Orlando Sentinel story about "inappropriate fondling" on the Dream

Discussion in 'Disney Cruise Line Forum' started by dskib, May 20, 2013.

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  1. manhattanman

    manhattanman Mouseketeer

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    Why would HLS have his name if his supposed confession occured in the bahamas and to the best of my knowledge he was never even questioned by US authorities ? my concern is that from the US perspective, there is no black mark associated with his name.
     
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  3. Zeppelin

    Zeppelin DIS Veteran

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    its not just the US- the greater issue here is DCL's poor response could also put young girls in India (or other countries if he works elsewhere) in danger if this is not properly investigated, prosecuted, etc....

    got to tell you I am sick to my stomach over this....
     
  4. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    I would believe now at least, he would be considered a *person of interest*(???), wanted for questioning by police in a possible felony investigation. His name would likely be on the list of people to be stopped when entering the country.

    AKK
     
  5. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    Sadly as the recent new reports have shown, India doesn't seem to interested in rapes etc., against woman!

    AKK
     
  6. rhorsley

    rhorsley Mouseketeer

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    Firstly, the grandmother only spoke Portuguese. I believe she thought she was doing the best thing she could by going to guest services (I don't know how to call police in other countries, do you?)

    Now, since so many people here are coming up with "maybe this is what happened" scenarios, I can't help but think that the perceived magnitude of the crime is affecting some. Now I think this was much worse than it looked. Yes, physically she came away fine, but psychological damage is hard to convey via video.

    So I ask you all this: If the grandmother and daughter had reported to GS that she had just been forcibly raped, and the CM who did it took off on foot. So we have an 11 year-old girl reporting she was raped, her attacker is still on the ship somewhere and he could be raping others, on a boat full of children. What do you think GS & Disney security should have done.

    In this scenario they are still in PC and there is similar video evidence out there to corroborate.
     
  7. manhattanman

    manhattanman Mouseketeer

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    not to reduce the severity of the crime, but I dont think it is likely that he would be extradited to the us even if he were convicted in the us or in the bahamas.

    Again my lack of understanding is likely based on a profound ignorance of the ways in which maritime law intersects with " land" law. but from the current descriptions one of two things seems to have occured

    1) he confessed in the bahamas and then was deported from there
    2) he confessed in the bahamas, the bahamas could not ( or chose not to)
    prosecute because the alleged crime ocurred in Fla, but disney fired him
    anyways and held up their contractual obligation to get him back to india

    in the former he might be prevented from re-entering the bahamas but irrespective if it was #1 or #2 I dont see how he could be prevented from re-entering the US, if he so chose. in either event, if he's an indian national and they were not going to hold him in the bahamas, he has every right to return to india.


    If however ( again IANAL) Disney facilitated his return to india in order to evade arrest or questioning by US authorities, my limited understanding is that this can be interpreted as obstruction of justice. I dont see how an employment contract ( which would be civil) supercedes criminal charges.
     
  8. TwinPrincessMermaids

    TwinPrincessMermaids DIS Veteran

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    This is strictly my opinion as of the story we have now (without knowing the exact particulars like when the Captain was notified- before or after sailing.)

    I believe that Disney probably didn't break any laws (or they would be in legal hot water even now). I certainly believe that they likely exploited a loophole that would allow them to be as quiet and concealing about the matter as possible. I do not trust big business, any big business, to morally or ethically do the right thing. It does seem like they hushed things and whisked the perpetrator away, and there may be a lot more instances of worse that they have done the same for, just that this one surfaced. I never expected anything differently.

    I do not condone the actions of many people, whether it be those I know, work with, etc. If I was going to expect every company to be perfectly ethical or else never earn my business, I could never shop at Walmart, fill my car up with BP, borrow my husband's iPad, or frankly pay taxes for that matter (as we know how ethical and moral politicians can be.) The truth is that we can't avoid disappointments from any big business (or any people). I also do not pick and choose who I punish as I choose to be consistent and I can't avoid all of them.

    I have no children thankfully, and in part for this reason, and so my security concerns are not the same as a parent. For me, this is no surprise. Will I continue to cruise and go to Disney? Yes. I still even have to be choosy with Disney content as well. (Not all of it is for me.)

    (As a side note: You cannot very easily see right away WHO it is in that particular video. I hope if someone ever accused me (or my husband, father etc anyone I know) of something so awful, that they would do their part first to find the right person and not grab anyone who resembled the guy 'from the back of his head'. (Or at least thats what I saw in the video.) I do believe a person has a right to be properly identified first, and that may not be quicker than the 12 minutes prior to sailing away.)
     
