DAS changes coming WDW May 20/ DL June 18, 2024

[LongLiveRafiki]

As to the abuse and optimization of DAS -- sure, good math exercise. I would bet that the majority of DAS holders do not stay over 6 hours at the park on any given day.

I wasn't in any way trying to indicate that the example I gave would be possible for ALL DAS users. I definitely understand that situations will vary. A DAS user may take longer to get between rides due to taking care of medical issues, may need to leave and return to the LL for medical reasons adding more time, etc. A non-DAS user may take longer to get between rides because they need to stop for restroom/get a snack, etc. It was moreso just how it could be possible for some DAS users to get on rides quicker.

In regards to most DAS holders not staying in the parks longer than 6 hrs, that may be correct. There are plenty of non-DAS users who are unable to stay in the parks longer than 6 hrs though too, so I'm not sure why length of time an individual can spend in the parks is relevant. Not trying to be snarky there, genuinely curious why you mentioned that.

Okay, that makes sense. As long as the wait times are on average fairly correct, I don't know if they will need to adjust them or not, it really depends on what the actual data says. There is a lot of talk about wait times being inflated, and it does seem that way at times (Especially late at night, which is the time I have noticed it usually a much shorter wait than posted). But there are other things which they may be accounting for.

I had both overestimated and underestimated wait times on my last trip, but I hear more people say they are overestimated. I think that is true when everything goes right. When the ride doesn't go down I feel my waits have more often than not had a shorter than advertised wait. But when rides go down? I feel we as guests sometimes can't count a lost ride as time waited in line for that ride, because it doesn't make sense if we didn't get to ride it. But over the whole day if it comes back up or over multiple visits it can make the average wait go up. They don't know when a ride will go down, so maybe they are accounting for it. If I ride Pirates one day and the wait time is 30 minutes but the wait was actually 15, but then I go to ride it again, the wait time is still 30 minutes, but I wait 15 minutes and the ride goes down and I leave line? I technically waited 30 minutes and only rode once. A 30 minute average. Does anyone really know if they include buffers like this for ride downtime? The data would decide what they would need to do with DAS timing if they remove the second line waiting ability.

If they are accounting for the average number of short downtimes for a ride during the day or baking in the possibility of a long delay, the average wait times could actually be accurate. If a ride goes down for 10 minutes during a standby queue wait, they are delayed by 10 minutes (or more if the LL gets backed up) If that ride goes down for 10 minutes during a DAS return wait but gets back up and running before their wait is up, they get to hop in LL on time and their wait is fairly unaffected. If it goes down for a long time, the standby guest leaves line and their wait is wasted. If it goes down and is down during the DAS user's return window, they may get one of the passes that allows them to return to that LL (or maybe a different ride's LL) any time later once it is back up and could allow them to book another DAS return time at that point. As long as that ride comes back up that day or they use a pass at a different ride, that DAS user is somewhat insulated from rides going down. The standby guest is not.

You do bring up some good points. I will say that in the past (though this was many years ago), I was given FP that could be used on most rides if a ride went down while I was in standby to compensate for that loss of time. Is that still common?

What you brought up though with factoring in predicted down times could explain why standby wait times seem inflated (if Disney is actually factoring that in).

Here’s my question…if several DAS users request a return time, does the standby wait time go up?! Or is it only if people are physically standing in the line? Bc to me that has ramifications to both the standby line and the lightening lane. If 10 parties of DAS (currently 6 people) all request a return time for 10am at big thunder that is the equivalent of 60 people getting in line right before you. Is the standby time being adjusted to account for those 60 people who will then go through the lightening lane before you? Just something to think about!

That's a good point as well and also could make it appear that standby waits are inflated if they are factoring that in to their calculations (no idea if they do or not).

I find it totally unfair to have Autism-like maladies as the only acceptable DAS category.

I think Disney is setting themselves up for opening a can of worms. And I hope they are. There HAS to be a better way than only one acceptable problem.

Disney isn't saying that "autism and similar" are the only issues that will be accommodated. Others will just be accommodated in ways other than DAS. ADA only requires accommodation, not an individual's preferred accommodation. IF (not saying it will in all instances) rider swap, leave the line, and any other accommodations Disney hasn't yet announced are able to accommodate an individual, then Disney is not obligated to provide DAS to that individual just because DAS is offered to others with different needs.

