For those who like to pontificate that seciruty is all *theater*......

Discussion in 'Community Board' started by Tonka's Skipper, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    For those who like to think security is all *theater or just a illusion*, here is a incident where is does show a little of the workings behind the scenes:


    Suspicious package delays cruise ship at Florida port
    Reuters – 15 hrs agoEmail0Share0Share0Print(Reuters) - A suspicious package found at the Port of Tampa, Florida on Thursday on a pallet that was to be loaded onto a cruise ship operated by Royal Caribbean Cruises, was not a bomb, the sheriff's office said.

    Two bomb-sniffing dogs found the parcel during a routine security check, said a spokeswoman for the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office. Explosives experts investigated the package before saying it was harmless.

    As a precaution, the sheriff's office evacuated the terminal building being used by Royal Caribbean to check in passengers sailing on its Jewel of the Seas.

    (Reporting by Martinne Geller in New York; and David Adams in Miami. Editing by Maureen Bavdek, Kenneth Barry and Leslie Gevirtz)




    Yes this incident is involving a cruise ship and it could be any cruise line, or it could be a theme park or sports event, and nothing is 100%, but it shows security measures in place and working!

    It could just as easily been a real bomb!


    AKK
     
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  3. woody73

    woody73 <font color=darkorange>Enjoyed the Pumpkinmen<br><

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    Very true.

    One time we arrived at Port Canaveral to board the Disney Magic but the port terminal building was closed. Cast members told us there was a bomb threat and we had to wait across the street in the parking lot. (There was no shade as this was before DCL built the parking structure.)

    We waited for around two hours before the ship was cleared. Once onboard, we learned a bomb-sniffing dog had alerted to a piece of luggage, and they had to call the bomb squad to inspect it.

    Woody
     
  4. lbgraves

    lbgraves Little Cinderella's Mommy

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  5. OrangeCountyCommuter

    OrangeCountyCommuter DIS Veteran

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    And packages have been found at a bank in my home town, by the side of the road etc...

    Honestly right now it's "shoot first" and I don't blame them but I am not really worried over every shut down etc...
     
  6. brentm77

    brentm77 Earning My Ears

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    I am not trying to be disagreeable, but is that the best example? Delaying things for a false positive is not much of a success. On the otherhand, TSA routinely fails tests to screen for real weapons. I know this is not the TSA here, but I am still not convinced security is not mostly theater. But, yes, I would rather have security be safe than sorry.
     
  7. martinm

    martinm Grumpy Old Man

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    I think your giving this too much credit.

    K-9 sniffers are great but the personal inspections are worthless.
     
  8. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    Meaning no disrespect, but quite frankly, I would very much rather be delayed then blown up. I really don't care if we as passengers are delayed to be safe! Sometimes cruisers *wine* about every little thing and a delay for safety, at least to me, is *wining*. (please note I am NOT saying you are wining!)

    When the technology is perfect then we have the right to complain about the errors.

    As pointed out nothing is 100% and yes TSA is not perfect, but since none of us know all that goes on behind the senses , nor do we hear all that is caught and stopped, I would not even suggest its *theater* or use that word, as it is insulting to the folks doing a rather great job under very hard circumstances!
     
  9. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    Not true I am afraid. A few years ago I read a report that personal inspections and scanners caught 256 hand guns in carry on luggage on planes, not to mention HUNDREDS of knives!

    Again like *theater*, saying *worthless is plainly wrong and *snarky* and insulting the folks working at that job.

    AKK
     
  10. martinm

    martinm Grumpy Old Man

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    And I have read recent reports of security checks failing to catch explosives in clothing.
     
  11. wiigirl

    wiigirl DIS Veteran

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    No worthless...but not that effective either.
     
  12. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    Sure!.I agree!.....nothing is perfect....techno or manual!
     
  13. Tonka's Skipper

    Tonka's Skipper DIS Veteran

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    Your right! The most effective security is a combination of various skill, technology and disciplines! Those we all see every day and those going on behind the scenes!

    One of the most effective thing security has is you and me and everyone traveling .............reporting when we seen something that doesn't seem right!


    AKK
     
  14. brentm77

    brentm77 Earning My Ears

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    Point taken on the use of the word theater. I did not mean it to be snarky or insulting to the people running security. I am sure most of them take their job seriously and I am sure we are generally safer than we would be without them.

    But, I stand behind the idea that security is often more show than anything else. But that isn't meant in a negative way, because I am not sure it can be much more than that without invading people's privacy in an unreasonable manner.

    Take the "checkpoints" used before you enter Disneyland. If I wanted to sneak a weapon in, I would just put it under my clothes instead of in a bag. That is all it would take. But, the presence of security may make guests feel a bit safer and might have some deterrent effect. Again, this isn't because people aren't doing their jobs, but because of balancing individual rights versus safety.

    I also agree that I would rather be delayed than blown up. We aren't in disagreement there. I would never complain if I was delayed due to a reasonable security concern. I am not one of the whiners.

    I just don't think pointing to a false positive supports the argument that security works. Finding a case where an actual threat was stopped (which does happen) would support the argument. That is more difficult to do because many success stories aren't reported to the public, to further the investigation.

