Demand pricing. WSJ article any thoughts

[hopemax]

A friend, who still comes around here sometimes, posted on another board that "Star Wars lands don't build themselves..."

Who the heck was that!

 

[Harambe]

I prebought 6 1 day MK tickets yesterday to save until this disastrous pricing (which I see coming very soon) gets settled. I figured I'd burn all my Disney visa rewards card money now and switch to a different credit card reward structure since I see a trip to see the new stuff coming in a few years and then another LONG wait for the next one (I'll still be in Florida for family once a year, just not at Disney)...never thought Disney would also lose my CC bennies, but they have lost a lot of my business over the years and this is one of my last threads to giving Disney any of my money (after 15 prior trips)...

Yikes - did I miss something???? Are you saying that we will be losing our Disney Rewards Dollars? I have a ton built up for our January 2017 trip (with the hope of more building up this coming year). Has it been talked about that the rewards dollars are going away, or are you saying you are just angry about Disney prices and are no longer planning to visit Disney as much?

 

[hopemax]

How is Disney supposed to control crowds? They need to reduce the number of people at the parks somehow.

I read an article the other day about how American companies have been delaying investment in capital improvements for the last couple decades and that one day it's going to come back and bite them in the tushie. Disney has a crowd control problem because they have failed to invest in new capacity.

Take the Frozen ride that is coming to Epcot. It will be the most popular thing, since...the last Frozen thing, and Disney has chosen to put it in a building with a ride system of 900 people per hour. By comparison, Universe of Energy can carry 2400 people per hour for a 40 min attraction and Horizons could carry 2700 for 15 minutes, and World of Motion was king at 3240 people per hour on another 15 minutes. So while you are waiting too long for a 3-5 minute ride wondering why there are so many people, remember when Disney used to design like that. Sure those rides might have gotten stagnant, but that's not an excuse for changing from ride systems that would carry 2000+ people to ones that are significantly less, and are so much shorter.

Disney can control crowds by having people on rides, watching shows, etc. But they let attractions stagnate, shutter things, reduce capacity, reduce ride times, empty queues via fastpass and then whine they have no other choice but raise prices.

And for real Disney Geeks, I can't remember which one, but there is a series of books with raw interviews with Disney old timers, called Walt's People. One of the later one has an interview with Dick Nunis, who talked about the major capacity initiatives the Magic Kingdom had to take in the 70s when they realized that more people were coming than they anticipated, and they had to start building more attractions...yesterday. Different philosophies.

 

[phillymummer]

Prior to FP+ I always liked the fact that "everyone was equal in the parks". I thought it was awesome compared to the other systems, like Universal, that has a "pay to skip the lines" type of deal going. Which I've used BTW, it's fantastic.

Since WDW went to FP+ and they already had a tiered system based on a "stay on property and pay us to play early" deal, I have changed my mind.

I say let's remove the false pretenses at this point. Make it what it is.

I want to see a system where I can buy extra FP+'s or have a Universal style unlimited skip system.

Considering what's happening, it's no longer what it was. Let's remove the facade and just do it.

I don't think Universal's Express pass system would work in Disney. There are just too many people. Even if you limited it to deluxe hotels (like Universal) that is still.....8 hotels? Can you image 8 hotels worth of people all getting into all of the FP lines? Then do you include the villas in that deal? The Paid Express pass is tiered.... it costs more during peak times.

 

[MolonLabe]

I don't think Universal's Express pass system would work in Disney. There are just too many people. Even if you limited it to deluxe hotels (like Universal) that is still.....8 hotels? Can you image 8 hotels worth of people all getting into all of the FP lines? Then do you include the villas in that deal? The Paid Express pass is tiered.... it costs more during peak times.

Universal's system only works because the lines are short enough that many people choose to wait rather than spend the extra money. If everyone bought the Universal Express Pass, then the Express Pass lines would be just as bad as the standby lines.

But at WDW, the demand, at least for certain attractions, is so high that I could perceive an FP$ quickly becoming a necessity. Just consider the number of people who say that the only reason they eat breakfast at BOG is to get onto the 7DMT before opening. So they'd either have to price FP$ so high as to be unaffordable, or else there would be so many people buying it as to become worthless.

I'm fine with a steep price provided it pays out in less wait time.

Not to sound elitist but honestly everyone's time is worth a different amount. Some people work for $10 an hour, some $20, some $100 ect.