 

[Unity]

But if you cannot afford the Dr visits needed for a diagnosis and treatment, I feel like chances are high you aren't really able to afford Disney anyway?

Have you read my other post specifically high-lighting how this argument doesn't erase the struggles? [Diagnosis and tests alone cost more than a Disney trip sometimes and this can be a wait of years.]

 

[Jrb1979]

But aren't we talking about two different things at once now? There's LL capacity, which I would define as how many people can be in the LL line itself. And then there's ride capacity, which is how many people overall can ride the attraction per hour.

We've all seen them increase LL capacity as needed, such as Haunted Mansion when from time to time a CM is out there with a stick halfway down the park saying this is where the LL begins.

In your example (assuming the 70% DAS number is realistic) it may appear that only 100 standby guests per hour would be getting through. But please don't forget, DAS people ARE standby guests in that they got into line a long time ago...often HOURS ago and they have been waiting the standby wait time just like everybody else in the standby line.

So using your example numbers they'd actually be letting through 800 standby guests per hour not 100. DAS users ARE standby and it's their turn.

Also using your extreme scenario I would point out what would happen to standby times if they were letting 90% LL through. The standby time would shoot up. What would this mean for DAS users? Their return time would go later and later, thereby giving relief to the LL line size and the need to let so many LL through.

While your wait is equal to the amount of standby time, when you go to ride the attraction you are physically counted in the LL queue.

They only calculate standby wait time according to who is physically in the line. DAS doesn't factor into that time as they aren't physically in the line.

 

[nalababybear]

I wasn't in any way trying to indicate that the example I gave would be possible for ALL DAS users. I definitely understand that situations will vary. A DAS user may take longer to get between rides due to taking care of medical issues, may need to leave and return to the LL for medical reasons adding more time, etc. A non-DAS user may take longer to get between rides because they need to stop for restroom/get a snack, etc. It was moreso just how it could be possible for some DAS users to get on rides quicker.

In regards to most DAS holders not staying in the parks longer than 6 hrs, that may be correct. There are plenty of non-DAS users who are unable to stay in the parks longer than 6 hrs though too, so I'm not sure why length of time an individual can spend in the parks is relevant. Not trying to be snarky there, genuinely curious why you mentioned that.

Folk can cite fringe examples on any case. Making meaningful comparisons of average/mean/1 Standard Deviation is what drives processes and change decisions.

Mean average DAS holders compared to touring styles of average non-DAS holders. Time in park is a value based metric on a fixed price entrance as can a per attraction basis. It's not a perfect metric by any means. It is a metric to give a picture of overall experience of a park goer; especially when some solutions being proposed are cutoff times or expanded hours on either end.

 

[Disturbia]

Deleted

 

[smartlabelprint]

You explained this so well when I was uncertain how to put it into words, thank you for that. As an adult, I can mask to a certain degree to the point that you may not be able to tell I’m struggling until I reach a certain breaking point.

Even my kids with DD’s seem to go 0–100 in 5 seconds. I have to do a lot of check ins because they also have interoception issues and cannot explain what’s going on or they’ve always been that way so it’s their normal and they don’t know I have strategies we can try.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

Folk can cite fringe examples on any case. Making meaningful comparisons of average/mean/1 Standard Deviation is what drives processes and change decisions.

Mean average DAS holders compared to touring styles of average non-DAS holders. Time in park is a value based metric on a fixed price entrance as can a per attraction basis. It's not a perfect metric by any means. It is a metric to give a picture of overall experience of a park goer; especially when some solutions being proposed are cutoff times or expanded hours on either end.

Disney likely has the data to compare how long DAS users spend in a park on average with non-DAS users, as well as how many rides they do in a day vs non-DAS users. As far as I know, that info is not available to the public so no one can really make an accurate guess.