    I actually haven't been on a Disney Cruise yet (May 4 - so soon), so I can't comment on security there. I don't want to get too off topic. . . I think we are mostly in agreement.
     
  15. TDC Nala

    TDC Nala <font color=red>1937, what a year that was<br><fon Moderator

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    I don't see how it is the fault of the security that they had a false positive. If the dog alerts they have to check it out. Yes, the dogs were wrong. They're not infallible. The alternatives are either not checking at all, or opening every single package to check it.
     
  16. brentm77

    brentm77 Earning My Ears

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    You are putting up a straw man argument. Nobody here blamed security for the false positive. In fact, I said that I would rather be delayed than sorry.

    Instead, I said that the false positive doesn't support the argument that security works. Do you think that a false positive shows that security works? I am always open to opposing opinions, but you arguing against an argument that nobody has made.
     
  17. reimero

    reimero DIS Veteran

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    Security is running common-sense checks and basic scans to try to detect explosives and hidden firearms and such. Good security involves a fair amount of pre-screening of passenger manifests before the passengers even arrive.

    Security theater involves self-important people who have deluded themselves into thinking they're law enforcement rather than security, who make arbitrary decisions on whom to exposed to "enhanced searches" regardless of the "obviousness" of a situation (i.e. screaming toddlers, people with obvious medical conditions in wheelchairs, etc.) This last group is also coupled with vague threats and blatant disregard for the people being checked.

    I haven't encountered anything remotely resembling Security Theater in cruise terminals. I do encounter it at many (but not all) airports.
     
  18. DCTooTall

    DCTooTall <MARQUEE BEHAVIOR=ALTERNATE><img src=http://www.em

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    It's also worth noting that there is a decided difference between the "behind the curtain" check in this story, where they had dogs checking pallets and other big items being loaded onto the ship..... and the "front of the house" checks that everyone sees.


    the behind the scenes checks, such as all the pre-screening done on passenger manifests... checking luggage before it's loaded on a plane or cruise ship... or even the likes of the undercover security Disney uses around the parks who keep an eye out for suspicious behavior and/or things that might require a quick response.... I don't think have ever been accused by anyone of being "theater". Many of these tactics even predate the rise of the post-9/11 paranoia that brought awareness of security tactics to it's current levels.


    The "Front of the House" checks.... such as rotating lists of what can and can't be brought... removal of shoes... full body scanners.... pat-downs of "average" people.... 3-1-1.... Larger profiles of the uniformed Security in any given area.... etc etc, however can sometimes be classified as theater.

    That's not to say that the theater is all just show. Sometimes the Theater can help reassure people by letting them see a small part of operation that's there to keep them safe.... or to help act as a deterant. (the single Security guard in a local bank could be an example. The one guard isn't going to do much... but he is a visable part of the larger security system that includes cameras, alarms, and automatic locks). It can also sometimes act as a choke-point to help focus some of the other systems resources (The Disney Bag Checks can usually be classified like this. It's incredibly easy to sneak stuff "you aren't supposed to have" past the bag check people if you wanted.... But since EVERYONE must pass thru this small area, there are often some plain-clothes people around the area who might be people watching [or the police dog] who might spot some other signs of someone who might be up to no good or might deserve keeping a closer eye on.).

    And Sometimes..... The Theater is mostly for show without a large real security presence behind it to back it up. (think about the people you may know/have known who had a Home Security sign in their yard or on their windows, without having a security system in their home..... or the "Beware the Dog" sign when the dog is a a cute little poodle).


    The real danger is when the show aspects of the security theater, start to think they are the end-all-be-all for Security, and not part of the larger whole.
     
  19. bumbershoot

    bumbershoot DIS Veteran

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    To me, the theater comments are always directed at the stuff that happens in front of us. I'm not sure I've ever read "theater" to describe what happens behind the scenes.


    But...if you think about it, the "feel the outside of the bag, poke a stick in it or peer into it" bag check at Disney almost certainly would have found explosives inside of pressure cookers. The number of CMs at Disney who are constantly noticing things would have noticed backpacks sitting, unattended, on the ground.

    What we might think of as nonsense actually might very well have caught things even before they entered the area, in regards to what happened in Boston.
     
  20. su_A_ve

    su_A_ve DIS Veteran

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    ONE found is ONE too many...
     
  21. Dug720

    Dug720 SQUIRREL!!

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    Right on regarding the CMs at WDW. I remember a few years ago my family was at Studios, and my dad and I were going to the ToT line. We were almost trampled by a large group of Brazilian girls (not stereotyping, they were a Brazilian tour group) who had all dumped their pink backpacks in a pile and just ran off for whatever. Within seconds, a CM came over to ask whose they were. When the group leader stepped forward from the side of the sidewalk where he'd been, he was immediately told that he had to move them and they could not leave them unattended again or they would be confiscated.

    Regarding Boston, really the only way something like that could be prevented would be to close the marathon course to all but those running. And that would destroy the whole spirit of the marathon. In big city marathons, anyone who wants to watch from the side of the street can. They're closed to traffic only.
     

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