Cloning's affect on attendence

Discussion in 'Disney Rumors and News' started by Douglas Dubh, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Douglas Dubh

    Douglas Dubh True Fiscal Conservative

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    In a recent thread on adding the Indiana Jones ride to the Disney Studios Florida, Raidermatt said, "I'm not a big fan of cloned attractions because I think it just gives people less reason to include more than one Disney destination in their vacation plans over time."

    I've generally agreed with this thinking in the past, but this time it made me wonder. Does Disney really care if we go to more than one Disney destination? I mean, if I spend a week at Disneyland rather than Disney World, it's still a week of giving Disney my money, right?
     
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  3. aesalsa

    aesalsa <font color=deeppink>I'm the one with the hunka hu

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    I agree.
     
  4. randytenn

    randytenn Non-Recovering Disneyholic

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    Until you realize that WDW was a clone of DL from the beginning, as was DLP and TDL. Did that reduce attendance?

    The cloning of attractions has gone on throughout Disney history. But, I don't believe there is an actual "clone" (meaning perfect copy) of any attraction. Each similar attraction has their own charms and distinctions. For example, POTC in WDW doesn't have the waterfall, IASW in WDW doesn't have the wonderful architecture, SM in DL has the great soundtrack, SM in DLP has the slingshot start, etc.

    Making sure that no attraction is a perfect clone keeps each attraction special, and gives one a reason to visit each version.

    I personally believe that the original attractions in DL far exceed the quality of those attractions transfered during the original construction of WDW, mainly because the DL versions were built one at a time (IASW, POTC, HM), thus they were the only large ticket item built at that time. At WDW, they had to recreate the attractions all at once, so some cost cutting was involved.
     
  5. aesalsa

    aesalsa <font color=deeppink>I'm the one with the hunka hu

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    Basically, all of us here so far DO NOT agree with the quote: "I'm not a big fan of cloned attractions because I think it just gives people less reason to include more than one Disney destination in their vacation plans over time."
    The author of this thread did not agree with it and used the quote as a spring board for his/her own ideas on the matter.

    However, thank you for your explaining the subtleties between very similar attractions and cloned ones.:p
     
  6. wtg2000

    wtg2000 DIS Veteran

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    When I read the subject line I thought you were talking about actual cloning! Now, this would help attendence. If I could clone myself I could go to WDW and TDL in the same week. Or, I could send both of me to WDW and have one of me in the stand-by line and one in the Fast Pass. I wonder if the resorts would charge me for the extra person?
     
  7. aesalsa

    aesalsa <font color=deeppink>I'm the one with the hunka hu

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    LOL:rotfl:
     
  8. KNWVIKING

    KNWVIKING DIS Veteran

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    I really enjoyed the Indy ride in DL, but unless it comes to WDW I will probably never ride it again. The same could have been said about Soarin', but low and behold,look what Epcot is getting.I think that's great.

    A great deal of money is spent on R&D for an E-ride. I don't have a problem with Disney getting their monies worth from this R&D to put a clone in another park. As another poster already said, none of the clones are exact twins, they are all have a certain uniqueness.
     
  9. mistermouse

    mistermouse Mouseketeer

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    I never really looked at MK as a clone, or Disney Paris as clone, etc - but that is exactly what they are. Which menas, I love cloning! Clone away, the more the better. The Disney product is soooooo far above the line of great, cloning is actually a great idea. Next trip in 8 days....
     
  10. aesalsa

    aesalsa <font color=deeppink>I'm the one with the hunka hu

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    Y'all have fun, Mistermouse! :wave2: ::MinnieMo:::MickeyMo
     
  11. fan_of_wdw

    fan_of_wdw Mouseketeer

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    BTW, Indy at DLR has been cloned... its called Dinosaur! at AK.
     
  12. Sarangel

    Sarangel <font color=red><font color=navy>Rumor has it ...<

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    I dunno, I think Indy & Dinosaur are very different, even though they use the same ride mechanism... You might as well say that Body Wars and Star Tours are clones, since they also use the same mechanism.

    There's a major difference (in my mind, at least) between re-using a ride mechanism and duplicating a ride, a la Pirates.

    Sarangel
     
  13. raidermatt

    raidermatt Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression

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    First...
    Me too! I thought it was a joke of some kind, but still, I thought it was about human cloning. When I finally open the thread, lo and behold, I find I was the inspiration for the thread! Even though most disagree, its nice to know somebody actually read some of my chicken scratch.

    Now, on to the REAL topic...

    True, but my thoughts were that providing different, unique experiences at different destinations would result in more overall trips to Disney destinations. Many WDW visitors visit very infrequently. So the idea is that if a family visits WDW every 5 years, providing a unique experience at the Disneyland Resort (DLR) might get them to visit DLR in between those 5 years. Example, WDW in 2003, DLR in 2005, WDW in 2008.