Should that mean though that if hypothetically the non-DAS users spend an average of 9 hours in MK and ride 9 rides on average, that DAS users that hypothetically spend 6 hours in MK on average should also be able to ride 9 rides during those 6 hours to make it a comparable experience? It could be Disney looks at their data that way in trying to make experiences equitable for DAS users, but it's definitely not required legally or is it practical in most situations to think that anyone, disabled or not, will/should be able to do more in less time. So again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the relevance of how long someone is able to spend in a park.

 

[smartlabelprint]

I wasn't in any way trying to indicate that the example I gave would be possible for ALL DAS users. I definitely understand that situations will vary. A DAS user may take longer to get between rides due to taking care of medical issues, may need to leave and return to the LL for medical reasons adding more time, etc. A non-DAS user may take longer to get between rides because they need to stop for restroom/get a snack, etc. It was moreso just how it could be possible for some DAS users to get on rides quicker.

In regards to most DAS holders not staying in the parks longer than 6 hrs, that may be correct. There are plenty of non-DAS users who are unable to stay in the parks longer than 6 hrs though too, so I'm not sure why length of time an individual can spend in the parks is relevant. Not trying to be snarky there, genuinely curious why you mentioned that.

You do bring up some good points. I will say that in the past (though this was many years ago), I was given FP that could be used on most rides if a ride went down while I was in standby to compensate for that loss of time. Is that still common?

What you brought up though with factoring in predicted down times could explain why standby wait times seem inflated (if Disney is actually factoring that in).

That's a good point as well and also could make it appear that standby waits are inflated if they are factoring that in to their calculations (no idea if they do or not).

Disney isn't saying that "autism and similar" are the only issues that will be accommodated. Others will just be accommodated in ways other than DAS. ADA only requires accommodation, not an individual's preferred accommodation. IF (not saying it will in all instances) rider swap, leave the line, and any other accommodations Disney hasn't yet announced are able to accommodate an individual, then Disney is not obligated to provide DAS to that individual just because DAS is offered to others with different needs.

No you don’t get anything in standby if the ride goes down. You can keep waiting or forfeit the time you have already waited.

 

[smartlabelprint]

Disney likely has the data to compare how long DAS users spend in a park on average with non-DAS users, as well as how many rides they do in a day vs non-DAS users. As far as I know, that info is not available to the public so no one can really make an accurate guess.

Should that mean though that if hypothetically the non-DAS users spend an average of 9 hours in MK and ride 9 rides on average, that DAS users that hypothetically spend 6 hours in MK on average should also be able to ride 9 rides during those 6 hours to make it a comparable experience? It could be Disney looks at their data that way in trying to make experiences equitable for DAS users, but it's definitely not required legally or is it practical in most situations to think that anyone, disabled or not, will/should be able to do more in less time. So again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the relevance of how long someone is able to spend in a park.

Length of time in park *to me, my opinion* shows overuse, not actual abuse of DAS. I think a lot of overuse is people that could be accommodated differently than DAS. But then you have annual passholders that may only come a few hours that dumps my theory out that it’s a useful measure to Disney in any way. We average 6 or less hours a day, if that helps understand my perspective.

I think it’s also telling that in almost all cases people are talking about LL rides. We ride very few LL’s. Actually, this is why I think they’re focusing DD children for DAS, they already know they’re not taking up a lot of LL space. Sure, they’re trying to get rid of abusers, but they’re also trying to free up LL space and this discussion seems to agree on that point.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

No you don’t get anything in standby if the ride goes down. You can keep waiting or forfeit the time you have already waited.

That's good to know, though obviously sucky for those it happens to.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

I think a lot of overuse is people that could be accommodated differently than DAS.

Agreed.

But then you have annual passholders that may only come a few hours that dumps my theory out that it’s a useful measure to Disney in any way. We average 6 or less hours a day, if that helps understand my perspective.

That's why I don't understand how amount of time spent in a park can be relevant. There are so many reasons why people spend a less than average amount of time in the park and plenty of people without DAS also spend 6 hours or less per day in a park.

Now, if we were saying DAS users spend 6 hrs on average in MK, then I think it may be a worthwhile comparison to see how many rides a non-DAS user does in an average 6 hr period in MK compared with a DAS user. Is the average DAS user accomplishing less rides during the same amount of time?

