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Old 08-14-2014, 11:40 AM   #61
wallrock
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
I've had very "spirited discussions" about this very thing on this board for 3 years...

The Disney "stalwarts"... Shall we say...swear that there is no favorable financial arrangements on this project...

Shenanigans...that was the ONLY way this ever made sense.

From accounts it seems that Cameron has been going door to door around Hollywood peddling this IP for decades...and even after he managed to cgi his way to a billion dollar box office - he still can't get people lining up to take it further...

That is impossible in today's Hollywood climate. They green lit a ninja turtles sequel on a terrible movie 5 days after release...

I thinks that Cameron is financing up front cost, long term cost (what Disney is really after), concessions on marketing, or leasing the IP for free...

Perhaps a combination of all of the above.

Disney knows when they've got a marketable product...they paid 6 billion for the Skywalker and Indiana Jones...

Avatar is NOT that product...there is no loyal fanbase or conventioneers to speak of...there are no lucrative merchandise tie ins.

Disney is "allowing" construction in a lagging park...but they are not gonna do it with exploiting the weaknesses of the avatar product...don't be fooled.

The potential is that the IP can integrate very well with animal kingdom (I'm not disputing that)...
But it's a weak franchise (that's not even an accurate description based on ZERO staying power) and the cash registers aren't going to ring away.

No dispute with the comments above. I also wonder if Comcast/Universal decided to pass because of the insane cost of Terminator 2 3D. Cameron basically stepped in, took over the whole project and spent a ton (I believe around 60 million - insane even today and unheard of in the mid-1990s), but then again Cameron isn't known for being frugal with the dollars. I'm sure that also contributed to Disney telling him to cough up if he wanted the project to go ahead.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:46 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic

if you believe jim hill...this has already been "green lit"

i'm gonna write a treatment for a book and submit it to Hyperion...

anyone read the book "Disney Mountains: Imagineering at its Peak"?
(i'm guessing quite a few here have)

I'm gonna write an homage to spinners and call it one of two working titles:

"The Disney Spinners: Ehhh...Whatever"

or

"The Disney Spinners: Imagineering the Wildwood, NJ Way"
(second is a tribute to the bold move of installing not one...but TWO spinners in 2002 during a crushing change/halt to travel patterns - Magic Carpets and Triceratop Spin - Thanks, Mikey, Al)

what do ya think?
I just threw it out there because this is something easy to theme and kids love it. Also that park is lacking in rides for munchkins.
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Originally Posted by wallrock

7) A Darth Vader ice cream bar

8) A Star Wars themed bathroom, known as 'The Death Star Throne Room'
Lol. I'd so use that restroom.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:47 AM   #63
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It would be great if you're right. But, it would be a strategic shift for them to have 2 major construction projects running concurrently. It would also mean just a 12 month period between openings. You would expect they would want at least a 2 year spread between openings so as not to dilute the buzz and uplift from the Pandora Grand Opening. That also assumes that SW will be more than just retrofits of existing infrastructure and truly a "dirt moving" Project. A lot still to learn on this.....
First off - they do in fact have two major construction projects going at once. Disney Springs and Pandora. Part of my thoughts is that the Star Wars construction will be starting as that one is winding down in late 2015.

Second - Isn't Pandora opening in 2016? I said SW is 2018. That would be in fact 2 years apart.

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I'll agree that Carsland is impressive, but I wouldn't put New Fantasyland into that category. It's nice, but no where near 'best theming that Disney's ever done'.
I'm not talking about the quality of the rides in New FL, as at best they put in a couple of C-tickets. I'm talking about the quality behind the design/construction. Be Our Guest is probably the most elaborately themed restaurant Disney has ever install. The outside of it is amazing. The area for Gaston's Tavern, a stupid little quick-serve stand. Even the Tangled Pottys our stunning. How many other Disney bathrooms have people pulling their cameras out for?

Now, Storybook Circus, that's less than impressive.

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Recent history is my prime concern...

