Effective DVC Point Rental Agreements

[JimMIA]

If they are, they are only "discouraging" the casual/occasional renter. I doubt the "frequent renters" are deterred the least bit.

Right. That tactic would only be effective with those who didn't really understand the POS, but I'm sure for DVC (or CRO) detering that group is a plus. It's too bad, because it's attacking the group who is doing nothing wrong. But they're an easy target and the result puts money in Disney's pocket.

And it's probably more cost-effective than going after "commercial" renters who are unlikely to be cowed and would undoubtedly resist legally if Disney really tried to shut them down.

 

[JimC]

You know, that's what I thought too -- the first 3-4 times I heard of MS CMs telling people renting was not allowed.

But we're hearing that line too often for it to be a simple rookie mistake. We keep hearing reports of renting being described as "illegal," and CMs saying, "If you tell me you're renting the points, I can't book the ressie." I suspect the CMs have been talked to about the evils of renting and told to discourage it whenever they get a chance.

I agree it's permitted by the POS, but I'm not so sure MS isn't trying to jawbone owners into not renting.

Quite possibly. But why would Disney go down that path? Maybe it is easier for them to instruct CMs to say all renting is illegal, but I think the CMs are good enough to be taught the difference between commercial (prohibited) and occasional (permitted) renting.

 

[JimMIA]

Quite possibly. But why would Disney go down that path? Maybe it is easier for them to instruct CMs to say all renting is illegal...

This is all speculation, of course -- I'm just guessing, but I seriously doubt they would train the CMs to say specifically that renting is "illegal." Much more likely, IMHO, is that they would tell CMs commercial activities like renting are not permitted, are harmful to the underlying purpose of DVC, and should be discouraged. They might have also told the CMs, "If we find you knowingly booked a rental ressie, you're going to be in trouble." Then let the CMs fill in the blanks.

Why would they target occasional renters? Target-rich environment. I'd bet that the majority of the total rental volume comes from legitimate occasional renters -- people who rent 1-2 times a year to offset their dues or get something from points they're not going to be using. No individual occasional renter is a big deal, but I'm sure there are hundreds of them compared to a relatively small number of true commercial renters. If DVC can discourage the casual renter, they can make a dent in their percieved rental problem.

And, as I said above, I'll bet the occasional renter is much less likely to argue with MS than a commercial renter, who will quote them chapter and verse from the POS and threaten to sue them.

 

[Granny]

I agree that there is no way Disney would tell CM's to tell members that renting points is not legal. Frankly, the fact that they are misrepresenting ownership rights could be an issue for them down the road. WIth the stringent Florida timeshare laws, my guess is misrepresntation of a timeshare product or rights is not lightly looked upon by the Florida courts.

I agree, ask for a supervisor. And tell them that you know you are within your membership rights and that the original CM should be "re-trained" on this.

If you just hang up and call another CM, you don't ever get your "complaint" into the system.

 

[mmjm]

This information has been extremely helpful, I have transferred points in the past however this year I need to rent out some points. Without the info supplied on this thread I would have no idea where to begin. I would even use the contract with friends as it lets them know where both parties stand especially if the renters needed to cancel.

 

[Granny]

This information has been extremely helpful, I have transferred points in the past however this year I need to rent out some points. Without the info supplied on this thread I would have no idea where to begin. I would even use the contract with friends as it lets them know where both parties stand especially if the renters needed to cancel.

I think it is wise to have this for friends and even relatives if they are paying. We've seen way too many stories of friends and relatives cancelling last minute and not understanding what that does to a member. The agreement may seem too formal for someone you know well, but I think it's important to have to make sure the friendship doesn't suffer.

 

[JimC]

Much of the advice here is broad guidance. Each individual situation is likely to require modifications.

I agree with Granny that a written agreement (modified appropriately) for family and friends is a good idea. Agreements serve as a permanent reminder of what has been agreed to and each party's obligations and the timing of various aspects. There is nothing wrong with having that with family and friends.