I think it’s also telling that in almost all cases people are talking about LL rides. We ride very few LL’s. Actually, this is why I think they’re focusing DD children for DAS, they already know they’re not taking up a lot of LL space. Sure, they’re trying to get rid of abusers, but they’re also trying to free up LL space and this discussion seems to agree on that point.

I disagree that they are focusing on children as "developmental disabilities like autism or similar" in no way indicates that will be only or primarily children given DAS. Those issues aren't things one grows out of so I don't see any reason to think Disney's focus is on kids. Regardless though, issuing less DAS will free up LL space (as long as they don't then substantially increase sales of Genie+ or some sort of similar program).

 

[smartlabelprint]

I disagree that they are focusing on children as "developmental disabilities like autism or similar" in no way indicates that will be only or primarily children given DAS. Those issues aren't things one grows out of so I don't see any reason to think Disney's focus is on kids. Regardless though, issuing less DAS will free up LL space (as long as they don't then substantially increase sales of Genie+ or some sort of similar program).

It’s just a theory of mine that some adults with DD’s will be asked to use a different accommodation than DAS in order to free up LL space. I know my oldest is slowly maturing and could probably handle rider switch as an adult. But my middle child will always need intense assistance. I think every person will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

It’s just a theory of mine that some adults with DD’s will be asked to use a different accommodation than DAS in order to free up LL space. I know my oldest is slowly maturing and could probably handle rider switch as an adult. But my middle child will always need intense assistance. I think every person will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Fair enough. I can understand what you mean there. I do think it would probably be more difficult for most families with a child with developmental disabilities/autism to use this new expanded version of rider swap and have their family separate than for some adults with similar issues. Not saying ALL adults with DDs/autism would be able to successfully use RS as obviously individuals and their needs vary, but there *may* be more scrutiny for adults with those issues vs kids in determining if they can be accommodated with RS rather than DAS. We'll just have to wait and see how Disney implements these changes.

 

[Kgrace1989]

Length of time in park *to me, my opinion* shows overuse, not actual abuse of DAS. I think a lot of overuse is people that could be accommodated differently than DAS. But then you have annual passholders that may only come a few hours that dumps my theory out that it’s a useful measure to Disney in any way. We average 6 or less hours a day, if that helps understand my perspective.

I think it’s also telling that in almost all cases people are talking about LL rides. We ride very few LL’s. Actually, this is why I think they’re focusing DD children for DAS, they already know they’re not taking up a lot of LL space. Sure, they’re trying to get rid of abusers, but they’re also trying to free up LL space and this discussion seems to agree on that point.

I agree that there are probably a lot of DAS guests that could probably be accommodated differently than only giving them DAS…
However, I do have to say that it might not be fair to use length of time in the parks (or the number of attractions done) as an indicator of DAS overuse or abuse… while it certainly could be someone faking it if they are there all day or riding a lot of rides.
But, if the accommodation works as it should then the guest very well might be able to do the entire day in the park like a typical guest, because their needs are being met, allowing them to have a more “normal” park experience.
I say this because my nephew (severely autistic) used to love going to Disney when he was very young . even though this was a kid who at age 7 was still in diapers and so sensory sensitive he would wear construction worker ear protection to even go to the store.. something about Disney resonated with him that he would go and just be mesmerized.
He still had meltdowns on occasion certainly, but he loved it so much that my sister and her husband would take him and the two of them would work so hard to make his day go as smoothly as possible orchestrating snacks, breaks in quiet areas, lots of play time in the water play areas ect
So somedays he was able to spend sometimes 9 or 10 hours in the parks.
And he was such a sensory seeker that he loved attractions that jostled him (space mountain, thunder mountain ect) … so it wasn’t uncommon that he might ride those 2 attractions 6 or 7 times in a day (as many times as they could get a return time before the park closed basically lol) …
but they did not partake in other attractions between rides. (I’m not saying it’s wrong if DAS holders do this, I’m just saying they chose not to) They would get a time to come back, and then wait letting him do the water tiki area or the train play area near dumbo, seeking out areas where he wasn’t in tight spaces around others and he could be free to pace as he processed the sensory overload. But still he could sometimes be there all day and ride as much as “typical” kid…
So sometimes folks can still really need the accommodations even if they can put in a long day and ride many attractions.