And with all due respect...fantasyland - now that I've taken a couple of spins on the dwarf coaster (still trying to figure out what's "innovative" about the design)...is basically an elaborate overhaul that the OLD Disney could have completed in 2 years flat...lets not BS.
Look, Fantasyland is an area for the KIDS. People want them to have built the next cutting edge theme park ride, but that's not what they are going for. They are going for pleasing the under-10 set. And in doing that they succeeded. There's a lot of raking them over the coals for it by people here, but that is what they set out to do. I didn't say it was "Innovative" (though I know Disney sold us on those mine cars rocking back and forth, but did you really believe that for a second?) I said that the QUALITY level of it all was extremely high. Much higher than any other area in the rest of Magic Kingdom.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:06 PM   #64
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I'm not talking about the quality of the rides in New FL, as at best they put in a couple of C-tickets. I'm talking about the quality behind the design/construction. Be Our Guest is probably the most elaborately themed restaurant Disney has ever install. The outside of it is amazing. The area for Gaston's Tavern, a stupid little quick-serve stand. Even the Tangled Pottys our stunning. How many other Disney bathrooms have people pulling their cameras out for?

Now, Storybook Circus, that's less than impressive.
So we're now singing praises for bathrooms? When I'm spending thousands of dollars on a vacation I could care less about the theme of the little room that I do my business in. For me I'd rather Disney invest that money into either a new attraction or maintenance on an existing one, but to each his own I suppose.

I haven't dined yet at Be Our Guest so I can't offer up an opinion there, but from the photos I've seen and the experiences I've heard people seem to be genuinely happy. If they are then no complaints there. My only thought is that Be Our Guest could have been put into Downtown Disney (i.e. a place people can enter for free) instead of putting into a park and basically having a themed place to eat that has a hundred dollar cover charge.

As far as quality of construction...Epcot done thirty-plus years ago blows the top off of New Fantasyland, and I'm not talking about scope or size. The detail behind the attractions in Future World set a bar that even today I don't think Disney has surpassed. Yes technology has gotten better, but nowhere has Disney taken advantage of technology (MDE notwithstanding) the way they did back in 1982.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:48 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by wallrock View Post
So we're now singing praises for bathrooms? When I'm spending thousands of dollars on a vacation I could care less about the theme of the little room that I do my business in. For me I'd rather Disney invest that money into either a new attraction or maintenance on an existing one, but to each his own I suppose.

I haven't dined yet at Be Our Guest so I can't offer up an opinion there, but from the photos I've seen and the experiences I've heard people seem to be genuinely happy. If they are then no complaints there. My only thought is that Be Our Guest could have been put into Downtown Disney (i.e. a place people can enter for free) instead of putting into a park and basically having a themed place to eat that has a hundred dollar cover charge.

As far as quality of construction...Epcot done thirty-plus years ago blows the top off of New Fantasyland, and I'm not talking about scope or size. The detail behind the attractions in Future World set a bar that even today I don't think Disney has surpassed. Yes technology has gotten better, but nowhere has Disney taken advantage of technology (MDE notwithstanding) the way they did back in 1982.
I think maybe we are missing eachothers points or something. I am not talking about the technology of New Fantasyland, which outside of a magic mirror in Belle's Cottage is not anything special at all. I'm talking about the quality level of design and theming. Sure I'm singing the praises of a bathroom. Using a bathroom is part of the theme park experience. You may argue, "screw bathrooms" but I disagree. Is all that matters that they put up a nice bathroom, certainly not. But it again speaks to the quality level that was put into design/construction of newer experiences. If all you want is e-ticket thrill rides, well, you are certainly better off heading over to Universal.

You're kind of losing me arguing against them putting a highly themed dining venue into MK. Last I checked there's about 25 of them scattered across the theme parks. World Showcase is made up almost entirely of themed eateries and shops, and I don't hear too many complaints about that. Are you suggesting that people in theme parks shouldn't want to eat in an entertaining atmosphere? Or that all restaurants in theme parks should be open to the general public?

I would like to suggest there should be MORE restaurants of that level of quality and theming at WDW. If you give me a QS restaurant like Cosmic Rays or Peco's Bills, that does very little to add to the entertainment value of my park experience. But if you give me more like BoG, well, I don't mind paying for a $15 sandwich. (I still want the food to be good, though.)

