Additional Cuts to WDW Hours

[Walt's Frozen Head]

To a certain extent, in a certain sense, I've got to come to 'Scoop's defense, here.

All he has done is made his own value judgement, based on what the parks mean to his vacation in Disney World.

He does not remember having to stand in line for Pirates out past the parrot... yet feeling completely rewarded for it; not being able to wait, that intervening 357 days, until you got the chance to do it again.

I'm a person who wouldn't mind paying extra, including the extra extra of having to stay on-site to qualify, for E-nights or Early Entry or whatever, if they were giving me the same kind of effort and creativity as was put into Pirates, but with the materials, techniques, and technologies of this here millenium. That's the place I have to kick 'Scoop to the curb... there was something in many of the old attractions, that just isn't present in many of the new ones (it might be impossible to quantify, but I really don't think it can be denied); I don't feel WDW is giving my money's worth, anymore.

It is particularly onerous that these things keep happening well after quite a few folks have paid their money and made their plans. Yes, yes, I know it says "hours subject to change," and I know it's wartime, but Disney has been doing this as SOP since at least June of 2001, well before Hussein and Iraq, I mean bin Laden and al Qaeda, dusted TriBeCa.

Travel is down... so Disney gives people less reason to visit, soon; and aggravates a certain number of particularly dedicated guests who had the bulk of these vacations planned three months ago.

I've heard people try to justify these kinds of cuts from a business perspective... I still don't see how it's supposed to pay off in any meaningful way.

-WFH

 

[wdw4us2]

I've got to go with Matt's views on this one, although we were stupid enough to try an E-night during the first month they were offered. Afterward, I swore we'd never do it again and we haven't. I'm of the "Why pay for something that used to be free" school of thought.

While I appreciate all the debate that goes on here regarding the hour cuts, I still feel that the only way we'll get any action is to make our feelings known to corporate Disney by writing and emailing them with our dissatisfaction.

Hey, it worked for EE/Extra Magic Hour!

 

[raidermatt]

Matt, you talk as if you are personal friends with some guy named "Average Guest". You don't know and nor do I. We can both guess and speculate but neither of us know. I'd hesitate to say what the "average guest" would do when neither you nor I (nor most regular posters on this board) in fact hardly represent the "average guest".

I never said or even hinted I knew exactly what the average guest is like. However, I did say that the average guest cares more about the parks, and I offered up reasons which you ignored.

Are you honestly saying that you could slap a $50 price tag on any of the various activities you have mentioned and draw 7 million guests per year?

Have you watched the planning video, souvenir video, or commercials? If not, I'll be happy to time the components and tell you how much time is spent on the parks vs. Fantasia Gardens and the Adventurers' Club.

That is my only assertion with regard to the average guest. Not that they don't care about the "other stuff". I'm sure they do, and probably even more than in the past. But all you have to do is look at the prices to tell you what is in greater demand. That's not a knock on anyone who personally goes against what the "average" guest does, because after all, we all do in some way.

That is important because there is a big difference, imo, between cutting hours that were full of guests and cutting hours that had only a very small slice of guests.

Sure, cutting hours at 3pm would have a bigger negative impact than cutting them at 8pm. And you're right, its impossible to absolutely prove a correlation between any decision and the movements in attendance. However, not being able to document the correlation has no bearing on whether the correlation exists.

p.s. DCL, Vero, and HHI do just fine without having parks attached.

How you turn "The parks are the main drawing card at WDW" into "Everything must have a park to be successful" is beyond me.

Those examples do nothing to prove your position that the parks are not the most valuable entities within WDW.

I'm a person who wouldn't mind paying extra, including the extra extra of having to stay on-site to qualify, for E-nights or Early Entry or whatever...

This is not the piece I am questioning. I'm not blaming Scoop for attending Enights. Each family has to make the best choice for themselves based on what IS available. Further, I have no quibble with Enights that begin at 11pm or Midnight, or with EE, or even the "Discovery Cove" concept.