    Its the same principle as the Disney Cruise Line. Disney provided a vacation experience different from WDW, not with the intention of having folks substitute the DCL for a WDW trip, but instead add a trip to another Disney destination.

    Now, obviously its a bit more difficult to differentiate one theme park from another than it is to differentiate a theme park from a cruise line, but its the same principle.

    Yes, I do realize that MK is essentially a clone of DL, but that does not change my opinion, for several reasons.

    Back when MK was built, cross-country travel was not as convenient or as common as it is today. I'm sure that the number East Coasters willing to make a trek to the West Coast was much smaller in 1971 than now.

    Using essentially a clone of DL as a base for another resort makes sense, given the immense popularity and now proven lasting appeal of DL.

    Clearly, Disney is (or at least was) trying to develop the idea of having two resort destinations in the U.S., and obviously they would not want people to just switch a couple of days at WDW for a couple of days at DLR.

    By cloning attractions for cost reasons (and lets face it, the primary reason IS cost), they are hurting the chances of the resorts to succeed as standalone vacation destinations that complement, rather than compete, with each other.

    Clearly DCA failed in its objective. Disney's response? Add a nice show, some kiddie rides, and clone three more attractions, ToT, Pooh (at DL) and Playhouse Disney. Nothing to really entice anyone who goes to WDW to visit DLR.

    The population and available travel dollars continue to grow... Disney could get a bigger overall piece of that pie by providing unique experiences at its different resorts.


    Yes, when talking about theme park attractions, there are different degrees of cloning. The DL and WDW versions of Pirates and Pooh are not technically clones, as clones are supposed to be identical, but they are close enough.

    The same ride mechanism and pattern, but with a different story and theme, like Dino and Indy, could be called clones, but I don't really consider them clones. No, its not as unique as say, M:S vs. Space Mountain, but its better than simply cloning, like Soarin' is essentially reported to be.

    As an example, even though the architecture is somewhat different, and a few of the effects are reportedly different, the two ToT's appear to essentially be clones. However, if Disney had used the Tower ride mech, and instead used it as a "Journey to the Center of the Earth", or a "Haunted Mine Shaft", with completely different story elements and themeing, it would have significantly upped the uniqueness factor.
     
  14. KNWVIKING

    KNWVIKING DIS Veteran

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    ***"The population and available travel dollars continue to grow... Disney could get a bigger overall piece of that pie by providing unique experiences at its different resorts."***

    Matt, I understand what you're saying and on the surface the logic makes sense to me, BUT, when I really think about it I come to the conclusion that DL having a great and unique new ride will not entice me to return to DL. Maybe I'm in the minority, maybe the majority believe in "build it and we will come". I had always wanted to visit DL because of its history,not its rides. I got the opportunity, I went, it was great, but I'll never return to CA. with the express purpose of going to DL, ( Redwood Forrest- yes, DL- no).
     
  15. hopemax

    hopemax Note to Self:

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    I look at your profile, and it says you are in NJ. You might not be the market Disney needs to pull to DL. I lived in WA for 25 years. In 1971, which park do you think would be the park I would be most likely to visit? In the past, it had always been DL. But the world has changed, many times we've found it no more expensive to fly to WDW than DL from Seattle. So we stopped visiting DL as much.

    The more DL stuff is brought to WDW, and the more WDW stuff is brought to DL, makes DL less of a draw for people who SHOULD be in DL's market. "Why pay to fly to DL when you can see the same or similar stuff at WDW?"

    Because of DL's small size compared to WDW, this cloning thing is primarily hurting DL. If your focus is, "How does cloning hurt WDW?" the reasons might not be as clear or as strong.
     
  16. wtg2000

    wtg2000 DIS Veteran

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    I drove to DL from Ontario, Canada in 1996 to ride Indy Jones (and see the real Grand Canyon) but I haven't felt compelled to return since. The only thing at DCA that intrigued me was Soarin' and now it's coming to WDW. I did go to Tokyo upon the opening of DisneySea having been there in 1998, and I've been to the new Studios in Paris but that wasn't a special trip. I think the crowd that "resort" hop is very small. Also, cloned rides, like Soarin', already have a buzz around them which helps.
     
  17. KNWVIKING

    KNWVIKING DIS Veteran

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    ***"Because of DL's small size compared to WDW, this cloning thing is primarily hurting DL. If your focus is, "How does cloning hurt WDW?" the reasons might not be as clear or as strong."***

    Kinda makes me wonder if DL will be anything more then a local theme park attraction 10 years or so from now.
     