 

[JsMom2]

I'm not sure if this had been addressed earlier in the thread, but I also believe a contract should specifically state a deadline when ALL info needs to be finalized.

It seems (from some of the threads I've seen here) that renters sometimes wait until the last minute to ask the owner to add DDP or ME. This puts unnecessary stress on everyone. I'd suggest that all names, flight info, and requests for DDP or ME should be in 30 days prior. Then if the flight info changes the renter would be responsible for contacting ME directly via the 800 number in their packet.

I'm sure most owners wouldn't have a problem changing a name at the last minute if there was some type of emergency situation. But its not fair to call an owner a week out and expect them to drop everything and add DDP to a reservation. On the other hand, the owner has received money for a reservation that they ethically need to service.

I don't have plans to rent out my points in the near future, but this thread has definitely brought up some great points.

 

[bsusanmb]

Great thread. I rented points from owners in the past and I never got a contract. I paid up front in full also.

I am renting my points for the first time. I was asked for a contract. I will provide one, but I do expect full payment once the contract is received. My points expire Aug 8, are developer points, and I don't want to be stuck with points I can't use at the last minute.

I can see myself on Judge Judy one day...MADAM, YOU SIGNED THIS CONTRACT, DO YOU THINK I AM STUPID

 

[KeithOKW]

Thanks for the great information.

DVC member since the early 90's and this is the first year we won't be using our points (between kids, finally grown up, and grandkids, still too young). It was great to find a place to rent out our points.

Keith - OKW

 

[Quiksilvr]

I didn't read all the way through this thread, but I'm curious... has anyone actually had to try to enforce one of these yet or have things generally worked out for the best? The sample contracts on the first page are pretty good and definitely create a contractual relationship... I just noticed a definite lack of damages and enforcement-related provisions a lot of lawyers would insist upon, thus my curiosity about whether anyone has had to resort to the judicial system. I assume that in most cases, members feel that the point rental isn't really worth taking someone to court over (and enforcement of a judgment could also be more hassle than it's worth).

 

[Granny]

I didn't read all the way through this thread, but I'm curious... has anyone actually had to try to enforce one of these yet or have things generally worked out for the best? The sample contracts on the first page are pretty good and definitely create a contractual relationship... I just noticed a definite lack of damages and enforcement-related provisions a lot of lawyers would insist upon, thus my curiosity about whether anyone has had to resort to the judicial system. I assume that in most cases, members feel that the point rental isn't really worth taking someone to court over (and enforcement of a judgment could also be more hassle than it's worth).

I think that most people here agree that the contract is not particularly enforceable but best serves the purpose of clearly outlining each party's responsibilities. I prefer to call them agreements rather than contracts. If you read the first few pages you'll see some indicators about this.

It is definitely not "legalese". It's more of a communication tool, IMHO. And that alone can make renting points much smoother from both sides.

 

[jcf]

DVC Rental Agreement

This Agreement is made the __ day of ______, 2008 by and between _________ (“Member”) and ______ (“Renter”) with the following Terms and Conditions:
1. Member agrees to use his Disney Vacation Club (DVC) points to provide a reservation for Renter at:
________ Villa - ___ bedroom villa to arrive on _________, 2008 and depart on __________, 2008 (____ points);
2. The reservations will be rented at the rate of $____________(___ points @ $__/pt plus fees) payable via PayPal at the time of booking;
3. If payment is not received as agreed or returned for “insufficient funds”, the reservation shall be cancelled and any deposit and exchange fees (if any) forfeited;
4. All Funds received are NON-REFUNDABLE. Member will always retain control over the reservation. Renter may not sub-lease to a third party. There shall be no room charging privileges permitted.

This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only. There are no ticket media, transportation, meals/meal plans (DDP), transfers, insurance, or other items included. Such items and any additional costs therein are not included in the above referenced rate. Further, Renter understands that there is not daily housekeeping services at DVC resorts.
In addition to payment for points, Renter is responsible for any exchange fees assessed for non-DVC resort accommodations in the booking or re-booking of the reservation and are non-refundable.

