stay in the room. We just want a bed. I know we could do that off site but the EE and Transportation make AS's too good to pass up.

Just my .02

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop says:

But, I do want to specifically point out the GC's points have been exceptionally agreeable to me, especially this one:

And I failed to mention that the All Stars also provide folks who couldn't otherwise afford to stay on-site that opportunity. No doubt, many hundreds of thousands of families are thankful for that.

Ok! Fair enough. I don't think anyone can successfully argue against the concept (although If I were head mouse, I wouldn't have even considered it). So we can concede the point. But the question here is: Did they do it right?

Now the argument boils down to taste. Some say a huge Buzz icon is a wonderful image. Kids love them. Great "Disney" ties. Yada-yada-yada!

But do they live up to the "Disney" standard? Here's where I completely disagree. I contend that they do not! In fact, I further contend that they deliberately dumbed down the theme in order to justify and quantify the price difference between the three venues.

KaraJade sums it up pretty nicely:

IMHO, the Allstar resorts can be as tacky as they want to be. If it means I can get that great rate and save a TON of money during the times when my budget is pretty tight, yet STILL stay onsite at Disney, I'm happy.

You see, they've got her, and potential millions more like her, and they know it!! They could put out cardboard boxes and they'd still have people lining up for the "Disney" experience. Except it really isn't a "Disney" experience, is it?

I can totally understand her concept though. And I empathize. I was quickly falling into this category concerning WDW visits, even though my income was rising much faster than inflation. But each year Disney was getting more and more out of my reach. I started out, comfortably, in the Poly. As the Ei$ner years went by the Poly was no longer affordable to me. A quick change to the Caribbean and Port Orleans. Still some pretty nice theme, but not quite so much care regarding some of the details. And the outdoor-access-only, was quite a change. But still not too bad at all! Very nice. At the time the main drawback was NOT being on the monorail run.

That lasted a couple years, but even they began to get a little pricey. Just at about the time that the cost was almost out of reach for these resorts, (wouldn't you know it!) they built the All Stars!! I was pretty fed up by this time and seriously reviewed my options. This is one of the major reasons I bought into the DVC concept.

Now if you think about it, just what can justify the cost difference between the three classes of resorts? Do you really mean to tell me that, other than a slightly increased capital investment (for a bit better theming) it costs any more to maintain? The rooms still have to be cleaned. The size of the staff is the same. What is the difference? I'm not talking about the difference between the Floridian and the All Stars. I'm talking about the difference between Port Orleans and the All Stars. What are the differences that can possibly account for the price difference? I don't get it. Unless, of course, they chose to minimize the theme in order to make it clearly apparent that the All Stars was… well… how to put it… CHEAPER!!!

Now, I'll admit that it's hard for me to verbalize this elusive concept. And it may well be that the words will become clearer throughout the discussions. I do know that I've had this 'feeling' for years, but I've never really had to translate these 'feelings' into logic, concrete concepts that can be easily communicated.

Any thoughts??


PS: SCOOP: Boy - Girl or Other? And congratulations!!!! (But I hear they're a lot of trouble for the first… for the first… for the first… 21 years or so!!!

 

[DC7800]

I have to say I like the All-Star Resorts well enough. It's hardly my favorite Disney resort - the Contemporary takes that honor - but All-Star or Pop Century are so far above the typical "road-side" motel (off-property) there is simply no comparison. Given the choice of Days Inn or All-Star Music for the same money, it's quite obvious which is the more magical experience (any Disney property would win this, simply because its inside Disney World). Sure, the Polynesian is wonderful, but you can spend a week at All-Stars for two days at the Poly, and if you only get to go once a year - better to enjoy a week of theme park magic than 48 hours of ultra-luxury. Besides, you can visit any other resort for anything except sleeping there, which gets back to someone's previous argument of exactly how many waking hours you spend in that room anyway.

Actually, the value resorts have a few advantages over the moderates (theming isn't one of them). I wouldnt exactly call either "compact", but even the worst All-Star rooms are more convenient than some Coronado rooms (in a different time zone from the restaurants and lobby). Port Orleans (French Quarter) was great, but it's now a value-level service resort at moderate prices. Since we visit other resorts for dining and other activities, I can't see much advantage of moderate over value.

The difference in theming (and price) between a deluxe and value resort is really a matter of supply and demand. Disney can fill another 6,000 value-priced rooms by drawing on guests who otherwise stay off-site. They might not fill that many (well themed) deluxe rooms, and there has to be a difference between value and deluxe resorts other than price, or else deluxe properties would sit empty! Lets say Disney built two resorts priced $99: one with All-Star service level but theming more elaborate than the Poly, the other with no theming at all but with a level of guest services even greater than Grand Floridian. For many, this would effectively remove the primary reasons to stay at Disney's nicest resorts. Sure, the Polynesian would still be convenient, and the All-Stars would stay full of formerly off-site guests, but how many people (other than many of us) would pay $300 when they can get a similar room for $99?