  9. brianvdb

    brianvdb Mouseketeer

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    First, let me say that I do not think that the family acted incorrectly in reporting this to GS/Security. It is only because of these types of incidents that I would now consider trying to contact the police on my own.

    It would be reassuring to hear that DCL:
    1) Immediately secured the suspect so that he was not a danger to other guests.
    2) Promptly contacted the appropriate law enforcement authority.
    3) Investigated the incident without delay.
    4) Either off-boarded the suspect into police custody prior to leaving PC, or detained him on-board until he could be questioned by the appropriate law enforcement agency.

    There are a couple of these items that are in doubt based on the news report.
     
  10. Zeppelin

    Zeppelin DIS Veteran

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    therein lies the debate- why did DCL leave port canaveral without letting local authorities on first to investigate the situation?

    my point is- if local authorities were allowed onto the Dream, take the guy into custody, then investigate the crime, there's a much better chance of this not happening in a lot of places...i go back to a point i made several pages ago- if there was an unruly passenger on board who got drunk and assaulted/punched a cast member, would DCL let the Bahamanian authorities take control of the situation? or would they call the Port Canaveral police?

    if this incident is true- and the video lends most to believe something unseemly if not horrible happened here, at present time the worst thing that has happened to this guy is he lost his job but got a free trip back to india....
     
  11. MillauFr

    MillauFr Buzz & Woody

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    Unfortunately that is the case in most parts of the world. Makes me feel lucky to live in the US.
     
  12. manhattanman

    manhattanman Mouseketeer

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    I guess they could claim that at the time they left they didnt yet have a good handle at what had transpired, and by the time they did they did what they were legally required to do ( turn him over to the authorities in the next port of call which happens to be the country the ship is registered in). In my non lawyer opinion, a lot really hinges whether he was deported then terminated, terminated then deported or simply allowed to leave the bahamas on his own volition and disney's dime.

    The case I was alluding to previously, I dont think that the airline could be found criminally liable for a suspect fleeing prosecution, and even if they were made aware of the fact that one of their passengers was fleeing a jurisdiction who wanted him for questioning, I'm not sure the airline is compelled to turn the plane around.

    And I want to be clear, although i am not fantastically comfortable with how DCL acted, I'm not sure if they did anything wrong, much less illegal. I further think that given the choice of subjecting the company to a charge of obstruction of justice vs letting whichever jurisdiction was deemed appropriate do whatever they wanted with the accused, they would serve that guy up on a silver platter. Disney certainly wants to protect its reputations and although I disagree with the notion of sweeping things under the rug to protect this reputation, i don't think Disney would chose to do something that would open themselves to a criminal investigation.

    I think that really only disney knows whether they were doing what was required of them legally or whether they were trying to sweep this under the rug to keep this hush hush and even then I think there is enough for plausible deniability.
     
  13. Rogillio

    Rogillio DIS Veteran

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    I had direct experience with DCL security too. I got into a fight with a drunk guy in the Med over seats he was saving. (He kicked me in the head and I pushed him down!). The security guy was a retired FBI agent. He knew the law! This guys was no rent-a-cop! He talked to both of us and discussed our 'options'. We could either or both press assault charges and we would both be taken off the ship at the next port or we could be taken to he brig or we could make amends. I offered to make amends but the other guy was still mad. He let us o our separate ways. I fully expected to be before a judge in the morning but I guess he sobered up over night.

    Point being, the security agents are not mall cops! This guy was a very wise senior FBI retiree and very capable.
     
  14. Zeppelin

    Zeppelin DIS Veteran

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    which would put Disney in an even worse PR position; they were alerted to a potentially serious criminal event happening on their ship but left before they had a good handle on the situation....

    true- but if the crime happened on the plane the airline could be criminally liable....i'm no lawyer either and don't know Florida/maritime law....

    did they do anything illegal?? i'm with you and don't know....

    as far as plausible deniablity and did anything wrong- based on the evidence at hand i disagree....
     
  15. billwald

    billwald Mouseketeer DIS Lifetime Sponsor

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    Reporter Tony Pipitone’s favorite quote:

    "Believe none of what you hear, half of what you see, and everything you report."
     
  16. Rogillio

    Rogillio DIS Veteran

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    That seems to be the case! I wonder if the report (with times doctored) came from a disgruntled employee? It always bothers me when all information comes from the same source. In this case from one reporter.
     
