I miss the Maelstrom ride so much.

[Andrew015]

But here's some facts to face people: They are building a dark ride based on a movie. Anytime they put in a dark ride based on a movie, people b*tch that it is "not a great ride". But here's what you have to realize about dark rides - they are not directed at YOU Mr and Mrs adult Disney fan - they are directed at kids. In fact, 80% of what Disney puts in is directed to appeal to kids. People *****ing about the 7DMT ride being too mellow and too short - Gee why do you think that is - it's a FAMILY ride!

Fundamentally, I agree with the majority of your argument, but I do take issue with this part of your response. Yes - dark rides based on animated films are geared towards young children. No dispute there. However, WS was never, ever geared specifically towards that same audience (young kids) as MK. Hence the reason why we've never had a dark ride based on an animated movie in EPCOT before, and also, hence the reason why I believe this is a major fundamental change for EPCOT .

I'm not saying that Frozen marks the "end of EPCOT as we know it", but to denounce it as being insignificant in the possible future direction of World Showcase is irrational. Yes - we have seen bits and pieces of things geared specifically towards young kids pop up over the years - princesses scattered here and there, Remy in France, etc., but IMHO, those were side-shows simply meant to help appease the young kids while Mommy and Daddy took in "adult time". Frozen marks much more than just an appeasement effort to pass the time while Mommy and Daddy get tanked in WS. Norway is now going to be a bullseye for a sea of children. I'm not calling this good, bad or indifferent. I'm just calling it what it is - a major fundamental change.

We have seen how TWDC feels about adult entertainment at WDW, as everything has all but gone the way of the dodo bird. I’m not saying that this is a definite, forgone conclusion for WS, but based on past performance (i.e. Pleasure Island), you can’t simply discount the possibility of a full blown Fantasyland 2.0 coming to WS someday in the future. The addition of Frozen in WS doesn't confirm this, but it certainly does nothing to discount that possibility, either.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Exo, you listed three amusement park companies. There are slews more and many of them are real good. Personally, I'd go to Busch Gardens or Kennywood if I'm on the east coast and Knotts in the west.

Also, the lines for the Little Mermaid have dropped considerably and did so quickly. It was practically a walk-on when we were there last month.

I have to agree....15 minute standbys at 11 am 3 days after Easter...

I noticed...guarantee Disney noticed.
Because - like it or not - they want an hour wait...and everybody using the prebook system...on that day.

Why? Because more waits equal more bodies equal more predictable giftshop and food purchases.

There you have "my magic +"

I know I'm gonna get flamed - because the public face is exactly the OPPOSITE...but pay no attention to the man not behind the curtain...

My magic is as much managing expectations of access/usability of the parks as it is actually providing it.
Very Orwellian.

And gotta give props to the shout out for kennywood
And I agree... Six flags is low hanging fruit...

That's like saying Le cellier is worth it because they have higher quality beef than Steak and Shake

 

[lockedoutlogic]

No, I'm saying from the time the movie came out to the time there was a ride in the park. Not the time to build the ride. Disney is obviously dragging out much of its construction, though in this case I would argue they will be rebuilding the ride and adding a new building in < 18 months, which is relatively fast for a lot of what Disney does. But no, I didn't mean it was record time for construction, just record time to get a movie into a ride. Something under 3 years, which again I can't think of any true RIDE that was implemented that quickly after a movie.

Because the rides are built for the shop dump...as in they have to have 20 years of merchandising history before they will build a ride...

It's not exactly a policy I fully support - though I understand it.

"Coming to theaters 1989...the little mermaid! Coming to parks 2008"

"Coming to theaters
1995...toy story! Coming to MGM 2008"

And on and on

 

[skier_pete]

However, WS was never, ever geared specifically towards that same audience (young kids) as MK. Hence the reason why we've never had a dark ride based on an animated movie in EPCOT before, and also, hence the reason why I believe this is a major fundamental change for EPCOT.