People who understand and value their time would drop the coin on the passes if it equaled out to what they get paid at their day job. i.e. the guy making $10 or $20 an hour is screwed but the guys making $100 an hour will do it.

That's why the jumped the price of the guide so much years back. People figured it out.

Anyway, I agree I don't see it being a perk for the deluxes. It'd have to be a pay to play system on top of the 3. That way the common folks would have no idea who was or wasn't buying their passes vs getting the 3. You can already see it planned for in the queue's. You can't see people coming into the FP queue once you are in the regular one until they meet. That's no accident. They learned Universals mistakes.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Yikes - did I miss something???? Are you saying that we will be losing our Disney Rewards Dollars? I have a ton built up for our January 2017 trip (with the hope of more building up this coming year). Has it been talked about that the rewards dollars are going away, or are you saying you are just angry about Disney prices and are no longer planning to visit Disney as much?

Since the tickets are going to go way up very, very soon, I'm gonna lock in the value of my rewards dollars now for a trip I may get around to in 3-4 years (and I know this 1 day pass will get me in any day of the 365, so Christmas Day, maybe here I come, and then stop using the credit card entirely. Earning only 1% back for a trip I now only plan on taking every 8-10 years, when I have another CC that gives me 1.5% cash back always plus a $100 bonus every 3-6 months for certain use is a better use of my time and money. I used to use the Disney card always for EVERYTHING b/c it was nice to not have to ever pay for meals in the park with my 1% returns (so I never got the meals sticker shock)...but if Disney pricing is gonna get this ridiculous this fast on tickets (with 2 large prices increases in 1 year for nothing returned in the parks), I won't be going there much anyway. I figure either I'll bridge the tickets later to 2-3 day passes, or if that's not possible, I'll wait til the other parks open their "big items" and spend a less-crowded day in MK while on my normal central Florida trips to family...

 

[hopemax]

Expand the parks and put new attractions in. I think once Avatar/StarWars/ToyStory land are done it will really help disperse the crowds. Right now DHS and AK are half day parks to most.

Toy Story Land shows one ride based on a similar ride at California Adventure that handles 600 people per hour and lasts 90 seconds. And one that is similar to a ride at Dollywood which might be 1500 people per hour for 3 minutes.

It will be replacing the Backlot Tour, Backstage Pass areas which, plus One Man's Dream which would occupy people for about an hour and a half (35 min +25 min + 30 min). No matter how cute it is, as far as crowds are concerned, it won't do a darn thing. Star Wars Land is going to need A LOT to do, since the Sounds Dangerous Building, and Premiere Theater's capacities will need to be replaced, and possibly Indy Stage show, Lights Motor Action and Muppets...so far we know 2 rides.

 

[Boski]

Toy Story Land shows one ride based on a similar ride at California Adventure that handles 600 people per hour and lasts 90 seconds. And one that is similar to a ride at Dollywood which might be 1500 people per hour for 3 minutes.

It will be replacing the Backlot Tour, Backstage Pass areas which, plus One Man's Dream which would occupy people for about an hour and a half (35 min +25 min + 30 min). No matter how cute it is, as far as crowds are concerned, it won't do a darn thing. Star Wars Land is going to need A LOT to do, since the Sounds Dangerous Building, and Premiere Theater's capacities will need to be replaced, and possibly Indy Stage show, Lights Motor Action and Muppets...so far we know 2 rides.

I don't agree and you're kinda making a lot of assumptions when we don't have any official info yet. Right now many people consider DHS a half day park with all the closures. Which makes DHS seem crowded because there are a limited amount of attractions to do. And then when those people finish there they head to another park, pushing those parks crowds up.

 

[NJtoATL]

I just watched this

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/disney-parks-consider-off-peak-030600215.html

 

[kathy884]

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. It makes total sense to me that they are looking at this. Peak time attendance is CRAZY and only getting worse. I don't think they'll do any too horribly drastic, as they'd like to keep the image that Disney is for everyone.

The crowds have already changed my behavior, even though usually I can only go at peak season. I jumped at a rare chance to go in December 2014, the full week before Christmas when DS got out of college earlier than most schools were getting out -- a rare crowd level 6 / 7 week before the storm. I'm skipping 2015 and 2016 with no opportunities to go at times with anything but insane crowds. I'm biting the bullet in 2017 with a three night / two day trip during peak spring break season -- just doing one day at the MK -- Keys to the Kingdom tour and a few attractions after that and then a day at SeaWorld -- a park that for us works better during spring break than the MK. Those are as many theme park days as I want to do that time of year.