 

[Kgrace1989]

It’s just a theory of mine that some adults with DD’s will be asked to use a different accommodation than DAS in order to free up LL space. I know my oldest is slowly maturing and could probably handle rider switch as an adult. But my middle child will always need intense assistance. I think every person will be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Agreed 100%.. it’s astounding how some disabilities can have the same diagnosis and differ vastly on the different tiggers and needs.

 

[Kgrace1989]

Fair enough. I can understand what you mean there. I do think it would probably be more difficult for most families with a child with developmental disabilities/autism to use this new expanded version of rider swap and have their family separate than for some adults with similar issues. Not saying ALL adults with DDs/autism would be able to successfully use RS as obviously individuals and their needs vary, but there *may* be more scrutiny for adults with those issues vs kids in determining if they can be accommodated with RS rather than DAS. We'll just have to wait and see how Disney implements these changes.

Yeah unfortunately usually very severely affected children on the spectrum grow up to be severely affected adults.
Not always though, some do present less symptoms as they mature

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Length of time in park *to me, my opinion* shows overuse, not actual abuse of DAS. I think a lot of overuse is people that could be accommodated differently than DAS. But then you have annual passholders that may only come a few hours that dumps my theory out that it’s a useful measure to Disney in any way. We average 6 or less hours a day, if that helps understand my perspective.

I think it’s also telling that in almost all cases people are talking about LL rides. We ride very few LL’s. Actually, this is why I think they’re focusing DD children for DAS, they already know they’re not taking up a lot of LL space. Sure, they’re trying to get rid of abusers, but they’re also trying to free up LL space and this discussion seems to agree on that point.

If I am interpreting the tea leaves correctly, I am someone (with a legit medical condition) who may fall into overuse (or more provocatively “misuse”)— we used to use FP+ and tried G+ and wheelchair before a spine doctor suggested DAS (even still at DLR we do not use DAS because we can get on enough of the rides my kids love with G+ and ILL and they can understand that some days we just can’t do everything or they can ride with dad while mom does laps around the Matterhorn or curls up in a ball on a bench. I suspect going forward Disney wants me to use rider switch (alone or with one kid) if I want to ride—which isn’t perfect but feels fairer than nothing between DAS and not riding anything over a 30m wait. We might visit a little less, probably ride shorter rides or rides where we buy LL together, and I’ll skip some of the other rides (also easier when one/both kids are old enough to not need an adult)— as I mentioned a hundred pages ago, we didn’t do TT even with LL and/or DAS on our last trip because the line was too long…and we should have skipped BTMRR if we knew it would be as long as it was.

Not sure how others would feel but I would wholeheartedly support Disney tracking park visits via phone/MB and defaulting to denying DAS to users who use DAS and end up with more than say 133% of the average rides completed by a non-DAS user who had been at the park from rope drop to close. Not saying they would definitely be denied, but much more scrutiny should be applied and it would probably be a strong indicator you would be ok with more limited accommodations. I actually think a variety of variations on this theme would hold up in court— “we gave them DAS, saw they did 1.5x as many rides as the average guest, stayed 90% of park hours, and flagged them to modify accommodation on next visit.”

Finally, I do expect DAS to be more centered on children in part because it’s less common for a “faker” to be able to come up with a child with developmental disabilities, but also is the party is limited to 4, even if you are able to convince a family with a special needs child to join you, it’s not going to make your day faster or easier and you can’t bring many of your friends. I really hope Disney is already keeping track of everyone with wrong answers and identical scripted statements because I do fear people who get screened out will keep researching (on boards like this) and calling back until they succeed.

 

[Kgrace1989]

I'm glad personally that Disney's third party people are #1 a medical group, not a marketing group , and #2 doing training & consultation, not registration.

Some people have taken the information about the number of Disney employees with disabilities as meaning there is a large number of Disney employees abusing DAS. The point here is that Disney has a large internal group that they can run changes/proposes by. I know they did this with the change from GAC (Guest Assistance Card) to DAS in 2013. I know they also consulted outside disability groups then.