There's one other ride in World Showcase. In 2007, they took the ride (El Rio Del Tempo) which was a travelogue of Mexico, and converted it to a dark ride based on the movie "The Three Caballeros". The fact that THAT movie also features a travelogue of Mexico makes the theme fit better, but again the "fundamental change for EPCOT" you describe happened many, many years ago. I'll again point out props and pop-ups strewn throughout 6 countries a la Agent P and A Princess filled restaurant that used to serve traditional Norwegian food to a bunch of empty tables. If you ask me when the "fundamental shift" happened I would say either when they first decided characters were OK to let into the park, or when let the Princesses take over Norway. No matter how you slice it, don't you see we are already 250 miles down the road on this one.

"Coming to theaters
1995...toy story! Coming to MGM 2008"

Sloppy logic - a toy story attraction appeared in Magic Kingdom in 1998. It took an educational ride about the airline industry/world travel and turned it into...a dark ride centered around a Disney Movie.

Wait a second....

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Sloppy logic - a toy story attraction appeared in Magic Kingdom in 1998. It took an educational ride about the airline industry/world travel and turned it into...a dark ride centered around a Disney Movie.

Wait a second....

I realize that...but why double down 10 years later?

And buzz never had people fighting out front to get on it...but then again...there's other things to DO in magic kingdom.

And wouldn't the analogy be if they had taken a fantasy ride...like say Peter pans flight...and converted it to "microsofts computer world"?

That would be inappropriate, based on the theme of the park...like say converting the French pavillion in EPCOT into "enchanted tales with belle"...

You'd agree that was a foul, right?

 

[skier_pete]

I realize that...but why double down 10 years later?

And buzz never had people fighting out front to get on it...but then again...there's other things to DO in magic kingdom.

And wouldn't the analogy be if they had taken a fantasy ride...like say Peter pans flight...and converted it to "microsofts computer world"?

First off, Buzz Lightyear is VERY popular. It is a fast loading ride that I've rarely seen with waits less than 30 minutes and typically 30-60 minutes even at very slow times of year when we go. The Double-down was undoubtably because the idea fit well with the characters, and as you point out - merchandising and cloning. (I didn't disagree with those points.)

As far as education - yes I understand call If You Have Wings "Educational" was a stretch....but you must agree with me that none of those other Epcot changes I mentioned are remotely educational. (Even the Nemo ride has no educational merit, though I would argue using the characters within the pavillion does.)

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So that means frozen belongs in Norway, huh?

I honestly would expect more from you

 

[Andrew015]

There's one other ride in World Showcase. In 2007, they took the ride (El Rio Del Tempo) which was a travelogue of Mexico, and converted it to a dark ride based on the movie "The Three Caballeros". The fact that THAT movie also features a travelogue of Mexico makes the theme fit better, but again the "fundamental change for EPCOT" you describe happened many, many years ago. I'll again point out props and pop-ups strewn throughout 6 countries a la Agent P and A Princess filled restaurant that used to serve traditional Norwegian food to a bunch of empty tables. If you ask me when the "fundamental shift" happened I would say either when they first decided characters were OK to let into the park, or when let the Princesses take over Norway. No matter how you slice it, don't you see we are already 250 miles down the road on this one.

You can't possibly compare what happened in Mexico to what is now happening in Norway. The ride barely changed sans the narrators. Impact to the overall Mexico pavilion was non-existent. The entire Norway pavilion is Freezing over.... Again, my point is that the minor "characterizing" that you speak of that has infiltrated WS over the years has been a side show... up until this point. You never saw commercials for "Sail with the 3 Caballeros in EPCOT" on TV, nor did you see "Dine with Remy in France" billboards when walking through the main concourse at MCO. I guarantee that you will see all of the above and then some for Anna and Elsa arriving to EPCOT. This is no longer a side-show to appease the kids while Mommy sips down $20 Grey Goose slushies. This is now becoming the main attraction... hence, fundamental change.

If we were 250 miles down the road when Donald entered Mexico, we're going to be about 250,000 miles in when Olaf arrives. And where will it go from there?

 

[Andrew015]

It took an educational ride about the airline industry/world travel and turned it into...a dark ride centered around a Disney Movie.

Wait a second....