 

[YoHo]

According to Disneyworld.com, the Value resorts have these amenities.

Food Courts
Snack Bars
Lounge/Bars
pools
playground




Moderates have this set
Food Courts
Snack Bars
Lounge/Bars
pools
playground
bell services
Table-dining
Whirlpool
watersports

Home away from home has this set
Food Courts
Snack Bars
Lounge/Bars
pools
playground
bell services
Table-dining
Whirlpool
watersports
Beach
Fine Dining
Room Service/Full Service
Character Breakfest
Power boat rental
Fishing
Valet Parking
Kids Programs
Tennis Courts
Walking/Jogging paths
Fitness Center/Spa
Kitchens or Kitchenettes

Deluxes have this set
Food Courts
Snack Bars
Lounge/Bars
pools
playground
bell services
Table-dining
Whirlpool
watersports
Beach
Fine Dining
Room Service/Full Service
Character Breakfest
Power boat rental
Fishing
Valet Parking
Kids Programs
Tennis Courts
Walking/Jogging paths
Fitness Center/Spa
Concierge
Monorail access
Closest to parks
Larger rooms
Suites



I would say that diferentiates things well.

I will continue to say that I would have preferred no themeing at all.

 

[Eeyore2U]

Theming or decorating would have been ok as long as it wasn't disgusting, putrid, eyesoreish. I hope I got my point across. It was my point at the beginning!

 

[YoHo]

43% of those in my poll would stay at a different Disney resort if money was no object.

16% prefer the All Stars to other Disney resorts including the themeing and would stay there if prices went up.

Nearly 20% say they would never ever stay at the All Stars.

Draw any conclusions you would like.

 

[larworth]

I assume we all agree that Disney needs to offer a variety of different price points to fit differing customer needs. The values surely allow more people to stay on-site, and if this enhances their overall vacation experience, it sure seems like a good thing from both a business and a guest perspective.

If we are not talking matters of taste than we are back to that elusive question of minimum standards across the resort. We sure don’t want Disney to do anything that devalues the brand. Sounds similar to the Downtown Disney debate of a month ago. I think we were all over the map on whether the resorts as a whole should be treated the same as the parks.

Let’s go ahead and use the A-E ticket analogy. What I hear some people arguing is that the values been not been plussed enough to qualify as a Disney A ticket hotel. The effort here is below the effort Disney makes to take a commodity flat ride and turn it into a Disney A ticket attraction. I’m not qualified to render a judgment myself as I have not stayed at these properties, but it might be another way to look at things.

 

[CapHook]

Originally posted by YoHo
43% of those in my poll would stay at a different Disney resort if money was no object.

16% prefer the All Stars to other Disney resorts including the themeing and would stay there if prices went up.

Nearly 20% say they would never ever stay at the All Stars.

Draw any conclusions you would like.

The poll has some flaws.

I was one of the 43%. There is a difference between would you ever stay at a different resort if money was no object and would you stay at a different resort on your next trip. Sure someday I hope to stay at another resort just to see what it is like. If money were no object I would always stay at the most expensive place wether it was WDW , Las Vegas or New York City.

I can tell you this, Pop Century may be ugly, but if I can stay there for $49 per night I don't care. If you stayed there, many of you would feel ripped off. Don't stay there, but don't try to convince the rest of us that the Value Resorts are a rip off. They are not.

 

[JeffJewell]

Since we visit other resorts for dining and other activities, I can't see much advantage of moderate over value.

...I completely agree with this. Because of the lack of alternative transport/direct access to parks and lack of a full range of dining options, I don't feel any non-Deluxe (and the AKL doesn't even count... you still have to take a bus everywhere, even AK, counter-intuitively enough) offers the "step into Walt Disney World, leave the normal world behind" atmosphere that was actually the main goal of buying all those orange groves and swamps in the first place.

Everyone makes a big deal about Walt once scribbling "motels" on an early plan for WDW that was about three hours past the cocktail-napkin stage, and I can certainly understand that he realized a need for different price levels in his resorts.

I do not think that means there was the intent to throw away the "World" aspect of Disney World just to compete with a Motel 6 price point.

Jeff

 

[JeffJewell]

don't try to convince the rest of us that the Value Resorts are a rip off. They are not.

...did anyone sugget the Values were a "rip-off?"

If you felt that way from anything I've said, let me apologize for the miscommunication. I never intended to imply the Values were a "rip-off."

At the Values, you're paying for a cheap hotel room, and that's precisely what you're getting: a cheap hotel room.

My problem is not that the Values are a rip-off, I just don't think "cheap hotel room" is a product that fits well within Disney's tradition of quality.

Jeff

 

[CapHook]

Well, I disagree. I am just thinking of where this is going. These cheap motel rooms dont fit into the Disney you want. Therefore my family does not fit into the Disney you want.