Renter will email Member with the first and last names and ages of each person staying in the villa, the arrival and departure dates, the resort, the accommodations (studio, 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom, grand villa). Any special requests regarding room location, view and/or amenities will be made for the Renter by Member at the time of making the reservation but cannot be guaranteed. Upon receipt of written confirmation from DVC (this takes from seven to ten days) and receipt of the balance and exchange fees (if any); Member will mail the confirmation notice to Renter.

In the event that the Renter wishes to change the reservation, Member will make reasonable efforts to assist Renter to make such changes. Any changes must take place on or before _________, 2008 and result in travel being completed by_______, 2008 as that is when the points will expire. Renter shall be responsible for 100% of any additional charges assessed or costs incurred to accommodate Renter’s changes. Payment for these changes shall be due via PayPal upon e-mail or fax notice from Member. Confirmation of payment for such changes is required from PayPal within 5 business days of such notice or reservation shall be cancelled.

Members are subject to all reservation policies of DVC whenever they make a reservation – whether it's for the Member, a guest or a renter. Renter agrees to abide by all DVC terms, policies and rules applicable to DVC members and DVC membership. Pets are not permitted to stay at DVC Resorts, except for service animals as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Any unpaid charges or damages to the room, including all contents and improvements, DVC property and Disney property during his/her stay that are assessed against Member or his membership shall be reimbursed to Member by Renter via PayPal within 10 business days of notice to Renter. Sending a fax or e-mail copy of a DVC or other Walt Disney Company communication assessing the charges or damages shall satisfy notice to Renter. Renter agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the Member due to any actions taken by Renter, Renter’s named party and/or Renter’s guests during the execution of the reservation.

Any modifications of this Agreement are unenforceable unless in writing and signed by the Member and Renter. This Agreement shall be governed under and interpreted and enforced in accordance with the laws of the State of New York.

Reservation Summary
Reservation number (s):
Resort (s):
Additional Requests: DDP (extra expense payable at time of check-in) and Magical Express
Rate: $
Paid: $

Agreed and accepted on the date first shown above.


__________________ _____________________
(Member) (Renter)

 

[kellykell9]

Here's a "fun fact" that I just found out while dealing with PayPal.

I had someone send me payment via credit card through paypal (I forgot that they take % of payment when person uses a cc, but thats not the fun fact), and it was flagged and "held" by paypal as "unauthorized".

I called them to see what the story was. They said it could be a number of things: stolen credit card, expired, an odd purchase from the owner of the credit card, etc... She couldn't elaborate on what it was for me.

I asked her what happens next. They investigate it, and as long as everything is ok, I can get my money. I said "well what if you clear it, and I get my money, and then it does turn out that it was a stolen card? Do I have to then pay the money back?" she said "yes, unless you can prove you sent them goods" I explained what the transaction was, and she said that paypal does NOT cover "services" and this was considered a SERVICE.

What you have to do to protect yourself is to physically mail your renter something (ie the written confirmation) - and to get confirmation of delivery (have the renter sign for it). Then it shows that you sent them something physical for their money, thus letting paypal cover you in the instance that the credit card is found to be stolen.

JUST AN FYI!!!

Kelly

PS it turned out to be just fine, nothing was stolen, it just seemed to be an odd purchase on their part and the credit card company flagged it.

 

[Dean]

Here's a "fun fact" that I just found out while dealing with PayPal.

I had someone send me payment via credit card through paypal (I forgot that they take % of payment when person uses a cc, but thats not the fun fact), and it was flagged and "held" by paypal as "unauthorized".

I called them to see what the story was. They said it could be a number of things: stolen credit card, expired, an odd purchase from the owner of the credit card, etc... She couldn't elaborate on what it was for me.

I asked her what happens next. They investigate it, and as long as everything is ok, I can get my money. I said "well what if you clear it, and I get my money, and then it does turn out that it was a stolen card? Do I have to then pay the money back?" she said "yes, unless you can prove you sent them goods" I explained what the transaction was, and she said that paypal does NOT cover "services" and this was considered a SERVICE.