Not really a fair comparison to make. If You Had Wings might not have been a perfect fit for Tomorrowland, but when it opened in 1972, it wasn't like there was anywhere else to put it (unlike Frozen)...

 

[skier_pete]

You can't possibly compare what happened in Mexico to what is now happening in Norway.

It's all a matter of d-agrees. As in we'll agree to disagree. I think the fact that they are putting a movie set in a fictional scandavian country filled with magical snowmen and talking trolls into the Norway pavilion and replacing a ride that had giant polar bears and talking trolls is neither grand tragedy nor surprising based on established trends. In fact I am going to predict that (a) Disney will not lose customers for doing it and (b) the world will continue to spin round the sun. Perhaps you will tell me that's not the point, but in the end it is what it is, and all the outcry on the internet is but a peep drowned beneath the sound of children in Elsa outfits stampeding towards the ride entrance.

 

[Andrew015]

I am going to predict that (a) Disney will not lose customers for doing it and (b) the world will continue to spin round the sun. Perhaps you will tell me that's not the point, but in the end it is what it is, and all the outcry on the internet is but a peep drowned beneath the sound of children in Elsa outfits stampeding towards the ride entrance.

I'm not predicting anything different in terms of outcome, nor have I from the onset of this discussion. If you've interpreted anything to the contrary from my responses, then you're putting words in my mouth. I'm simply pointing out that what is being done in Norway represents a fundamental change to WS. It will, no doubt, be met with short term gains in both attendance and profitability. That's the suits' only concern at the moment. It's just a shame that A. Maelstrom is getting the axe. B. Frozen isn't getting the justice that it deserves (all new ride) in the right place (MK) and C. that the short-term bump as a result of Frozen's success will take the spotlight off of the rot and decay in FutureWorld for another decade.

EPCOT's engine block is cracked, and it's getting a new exhaust system.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It's all a matter of d-agrees. As in we'll agree to disagree. I think the fact that they are putting a movie set in a fictional scandavian country filled with magical snowmen and talking trolls into the Norway pavilion and replacing a ride that had giant polar bears and talking trolls is neither grand tragedy nor surprising based on established trends. In fact I am going to predict that (a) Disney will not lose customers for doing it and (b) the world will continue to spin round the sun. Perhaps you will tell me that's not the point, but in the end it is what it is, and all the outcry on the internet is but a peep drowned beneath the sound of children in Elsa outfits stampeding towards the ride entrance.

You're supporting the notion that 7 year old girls are more important than 60 year old men at Disney Parks...

And not to go all "Uncle Walt" on you...but THAT is completley wrong.

 

[skier_pete]

I'm not predicting anything different in terms of outcome, nor have I from the onset of this discussion. If you've interpreted anything to the contrary from my responses, then you're putting words in my mouth. I'm simply pointing out that what is being done in Norway represents a fundamental change to WS. It will, no doubt, be met with short term gains in both attendance and profitability. That's the suits' only concern at the moment. It's just a shame that A. Maelstrom is getting the axe. B. Frozen isn't getting the justice that it deserves (all new ride) in the right place (MK) and C. that the short-term bump as a result of Frozen's success will take the spotlight off of the rot and decay in FutureWorld for another decade.

EPCOT's engine block is cracked, and it's getting a new exhaust.

Agree with A, and C, don't know how you can qualify B without seeing the ride, but you may well be right there too. I know we are on the same side of the argument - as I said, our only difference is how far down the path away from the true mission of "epcot". Not apples and oranges. Granny Smiths vs Macintoshes.

You're supporting the notion that 7 year old girls are more important than 60 year old men at Disney Parks...

And not to go all "Uncle Walt" on you...but THAT is completley wrong.

Walt's perspective was "things that the whole family could enjoy together" not necessary "things that appeal to the whole family". You can't tell me Dumbo or the Mad Tea Party or even Peter Pan was designed with more import towards the parents than the kids. I can't friggin WAIT until I don't have to ride Dumbo ever again, but will gladly go on it as long as my daughter wants to.

 

[rteetz]

Agree with A, and C, don't know how you can qualify B without seeing the ride, but you may well be right there too. I know we are on the same side of the argument - as I said, our only difference is how far down the path away from the true mission of "epcot". Not apples and oranges. Granny Smiths vs Macintoshes.