Regarding the large numbers of people using disability cards when Toy Story Mania opened in 2008, that was when GAC was still in effect, so people with disabilities were able to enter without waiting in the regular line. Many (if I remember correctly, pretty much all) of the plaintiffs in the GAC Autism case said their child needed to repeat the same ride over and over, without pause.
The same thing happened at Radiator Springs Racers in Disneyland, where when it opened, the majority of Fastpass 'slots' were being used by guests using GAC. I can't find the article right now, but it said people observed large numbers of people using GAC go in to ride, come out and go right back in to ride, many, many times. With GAC, the guest had to show their card to a CM at the entrance. For ease of use, many people reportedly wore their card on a lanyard around their neck.
I also read lots of accounts in different places where people had posted "our holidays will be ruined without GAC" . These people were mostly California locals to Disneyland who wrote their Christmas, Easter or whatever holiday tradition was to go to the park, ride most everything they wanted and leave right after the afternoon parade. Whether disabled or pretending to be disabled, that is abuse.

Regarding the Ticketmaster ADA seat being bought by people without needs, I don't see anything that really compares it to a theme park. For example, someone who needs an accessible ride car, ASL translation or accommodations for any other disability could go any day. A concert usually has a one night possibility of going. l could not, for example, say "all the ADA seats are sold out for today. I'll just go tomorrow," because the concert won't be there tomorrow.

Random calls from a 407 are code doesn't mean they are from Disney staff.


Things I've read have indicated DAS will only be for the specific group including Developmental Disabilities, but would include other accommodations for other groups. I read that when it was briefly posted on the WDW and DL websites. That has been poor communication and very frustrating - I see something and later it's not there when I look again.
When GAC changed to DAS, there was little information about GAC on Disney's websites. In fact, pretty much none.

Wow. That does sound like the program before the DAS needed to change for sure. I have a nephew with autism, so I am super empathetic to folks with special needs… but how frustrating it would be to watch people with a disability access card repeat the attraction over and over with no pause in between.
As I said in another post of mine, my nephew had a few favorite attractions.. but with the DAS they would get a time after riding to be able to ride again… and they were not comfortable riding other attractions in between or while waiting, just because my sister said it “felt like cheating” to them. And he was used to that system because they live near Hershey Park and that is way their system worked, you could only have one ride at the time to wait for and you couldn’t do other rides while waiting (I’m not saying it’s wrong to do that while waiting, since currently disney allows it) they just chose not to.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

Yeah unfortunately usually very severely affected children on the spectrum grow up to be severely affected adults.
Not always though, some do present less symptoms as they mature

Yeah, that makes sense. My comment of it possibly being more difficult for some kids than adults with the same DD/autism issues to use RS was thinking less along the lines of sensory issues decreasing as they get older (as I doubt that happens in most of not all cases), but that *some* adults may be better able to handle waiting with just 1 family member while the rest ride standby than *some* kids with similar issues. Obviously that won't work for all adults with those issues though.

Some, regardless of age, will need more than one adult with them to help manage their needs though so RS may not work even if that individual could otherwise handle having their family separated. Hopefully those are things Disney takes into consideration in determining each individual's accomodations.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

Agreed 100%.. it’s astounding how some disabilities can have the same diagnosis and differ vastly on the different tiggers and needs.

Absolutely. I have several diagnosed disabilities. 5 of them cause issues that numerous people have received DAS for. I've never applied for DAS or felt that I needed it. I've had medical issues in lines, had to leave loads of lines, leave the park early, etc, but for me, I never felt that accomodations were necessary. Sure, it would have been helpful and made my day easier, but I was still able to go on rides, even if it meant leaving the line and returning after taking care of an issue.

That doesn't mean that I think everyone with those same disabilities that received DAS shouldn't have received it. They quite possibly experienced more difficulties in queues than I did. It may be more challenging for them to leave and return to the queue than it was for me. In some instances, we may have the same exact issues in lines, but theirs are at a greater severity or frequency than mine. For me, accomodations (other than return to line which I've always been able to utilize) weren't necessary, but for them they may have been necessary.

That's why accomodations haven't been and shouldn't be based on diagnosis.