Adding something and charging a fee is one thing. It probably makes sense in some cases, not others. But taking things away and adding a fee is another kettle of fish all together. That's what this really all boils down to...

 

[All Aboard]

Some personal thoughts.

Last year I decided not to take any spring WDW trips. The hours were reduced and reports indicated heavy crowds. This year, I went back against that decision this past weekend. I thought it might be somewhat light based on the general room availability at the late date that I booked. The FL resident rates were higher than last year ($79 v. $59 for the values) but I decided to give it a go. What I encountered was an amazing crowd situation which was worsened by the reduced hours and "value season" scheduling of parades and fireworks. My mistake for electing to spend time at MK. Even Extra Magic Hour was virtually worthless the way I planned it. We arrived at 8:05 and headed straight for Space Mountain. We came out the other side at 8:50, and so ended Extra Magic Hour for the most part. I'm not faulting Disney for that, it's just an indication of how crowded things were this weekend.

Bottom Line: WDW has me for a week long January trip, and long weekends in early May, Memorial, Labor, late Sep, Oct, Nov, & Dec. The variable for me is whether or not I travel in the spring. This past weekend sealed the fact that I will not be travelling in the spring of 2004. I'm wondering if any other guests were turned off by their experience this past weekend. I'm not complaining about the crowds, just WDW's hours. Closing MK at 7:00pm in peak season with huge crowds just plain stinks.

Also, on the planning video (since it was brought up in this thread). Get the DVD version, it's great. To any of those newbies on this board that think I'm anti-Disney, I spent an hour and a half watching and rewatching parts of the planning video, the planning video for heaven's sake! It's a sickness, I will admit. The special features include an interactive map and 5 featurettes on attractions. Watch the one on Pirates, there's a weenie in there that's priceless.

 

[airlarry!]

If the extra three hours from 7-11 is worth $12, then why have tickets increased x$ from 1999 through 2003 even though hours have been cut?

And why is my memory telling me that the cut in hours started long before Iraq, 9/11 and the economy gave Burbank an excuse? Any help on this?

 

[HB2K]

Here's a couple of questions...

Heck, I'd love to see Disney build an entire controlled access park, as SeaWorld did with Discovery Cove.

What if they turned Magic Kingdom into this controlled access park? That's more of a similarity to the E*Nights vs reduction of hours arguement.

Also, if you're willing to pay extra and it's acceptable for Disney to reduce hours for an E*Night just so you can avoid the lines, are you also saying it's acceptable for Disney to offer a premium fast pass which will let you skip the lines?

 

[d-r]

Hi-

Scoop did pretty much explain why I like e-nights - thanks, Scoop.

But I would add something to it. I guess we've done four e-nights, more or less, not entirely sure. Mostly they have been really great and empty; one was a little crowded and uncomfortable in tommorrowland.

But anyway, what I wanted to say is that I am a big fan of the "later e-night." I think the earlier ones get too full with parents of younger kids, whereas the later ones have cleared out more.

I want to say this clearly. When I was a kid growing up in Florida I wouldn't have liked this e-night thing because it would have cut me out, I would have preferred as many hours of general open in the parks as possible. And yes, I remember quite well that the 2nd best time in the parks was after the fireworks (the best time being the moment that the gates opened).

Now, I'm not a kid in Florida, I'm a grown up who lives in Michigan. I only have so many days that I can go to wdw. Most of the cost is in the room and flight, etc., and 12$ for a few extra hours that are limited in crowd size is completely worth it. If I was at home this would be the price of a movie, and I probably only get 14-20 days at wdw a year. So it is a great buy for me. I really like and appreciate the controlled access.