Walt's perspective was "things that the whole family could enjoy together" not necessary "things that appeal to the whole family". You can't tell me Dumbo or the Mad Tea Party or even Peter Pan was designed with more import towards the parents than the kids. I can't friggin WAIT until I don't have to ride Dumbo ever again, but will gladly go on it as long as my daughter wants to.

I think based on the rumored budget it's safe to say frozen deserves more. Especially after what Tokyo is supposed to be getting in terms of frozen if it happens.

What's wrong with Dumbo?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think anybody can enjoy dumbo... Because its part of the feel of the park that was carefully crafted with a central focus...

Even the basic "hub and spoke" model and the transitions...

That being said...nobody in 1979 had any intention of the world showcase being gutted for princess lands...
And even if that slide started Long ago - the fact is anyone can enjoy the tech/world fair (even a corny one) elements within the theme of the park if they give it the same acknowledgement as the cheap cartoon thrills.

So I don't see the validity in the "kids want it" argument...

Just another take - but from a different angle...
Is that NO ONE on this board will insult the artistic detail and the cultural details put into animal kingdom...nor shoud they - because that's Disney. Now...they didnt need that... They could have trimmed in favor of more rides...but it's what makes the park - even unfinished - the park. So why never "the kids don't need harambe...it's boring"?

Why is Norway open to that?

Because its an administrative shell game and a quick strike profit strategy.

You can support that or not...it's all opinion...but acknowledge it.

 

[Andrew015]

I think anybody can enjoy dumbo... Because its part of the feel of the park that was carefully crafted with a central focus...

Even the basic "hub and spoke" model and the transitions...

That being said...nobody in 1979 had any intention of the world showcase being gutted for princess lands...
And even if that slide started Long ago - the fact is anyone can enjoy the tech/world fair (even a corny one) elements within the theme of the park if they give it the same acknowledgement as the cheap cartoon thrills.

So I don't see the validity in the "kids want it" argument...

Just another take - but from a different angle...
Is that NO ONE on this board will insult the artistic detail and the cultural details put into animal kingdom...nor shoud they - because that's Disney. Now...they didnt need that... They could have trimmed in favor of more rides...but it's what makes the park - even unfinished - the park. So why never "the kids don't need harambe...it's boring"?

Why is Norway open to that?

Because its an administrative shell game and a quick strike profit strategy.

You can support that or not...it's all opinion...but acknowledge it.

Preach brother.

 

[eXo]

I wouldn't say the last ride was crap. It's wasn't the best of course but it did tell a bit of a story of Norway which is what was intended. Disney actually also had plans to refurb the ride prior to frozen but of course that changed.

Please reread my comment. I'd like to be able to respond for once without telling someone they completely misread what I wrote.

Here it is, just in case going back is cumbersome. bold added for emphasis.

I'm not defending Disney by saying Frozen belongs there. I'm not saying the last ride was crap and had to be demolished. I'm just saying it's not the end of the world, and I can see why Disney made the decision to do what they are doing. It's a natural reaction to the "sky is falling" nature of some of these topics.

 

[rteetz]

Please reread my comment. I'd like to be able to respond for once without telling someone they completely misread what I wrote.

Here it is, just in case going back is cumbersome. bold added for emphasis.

My apologies

 

[lockedoutlogic]

My apologies

No need to apologize...I don't see anything off the grid in your comments...or honestly anyone else's...

There are definitely two fairly cut and dry sides to this. Neither is "Invalid".

There's a camp here that doesn't want the little girl to take the lid off box...

And there's a camp that doesn't think there is a box

Oh and then there's Pete... Who thinks that the box was crushed in the box crusher at Publix on 535 in 1997

 

[skier_pete]

So that means frozen belongs in Norway, huh?

I honestly would expect more from you

I missed this one. I don't say Frozen belongs in Norway, it doesn't. it's just it's not THAT bad - I just can't see the need to get that worked up about it. Especially in the end because we haven't actually SEEN the final product. There's bigger sins to be up in arms about than this, even about Epcot.