Getting back to the original topic, I will certainly not be MAD if one of the "attractions" of New Starwarsland is a Cantina-Themed restaurant (or other star wars theme, but I can't think of a better Star Wars theme concept restaurant than that one). I would value that experience ten times above eating at the Backlot Express, or ABC Commissary whose theming is "look I'm a crappy TV studio cafeteria".
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:44 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by skier_pete View Post
First off - they do in fact have two major construction projects going at once. Disney Springs and Pandora. Part of my thoughts is that the Star Wars construction will be starting as that one is winding down in late 2015.

Second - Isn't Pandora opening in 2016? I said SW is 2018. That would be in fact 2 years apart.
2017 for Pandora - before the delays, unless something's changed. but we're in the 2nd half of 2014 and the site is just cleared.

Disney Springs is a mall - a pretty mall, but I don't think it's stretching Imagineering too thin and is different than 2 major Parks projects in so many ways.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:38 PM   #67
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I believe that disney will do something spectacular with Star Wars at Hollywood studios. Hopefully they can time I to ride the wave of the new movie coming out. This is what I'd like to see:

Recreate tatooine (sp?) including cantina band live performance

Pod race themed attraction

Ewok village play area for kids (could replace honey I shrunk the kid play area)

Hmmm What else?
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:20 PM   #68
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Using a bathroom is part of the theme park experience.
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on the above topic.

Regarding the dining. Your point more or less reinforces what I was thinking; that there are already numerous places within the parks to dine, some unique while others serve up a plate of food. My concern about Be Our Guest is that it's something that could have been placed in a more public venue and the space could have instead been used for an attraction (or two). To your earlier point I'm not necessarily looking for the E-ticket type rides (meaning shoot me around at hundred miles per hour), but I am looking for something to experience that I don't have to pay for twice. Traditionally - mainly before World Showcase - the eateries took a back seat to the attractions (yes there were exceptions), and they were something that supplemented you during your visit. Now they are considered attractions themselves, and they come with a price just to get in. Look at Animal Kingdom and the Rainforest Cafe. You can enter the restaurant without having to buy a park ticket. Sadly I feel that experiences like that are a thing of the past.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:07 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by wallrock View Post
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on the above topic.

Regarding the dining. Your point more or less reinforces what I was thinking; that there are already numerous places within the parks to dine, some unique while others serve up a plate of food. My concern about Be Our Guest is that it's something that could have been placed in a more public venue and the space could have instead been used for an attraction (or two). To your earlier point I'm not necessarily looking for the E-ticket type rides (meaning shoot me around at hundred miles per hour), but I am looking for something to experience that I don't have to pay for twice. Traditionally - mainly before World Showcase - the eateries took a back seat to the attractions (yes there were exceptions), and they were something that supplemented you during your visit. Now they are considered attractions themselves, and they come with a price just to get in. Look at Animal Kingdom and the Rainforest Cafe. You can enter the restaurant without having to buy a park ticket. Sadly I feel that experiences like that are a thing of the past.
I pay to get into the park for the Theming, to include eateries. Choosing my ADRs is one of the most exciting parts of planning my trip. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good attraction, but it honestly is not what makes WDW worth my money. There are a plethora of eateries I won't step foot in, because they aren't worth my time due to a lack of theming, poor food, or a combination of both.

I don't even think about "paying twice" for these things, such is the benefit of the DDP. I have actually gone into the park and just dined, nothing else on several occasions. I think it is kind of a to each their own, I do believe more and better attractions are important, but I wouldn't want them to sacrifice theming even a bathroom to put in more things to do. I think leaving out BOG and instead putting in one or even two more attractions would have been an enormous mistake.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:22 PM   #70
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I pay to get into the park for the Theming, to include eateries. Choosing my ADRs is one of the most exciting parts of planning my trip. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good attraction, but it honestly is not what makes WDW worth my money. There are a plethora of eateries I won't step foot in, because they aren't worth my time due to a lack of theming, poor food, or a combination of both.