  17. justmestace

    justmestace <br><img src="http://www.wdwinfo.com/dis-sponsor/i

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    I AM glad to know that the security guys can break up a fight, and help keep people safe. Really, I mean that. But in my case, they told me that they had video footage of the accident that I had onboard, and that they knew which CM was responsible for it, and that when I got home and contacted the "on land security" department, that they would help me process a claim to my insurance company, and help negotiate any kind of refund. They also told me that there was an incident report, that would be mailed to me, but it never was. The "on land" (or whatever it's called) security person I talked to also said there was NO video tape.

    So all I'm saying is that if anything ever happens to me, one of my family members, or a friend, onboard a ship (any ship) I will never trust their word that they will "help me" and "take care of everything".
     
  18. Zeppelin

    Zeppelin DIS Veteran

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    out of curiosity- did you get the name of the "they" who told you that? also-did you follow up?? not trying to be a wise guy, rather learn from your experience....
     
  19. SapphireMind

    SapphireMind Mouseketeer

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    This is part of the topic that is difficult to think/talk about and upsets many people.

    She was fondled and kissed. Wrong? Absolutely. Illegal? Completely. Different from what could happen on a subway? Or in a middle school? Not really. Guarantee that most dudes who cop a feel on subways or whatever are not up for felony charges. It doesn't make them right or ok, but as the survivor of abuse said, sometimes the reaction to it can make an even bigger impact on the damage done.

    As a devil's advocate position: In the subway, middle school and possibly even this situation, the child could even be far more traumatized by adults acting like it is a big trauma. She would have had her vacation cancelled, because she would have been taken off the ship with the accused. Again, not saying what happened was right, but there are different levels of assault and sexual assault. The law would treat it differently.

    Call me cynical, but even if he was off the ship in the US, if the girl and g-ma didn't skip their vacation to stay and make the report, he would be sent back to India. If they did stay and make a report, most likely he would get a plea bargain and sent back to India after a few months in jail in the US.
     
  20. manhattanman

    manhattanman Mouseketeer

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    It might be that your beef is with nautical law, not disney. If the rules of the sea are that upon finding compelling evidence of illegality that the protocol is to detain the accused and turn him/her over to the cops at the next port of call, then they did what they were supposed to. That does not mean you have to like it, but it also might mean that disney is not at fault.

    This happened right before departure. it it had happened half way to nassau no one would say peep, what disney did everyone would support.
    What if it was a 1/4 of the way to nassau ? what if it was 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/32 ? I'm afraid that you are never going to get a consesnus at which point the captain has a moral obligation to turn the ship around and go back to port so I think this falls into a grey area. I also dont think that it is practical to ask the captain to drop anchor at every allegation of illegality that occurs on the ship.

    I think that disney is in a hard spot here, and although it is easy to infer some sort of malice a lot of times people make decisions based on the information they had at the time that in retrospect they would probably not.

    It would have been great had disney detained the accused in the brig, gotten back to pc and then let the florida cops have a go at him. but my understanding is that they cant hold him against his will once they get to another port, they either have to hand him off to the local cops there or let him go, they cant detain him indefinitely until they get back to florida. once he was off the ship and the bahamanian cops would not ( or could not) arrest or detain him, he's perfectly within his rights to fly back to india. The fact that disney payed for it looks bad but if its a contractual obligation, then its a contractual obligation.

    i would imagine that disney will modify the employment contracts to absolve them of having to pay to return employees to go home in the event they are terminated for a variety of causes, independently of whether there are formal charges brought or not.
     
  21. manhattanman

    manhattanman Mouseketeer

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    This guy was an employee, not some random dude/perv on the subway or in a middle school. If your saying that people would brush off a teacher/custodian or principal who fondled an 11 year old student and forceably kissed her on the mouth and pass it off as a minor thing that isnt worth traumatizing the kid over, I'm glad my kids don't go to that school.

    have we become so jaded as a society that we can rationalize not doing everything possible to see that adults who prey on children don't see the full brunt of the legal profession ? this wasnt two kids of different age fooling around, this was an adult fondling an 11 year old girl. that's never acceptable irrespective of whether it traumatises the child or not, and there are somethings that should be punished exclusively on the intent, not the extent of the damage done.

    And I'm sure that doing a few months in a us prison as a pedophile is no walk in the park. It might not be rehabilative, but its a hell of a lot closer to justice than thumbing your nose at the girl from half a world away as you post to facebook.

    I'm not mad at you and I understand you position that there are many girls and women who have gotten it way worse, but that doesnt give this guy a pass in my book. it just doesnt. You cross the line we come after you both barrels, you dont get to plead for leniency because there are worse people who more egregiously crossed that line. I dont care if you ( not you personally off course) are the worlds " best" pedophile, your still a pedophile.
     
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