Now let me be crystal clear though. I'm not saying that I prefer shorter hours. I don't. I remember wlv last May when the MK closed at 6 every day. Well, that took something away from having that handy boat to MK. Sure, I noticed that a lot of families were enjoying the resort, swimming, etc., and we enjoyed that time, too. But the hours were too short. We realized that we'd rather stay during the week at bwv because the parks are open a few hours longer. That said, one e-night open until 9 would have made a lot of difference that week!

When I said I was excited about e-night returning, and hopeful that they would have one when we went in May, I wasn't saying that I prefered an early e-night and earlier closing times - I don't, I prefer a later one. But I greatly prefer an e-night over a no e-night, and, that is really what the contest will be during the off-season times that we go (in the first week of May, they aren't going to have midnight closing times at MK during the week no matter what. So the possibility of an E-night is very exciting). I've argued here before that I think it is a mistake to take e-night from the off-season times and keep it only during peak times. So, in this way, we are really talking about two different species of e-night - and I really hope that there is the possibility of an e-night in May. I think that there has not been one during our last three or four trips (Jan 03, Sept 02, May 02, Jan 02, Sept 01 - I think May 01 was the last time I was able to go to an e-night).

So Gcurling telling that there was an e-night was a positive sign for me! But, truthfully, I remaini pessimistic about the chances for an e-night in May.

DR

 

[raidermatt]

I'm not saying that I prefer shorter hours. I don't.

That's really all anybody is saying. Whether each individual purchases Enights is based on what's best for them based on the available options. You can be against the concept of Enights, but still purchase one. One won't get their point across to management this way, but if their lucky, others who have different circumstances and don't use enights, or even skip WDW entirely, might eventually get the point across.

, truthfully, I remaini pessimistic about the chances for an e-night in May.

I would agree with this statement. They cancelled them for last May, so having them this year, with what are likely to be shorter hours and supposedly lower attendance, would be highly questionable.

That is not my position. You know that.

Feel free not to respond, Scoop, but I am going to explain my statements.

I said:

There's nothing wrong with the "other things" in the World, and there's nothing wrong with anyone finding these the most enjoyable parts of their vacation. But its clearly not what the average guest values most.

Clearly (to me at least), my implication was that the parks ARE what the average guest values most.

You then made this statement about my use of "Average Guest".

...Matt, you talk as if you are personal friends with some guy named "Average Guest". You don't know and nor do I. We can both guess and speculate but neither of us know. I'd hesitate to say what the "average guest" would do when neither you nor I (nor most regular posters on this board) in fact hardly represent the "average guest".

You then said this:

Now, if you're willing to remove your throne and talk about what the Raidermatt's like or what some others around here do then that's another story. But, the fact is that in the "olden days" when the parks stayed open late, there were hardly the evening/night options there are today.

I never said there weren't more options, and I even said DVC'ers and possibly a higher percentage of guests take advantage of these options.

I merely stated that despite that, the parks remain the biggest draw and have the greatest value. If you weren't disputing that, I can't for the life of me figure out what you WERE disputing. (Granted, it may just be my sometimes high level of "densitude")

Providing these other options does not remove the sting of shorter park hours for the average guest. Even a guest who leaves the parks early feels the shorter hours, since everyone is squeezed into a shorter window.

 

[Bob O]

This is just part of eisners scheme to reduce park hours and then get his minions to pay for something which was once free to EVERYONE!!!!
And the sad thing is that it apparently is working with some people whoy buy the disney line that they are cutting the hours of the parks for OUR benefit so we have more time to spend money playing mini golf/shopping at DTD/PI etc.
So now Enights are looked at as great when at one time they would have been looked at as a reduction of the magic that wdw is!!! Im just glad i have memories of the good old days when one could enjoy disney into the wee hours of the morning and not have to pay additional money for that privilege.

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt
That's really all anybody is saying. Whether each individual purchases Enights is based on what's best for them based on the available options. You can be against the concept of Enights, but still purchase one. One won't get their point across to management this way, but if their lucky, others who have different circumstances and don't use enights, or even skip WDW entirely, might eventually get the point across.