What you have to do to protect yourself is to physically mail your renter something (ie the written confirmation) - and to get confirmation of delivery (have the renter sign for it). Then it shows that you sent them something physical for their money, thus letting paypal cover you in the instance that the credit card is found to be stolen.

JUST AN FYI!!!

Kelly

PS it turned out to be just fine, nothing was stolen, it just seemed to be an odd purchase on their part and the credit card company flagged it.

someone who was unauthorized just tried to access my paypal account this week and the shut my account down until I reactivated it. They sent me an email (without any links in it) so I logged on independently. I'm glad they did so, just in case and I have not reactivated the account yet even though there is some money I'd like to pull out. I intend to wait a week or two first. One note on the fee for a "business account" which is essentially what you must have to take a CC with paypal. The fee is based on the total amount. It's 30¢ plus 2.9% of the total. So while you think the fees on a $1000 sale would be $29.30, it's actually more like $30.17 if you ask the other party to pay the fees as I usually do for a CC. That difference adds up like always rounding up the tax when there's a fraction involved. The reason is that you pay the fees on the amount included to pay the fees if you ask for it extra.

 

[Quiksilvr]

I think that most people here agree that the contract is not particularly enforceable but best serves the purpose of clearly outlining each party's responsibilities. I prefer to call them agreements rather than contracts. If you read the first few pages you'll see some indicators about this.

It is definitely not "legalese". It's more of a communication tool, IMHO. And that alone can make renting points much smoother from both sides.

Granny: Thanks for the response...I never saw it until today. I think you're right that these agreements serve a purpose in outlining responsibilities, but what concerns me is that if an individual ends up not abiding by the agreement, there doesn't seem to be much the other party can do about it other than sue on a general breach of contract argument. And just as an FYI, calling something an agreement or a contract doesn't change the fact that these agreements are legal contracts. So long as the elements of a contract (e.g., mutual promises and consideration, offer and acceptance, etc.) are in the document, you could call it a Mother's Day card and it would still be a contract. Most of the contracts I work with on a daily basis we call "agreements" because clients prefer that nomenclature. I just don't want anyone to think that if they call these things by another name that it somehow changes what they are.

 

[Terri2007]

In response to Quiksilvr:

I have also wondered whether any of these contracts have attempted to be enforced. From an owner who has rented now on two previous occasions, I have tried to set up the agreement where I do not have to worry about "enforceability". If my points are about to expire, I ask for the all the money in full. In another situation where the the rental is in the future (and before the banking/expiration window), I have required 1/2 up front and 1/2 at 60 days prior or the agreement is cancelled and money non-refundable. If there is non payment then I attempt to re-rent. This creates a more stress free rental for me, and I hope, for the renter. Although, I am sure there is the renter stress of "does this rental exist? what happens if I get there and they don't have it", etc... I think when you have family/friends renting the temptation to circumvent any 'protections' would be strong and could wind up causing problems. Let's face it DVC and staying at WDW is not cheap and involves a fair amount of cash/investment for both parties.

Of course, as an owner, there is always the poss of the renter trashing the room and then being stuck with the bill... this is a scenario that would likely be much more troublesome. I have only been on these boards for the last year and have not heard about this time of instance, but maybe some of the vets have.

Terri

 

[amcrum]

Typically how much should you collect up front from the people you are renting to? I have done 50% in the past but some people say I should get a little more. What are your thoughts?

 

[Duckieluckey]

I typically ask for a check for 50% as soon as the renter receives the confirmation letter and 50% 60 days out. This way the renter knows that he has a confirmed reservation before he puts down any money. I have never had any problem. I also talk to the renter by phone and verify their address and phone number prior to making a reservation.

 

[jcf]

I am not a travel agent and only want to deal with serious people. As a result, I ask for 100% once I have booked the dates. I had no problem finding people. Though my background in law probably provided these people with added piece of mind.