 

[Ginya]

I do suspect this would be the last straw for lots of people who would decide there's no way to get a reasonable price anymore at all, and attendance in Universal would increase more (I suspect they wouldn't be so dumb as to follow suit). Especially among all the people who can't go whenever they like. I don't think the attendance trend would continue as much even if left alone. A lot of people go because at present it's still possible to get decent ticket prices if you buy enough days, if that were to change I think many would go elsewhere (especially if they feel the value isn't there or it's just too expensive now). People on these boards have mentioned that people have been saving during the recession, and now spending their vacation dollars. As for bursting at the seams, I recall reading on this board that attendance levels were just as high in 1991 (when they had 3 parks). They didn't then feel the need to explore extreme options. Don't they realize they've far outpaced inflation already? Iger's legacy is apparently that it's now the cold company who no longer cares about the customer at all, at least not from the corporate standpoint

Actually, Universal is worse with pricing! They have universal express instead of FP. If you stay in their deluxe resort it is free. We are staying this December before we get to Disney. We picked Cabana Bay, their value resort, because I LOVE mid century modern lol. Not funny is the 89$ dollars a person extra, on top of hotel and tickets I am paying for their universal express pass. Worse is we are there Dec 20th, the next day those passes jump to $109.! Oh, and those are the prices for the ride each ride one time only, unlimited riding was more! BTW, the harry potter rides are not included in the express pass. So, really, I am surprised if Disney wanted to make extra money, they wouldn't try making people pay for FPs like Universal and perhaps only DVC members would get them for free.

 

[RedAngie]

That will be part of the "Double Tiered Dream Magic Fantasy Special Happy Funtime" ticket package to be rolled out next year.

Because Disney ticket pricing isn't complicated enough.

Sure, why not? Disney execs are already experts in making easy things difficult. It's about time they graduated into screwing up the more complex ideas.

 

[MickeyWaffles]

I have no issues with a tiered park ticket pricing system, just like I have no problem with the varying room/DVC points rates that are based on the time of year. It makes 100% sense to me.

 

[Ginya]

I think part of the problem of they are "bursting at the seams" is because for several years now they have been building DVC villas etc at a crazy rate. Now they are getting around to building more lands with things to suck up the larger pool of resort guests due to all the new DVC, but the attraction building is lagging too far behind the lodging building.

 

[epcotty]

Actually, Universal is worse with pricing! They have universal express instead of FP. If you stay in their deluxe resort it is free. We are staying this December before we get to Disney. We picked Cabana Bay, their value resort, because I LOVE mid century modern lol. Not funny is the 89$ dollars a person extra, on top of hotel and tickets I am paying for their universal express pass. Worse is we are there Dec 20th, the next day those passes jump to $109.! Oh, and those are the prices for the ride each ride one time only, unlimited riding was more! BTW, the harry potter rides are not included in the express pass. So, really, I am surprised if Disney wanted to make extra money, they wouldn't try making people pay for FPs like Universal and perhaps only DVC members would get them for free.

Well I don't think Universal would do that with regular park tickets. We feel express pass isn't necessary there on the whole so we don't get that.

And no matter how many on these boards have no problem with tiered pricing, if it happens it'll depend on what the general public thinks as to its degree of success/failure (I'm sure a lot will not be pleased with an obvious big price hike, especially if they can only go at popular times)

 

[mummabear]

I read an article the other day about how American companies have been delaying investment in capital improvements for the last couple decades and that one day it's going to come back and bite them in the tushie. Disney has a crowd control problem because they have failed to invest in new capacity.

Take the Frozen ride that is coming to Epcot. It will be the most popular thing, since...the last Frozen thing, and Disney has chosen to put it in a building with a ride system of 900 people per hour. By comparison, Universe of Energy can carry 2400 people per hour for a 40 min attraction and Horizons could carry 2700 for 15 minutes, and World of Motion was king at 3240 people per hour on another 15 minutes. So while you are waiting too long for a 3-5 minute ride wondering why there are so many people, remember when Disney used to design like that. Sure those rides might have gotten stagnant, but that's not an excuse for changing from ride systems that would carry 2000+ people to ones that are significantly less, and are so much shorter.