Eisner must want them because he is not tearing them down and is in fact building more.

 

[YoHo]

It was never my intention to suggest that the value resorts are a ripoff in any way, only that they were an offense to good taste. An opinion that is realistically mine and mine alone.

Jeff, Now we're getting back into a different question. A question I try to avoid. I think its fairly obvious that if your going to have such a large number of rooms, some of them simply can't be near the parks. (its a different question whether they should have so many rooms)

I agree there was no intent to throw away th "World" but I wonder if better transportation would improve things?

 

[YoHo]

Lets try to stop this before it spreads. I happen to remember the last time the conversation went down this path and it wasn't pretty.
I think I'm safe in concluding that those of us here that don't particularly like the All-stars would just as soon tha the Deluxes were cheaper. That even the most financially challenged person could afford to stay at the poly, because the Poly should be priced that low. I don't particularly want to walk that path. I just think the Allstars are ugly, I am perfectly fine with their existance.



Lets just keep thing civil. Nobody is trying to exclude anyone.

 

[JeffJewell]

These cheap motel rooms dont fit into the Disney you want

...they don't fit into the Disney that, in the past, built a reputation and fan base worldwide on the basis of over-the-top theming and quality, the Disney with a history of doing things the best they possibly could do them. What I want or don't want has nothing to do with this conversation.

Eisner must want them because he is not tearing them down and is in fact building more.

Yes, they fit quite well into his business plan that treats entertainment is a commodity, not an art form. The same business plan that has led to the less-than-stellar business results of Animal Kingdom and Disney's California Adventure.

Disney is struggling right now, and was struggling even before 9-11 changed the face of travel in this country. It is my position that the struggles are a predictable result of abandoning tenets that were once central to the company and every product it offered, the tenets that made the company what it was.

Therefore my family does not fit into the Disney you want.

I have no idea why you think my evaluation of a business decision equates to a personal desire to exclude you from anything. I said this to another poster earlier in the thread, and it applies here, too:

For good or ill, the All Stars ain't going anywhere, so it's just as well that someone appreciates them for what they are. Actually, if I was a couple hours drive away, I'm relatively certain that I'd be in a low-priced hotel several week-ends a year, too. If the money is the biggest question, the All Stars are certainly a valid answer. So go, have a good time, and enjoy the All Stars all you want

We can discuss this impersonally on a business level and agree to disagree, if it comes to that, or you can continue to take personal offense at something that has nothing to do with anyone personally. Up to you, really.

Jeff

 

[DVC95-BW]

At least the Animal Kingdom Lodge is fantastic so this oops on Disney's part isn't a sign of slipping quality.

(Haven't seen Pop Century - but the pictures on the 'net do look dreadful)

 

[CapHook]

If you want to continue to discuss this on a "business" level go ahead. I will quit reading and posting to the thread. You can theorize all you want to and I will not bother you any more.

 

[hopemax]

Question for everyone:

You have 2 choices for hotels:

1. The Pop Century or the All-stars

2. A hotel that the rooms are located in buildings that look like a Comfort Inn, Holiday Inn Express, etc. The hotel is located on Disney property, has Disney transportation, early entry, has a Disney name, staffed by Disney employees, has some Disney character art in the lobby, foodcourt and minor decorations in room (no more elaborate than at the All-stars), a pool that looks similar to the All-stars (basic pool w/ characters in the middle), costs the same as #1.
Basically all things being equal but no giant icons, and a different color pallette.

Which would still choose #1?

 

[YoHo]

I would stay in 2 any day of the week and twice on sunday.

 

[DVC95-BW]

Comment on pricing - Disney should charge a price the optimizes asset utilization - if the Polynesian is full at current pricing, there is no reason to drop the price.

The entry level hotels are there to leverage Disney's significant land holdings and capture another price point.

Expect lots of deals and specials as Disney drops prices in package deals to increase the occupancy rate. And expect those rates to climb back up when this crisis slowly passes and the economy slowly improves.

I don't want Disney to give away their product - nor do I want the price to exceed the value.

As a profit seeking mechanism the Walt Disney Corporation will continually optimize price, value and occupancy rate in their on property hotels.

Anecdote: I've had the good fortune to visit every Disney park globally (DisneySea coming up in November hopefully). I stayed in Sante Fe hotel at Disneyland Paris and had numerous complaints (lousy hotel) and wrote to Eisner. I received a very specific response from the head of Disneyland Paris that addressed each point - including a policy change to include breakfast with the room (common in Europe).

The best response to any disatisfaction with Disney is to write specific, well written letters to the appropriate executive.

I expect that Disney quality will slip over the next 12 months due to the economic downturn. On the other hand, an ex-Disney Imagineering friend said that Disney is also considering significant plussing and new attraction investments while the parks are not as full.