  18. raidermatt

    raidermatt Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression

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    Hey, that's fine. Its not just about what you or I would do. It doesn't even have to be a majority of the WDW visitors that could be enticed down to DLR for a few days every few years.

    Remember, we're talking about the difference in cost between a clone and a non-clone, compared to how many more people would be drawn by the non-clone. For example, Its Tough to be a Bug was cloned into DLR. Putting in an original attraction, lets say a different 4D movie attraction, would cost more, but the only cost we are concerned about is the difference.

    The question is, over the coming years, would the fact that the attraction is, let's say a Monsters Inc 4D attraction, entice anyone who has seen Bug to visit DLR now that it has a Monsters movie instead of the same Bug movie?

    I think the benefit over time would outweigh the additional cost of making the attraction unique.

    Take it a step further... For the sake of argument, lets assume M:S is a "knock your socks off" attraction, as many on these boards have said it is, and that it is capable of drawing Disney fans back to WDW and Epcot.

    Wouldn't a unique, M:S caliber attraction in DCA also draw Disney fans to DLR? Sure, not all would go to both, but some would.

    This is true... WDW visitors already have unique reasons to go to WDW, and further, they are still getting some unique additions, like M:S, Phil, and E:E.

    Cloning Soarin' into Epcot therefore won't be as much of a problem for WDW, though I still maintain it could be a bigger benefit if it were Soarin' Over Not CA".

    But with it cloned into Epcot, one of the few unique reasons a WDW visitor had for going to DLR is no longer a reason.

    True, one attraction isn't likely to draw a lot of people, but a collection of them will. Instead of building that collection at DLR, they are reducing it by putting Soarin' in Epcot.

    True, but one of the reasons for that is there is very little reason to visit DLR if you've been to WDW. Further, if you've been to DLR, Soarin in Epcot offers zero enticement to visit WDW. The question isn't "how many people visit both resorts now?"... we know that isn't very large. The question is "how many WOULD visit both resorts if the experience were unique?"

    People vacation every year. The idea is to get a once every 5 year WDW visitor to go to DLR instead of going to Hawaii, Canada, New York, whatever, in one of those off years. Also, there's a lot of people who visit SoCal and spend 1 or 2 days at DL. The idea is to get another day or two at DLR.* For somebody who has been to WDW, cloning attractions into DLR isn't going to do any good. (No, that isn't DCA's only problem... just one of them).

    Sure it does, but the buzz would not be hurt if only the ride mech were copied, and everything else were unique. Further, ToT, M:S, etc didn't lack buzz, and they were not cloned.



    *Disclaimer.... I realize that its this kind of Marketing-driven goal that was a big part of the whole problem that is DCA. I do not mean that the goal of adding a day to someone's stay should be the driving force behind Disney's creative decisions. I only mean that those goals are the business justification for letting the creative folks do their job and go about the business of creating. Hopefully, the distinction is clear.
     
  19. hopemax

    hopemax Note to Self:

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    Some would say it's already there.

    And the sadest thing is that it could have been preventable. Pressler's park philosophies really were damaging. I'm sure you read Scoop's Trip Report for DL, visitors can sense that something is not well, even if some are unable to articulate why.

    If Disney wants DL to be something different than a local park, cloning will not help. They can't let WDW get DL's stuff, and DL's can't accept WDW's stuff without serious "plussing." DL has to be different in as many ways as possible.
     
  20. raidermatt

    raidermatt Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression

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    That is up to Disney...
     
  21. KNWVIKING

    KNWVIKING DIS Veteran

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    ***"Remember, we're talking about the difference in cost between a clone and a non-clone, compared to how many more people would be drawn by the non-clone. For example, Its Tough to be a Bug was cloned into DLR. Putting in an original attraction, lets say a different 4D movie attraction, would cost more, but the only cost we are concerned about is the difference."***

    I agree. In another thread I was asking if anyone knew what the cost of just the film portion of Soarin' was. Rather then make it an exact clone, how much more would it cost to film a Soarin' over Something ?

    ***"The question is, over the coming years, would the fact that the attraction is, let's say a Monsters Inc 4D attraction, entice anyone who has seen Bug to visit DLR now that it has a Monsters movie instead of the same Bug movie?"***

    Tough question. I think DL would have a hard time enticing people back into DL who have been to both parks simply because WDW has SOOO much to offer. And not just WDW, but the surrounding area. When we stayed at DL we rented a car. We drove up to US Hollywood. What a PITA ! I can leave WDW and be in USF in less then 10 minutes. Just so many options are easily availible in Central Fl. Hopefully your idea/theory would get West coasters back into the park or even the central USA crowd who are undecided which way to go.
     

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