Disney can control crowds by having people on rides, watching shows, etc. But they let attractions stagnate, shutter things, reduce capacity, reduce ride times, empty queues via fastpass and then whine they have no other choice but raise prices.

And for real Disney Geeks, I can't remember which one, but there is a series of books with raw interviews with Disney old timers, called Walt's People. One of the later one has an interview with Dick Nunis, who talked about the major capacity initiatives the Magic Kingdom had to take in the 70s when they realized that more people were coming than they anticipated, and they had to start building more attractions...yesterday. Different philosophies.

 

[hvsteve1]

That's why we never had kids....so we could afford to go to Disney. Actually, being retirees, we normally try to go during slow season to avoid crowds and I think off-peak pricing is a fair deal for us. We always miss the special events and have been there when everyone at Epcot was wrapped in the blankets from their hotels because it was so cold. And I can be guaranteed that the off season times are when one or more attractions I want to see or a ride I'm looking forward to will be closed for maintenance. So, why should I pay the same price as those enjoying a holiday season, the food and wine festival or a time when everything is up and running? I feel for those who say this is getting priced out of their family budget, but, as other posters have said, this has become a deluxe vacation.

 

[crostorfer]

Actually, Universal is worse with pricing! They have universal express instead of FP. If you stay in their deluxe resort it is free. We are staying this December before we get to Disney. We picked Cabana Bay, their value resort, because I LOVE mid century modern lol. Not funny is the 89$ dollars a person extra, on top of hotel and tickets I am paying for their universal express pass. Worse is we are there Dec 20th, the next day those passes jump to $109.! Oh, and those are the prices for the ride each ride one time only, unlimited riding was more! BTW, the harry potter rides are not included in the express pass. So, really, I am surprised if Disney wanted to make extra money, they wouldn't try making people pay for FPs like Universal and perhaps only DVC members would get them for free.

It's not worse. Price your suite at Cabana Bay vs a suite at the AoA, and a three day US park hopper vs a WDW three day park hopper. Even paying for express passes, you still come out ahead.

Have one member of your family buy an annual pass to US. It's only a little more than a 3 day park to park. You don't even have to pay for it all up front, Universal allows for a monthly payment system for non-Florida residents, as well as locals. That annual pass pays itself off in one stay with the resort discount alone, not to mention the food and merchandise discounts, and reduced price companion tickets. I can stay at Cabana Bay for around $100 per night on my annual pass at certain times of year.

 

[jenrose66]

I prebought 6 1 day MK tickets yesterday to save until this disastrous pricing (which I see coming very soon) gets settled. I figured I'd burn all my Disney visa rewards card money now and switch to a different credit card reward structure since I see a trip to see the new stuff coming in a few years and then another LONG wait for the next one (I'll still be in Florida for family once a year, just not at Disney)...never thought Disney would also lose my CC bennies, but they have lost a lot of my business over the years and this is one of my last threads to giving Disney any of my money (after 15 prior trips)...

I used my disney reward points for an airfare credit on last years trip to Universal.

 

[mshanson3121]

My problem with it is it penalizes people that can only travel during those times; teachers and school-aged children in particular. There is a reason it is more crowded at those times, and Disney has already implemented strategies to increase attendance at their slow times. (Free dining, discounted room rates, etc.). Charging more for tickets during the "prime times" isn't going to change park attendance, it's just going to force the people that can only go at those times to pay more. They will still only be able to go during peak season; it's not as if suddenly their tickets when they are available to go will be $15 more so school will close in October so they can go to Disney when it's cheaper. So, I suppose they will do it, and they will increase their profits, but it isn't going to noticeably change their park attendance distribution.

Exactly. We are one of those families. It's penalizing those of us who don't have a choice. I agree that this system will not make a noticeable difference in crowd levels - the crowds are what they are, because that's when the vast majority of their clients (people with school aged children) are able to travel. If anything, I think all they may accomplish is losing customers. Enough to make a difference, unfortunately probably not. But, if they implement this change, it will very likely mean that we will not return to Disney. It's expensive enough as it is to travel when we have to - raising the prices even more will just make it so we're forced to spend our money elsewhere. And I can guarantee we won't be the only ones.