Thank you, Matt, for summing that up for me. It isn't that I'm gullible or a "minion," but I realistically KNOW that hours are going to be shorter in May, so the opportunity for an e-night, with the controlled access and shorter lines, becomes very appealing for me. E-nights can be very pleasant and special times, and I miss the opportunity to experience them.

HB2K - I have been thinking about your "premium fastpass" question for some time. I can see many points of view on that one.

First, let me say that this past weekend at Tokyo Disney, honestly, I would have gladly jumped at the chance to buy one for at least $10,000 yen! (and a 2-day ticket costs $9600 yen). That's because I don't get many opportunities to go to the Tokyo parks. I also realize that there are many, many people who make once in a lifetime trips to walt disney world, and they would probably likewise jump at the chance to purchase such a pass - it might be a truly wonderful thing for them!

Now, from the perspective of a kid in Florida, I would have hated it, especially in terms of how I imagine they would implement it. It is difficult for me to imagine that this would not have an impact on the standby lines and the availability of walk-up fast passes. This is the place where they would have to be very careful. The ones at universal that you get for staying in the resort, or that you can just pay cash for (do they still have that?) don't seem to anger local guests, but then there are fewer hotel rooms per park there.

As an (albeit fairly frequent) vacationer from the north, I have mixed feelings. My fear is that they would tie it in with packages through WDTC. Even if we didn't have dvc points, we probably wouldn't go with WDTC packages, and I don't think the pass would be enough to push us over the hill on that; when we went to disneyland Ca. a couple of years ago, packages through wdtc came with two or three "blank" fastpasses that you could use anywhere at anytime. However, we still chose not to go with the package, because the rates were so much better to just go ala carte (in fact, our next trip to Disneyland Ca we will probably just stay at a good neighbor hotel). At wdw, it wouldn't convince us to get a package either, even if we didn't have DVC points.

I'm not going to argue that it wouldn't be fair to dvc members, etc. for them to offer them only through wdtc packages. The ultimate point there is that anybody who thought they were worth enough could book that package that way. But that price would be too high for me. That said, from this Michigan tourist perspective, I wouldn't mind if they offered a limited number of these to package guests - I would think "more power to them" if people chose to book the package.

If they did offer it, from any of the perspectives that I can think of, I think it is best for the guests that they offer a limited number for cash to anyone who wants to pay it. The price would have to walk that fine line between low enough for people to afford and want to buy it, and high enough that it would be rare; if they were free, the fast pass line would just be the stand by line. But the point is, that way a young couple honeymooning from Japan could buy one no matter where they are staying or what package they buy. Some kids from Florida on day trips could decide to save up some money for a "special day" and buy one, even though most of the time they wouldn't. Coming from Michigan, I could imagine us buying them for one day of our trip, and when we planned we'd think of that day as a special day we are spending at the MK. There are some days when I wouldn't at all mind the opportunity to buy such a thing. There are days that it would definitely pass my cost-benefit ratio test for buying it. I honestly think that, if they were going to implement this system, this would be the best way to do it for all guests.

All of this is from the point of view of guests experiencing the day, not from a philosophical/political point of view. This really wouldn't bother me from a "fairness" or "WWWD" or "tradition" or a "class" point of view. Heck, we all pay for a park ticket up front. Or we choose not to and not to go. This is the same sort of thing, and it reminds me of the old ticket books. If it is worth it to someone to pay for it, fine, if not, fine.

I don't believe that a pay-as-you-go system is how they would implement it, though, or if it is what would be seen as the best for the bottom line of the company. Again, I think that they would use it to push for WDTC packages.

DR

 

[manning]

While I appreciate all the debate that goes on here regarding the hour cuts, I still feel that the only way we'll get any action is to make our feelings known to corporate Disney by writing and emailing them with our dissatisfaction.

Better yet, vote with your feet!! Go somewhere else more often.