I don't even think about "paying twice" for these things, such is the benefit of the DDP. I have actually gone into the park and just dined, nothing else on several occasions. I think it is kind of a to each their own, I do believe more and better attractions are important, but I wouldn't want them to sacrifice theming even a bathroom to put in more things to do. I think leaving out BOG and instead putting in one or even two more attractions would have been an enormous mistake.
You are paying for your disney dining plan...and it's not such a "deal"

I'm a longtime observer/eater in wdw...any line over 10 minutes is a "pass"...
But I can't argue the point that you shouldn't necessarily have to pay ridiculous food costs in addition to $100 a day to get too the restaurant for a proper "experience"
That is BS.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:41 AM   #71
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Star Wars expansion cannot happen fast enough!
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:14 PM   #72
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2017 for Pandora - before the delays, unless something's changed. but we're in the 2nd half of 2014 and the site is just cleared.

Disney Springs is a mall - a pretty mall, but I don't think it's stretching Imagineering too thin and is different than 2 major Parks projects in so many ways.
OK - if Pandora is 2017, then you are probably right - Star Wars won't be until 2019. I agree they will probably want to spread it out a bit.

However, I will disagree that there is little imagineering involved in what they are doing at DTD. I'm sure it's quite extensive. Is it on the level of Pandora? Probably not, but it's at least 50 % of it.

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Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on the above topic.

Regarding the dining. Your point more or less reinforces what I was thinking; that there are already numerous places within the parks to dine, some unique while others serve up a plate of food.
Maybe you don't understand why they do something like FLE or Pandora, or Starwarsland. It's to increase the capacity (i.e. # of people) in the parks. By putting in dueling dumbos, little mermaid, Belle's cottage, the princess M&G and 7DMC (and admittedly removing SWA), they are expecting to increase the capacity of Magic Kingdom by probably 2,000-5,000 people. In doing so, that means they have to increase the # of places where they eat, and yes, even the number of toilets. Do you notice that you (typically) don't ever have to wait in line for a bathroom at MK? Do you ever think about why?

Dining - on the other hand, well at mealtimes, there are lines almost everywhere in MK. And sure people are waiting in line for Be Our Guest...so you know what, that's drawing people away from the other eateries. Shorter lines overall are a win for Disney. People waiting in line don't spend money. That's doesn't just apply to rides. They HAD to add dining capacity to MK when they expanded. They could've as easily said, "Gee, let's just slap some more counters on Pinocchio Village House. People eat there all the time, there's always a line!" But they didn't. They put in a dining location that has QS meals for lunch and actual reasonably priced fine dining for dinner. It's extremely popular not just because it's new, but because people really enjoy it.

This is what my point was, they didn't do Fantasyland as a "what's the minimum we could do to expand capacity", they did it all up right.
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:48 PM   #73
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Maybe you don't understand why they do something like FLE or Pandora, or Starwarsland. It's to increase the capacity (i.e. # of people) in the parks. By putting in dueling dumbos, little mermaid, Belle's cottage, the princess M&G and 7DMC (and admittedly removing SWA), they are expecting to increase the capacity of Magic Kingdom by probably 2,000-5,000 people. In doing so, that means they have to increase the # of places where they eat, and yes, even the number of toilets. Do you notice that you (typically) don't ever have to wait in line for a bathroom at MK? Do you ever think about why?

Dining - on the other hand, well at mealtimes, there are lines almost everywhere in MK. And sure people are waiting in line for Be Our Guest...so you know what, that's drawing people away from the other eateries. Shorter lines overall are a win for Disney. People waiting in line don't spend money. That's doesn't just apply to rides. They HAD to add dining capacity to MK when they expanded. They could've as easily said, "Gee, let's just slap some more counters on Pinocchio Village House. People eat there all the time, there's always a line!" But they didn't. They put in a dining location that has QS meals for lunch and actual reasonably priced fine dining for dinner. It's extremely popular not just because it's new, but because people really enjoy it.

This is what my point was, they didn't do Fantasyland as a "what's the minimum we could do to expand capacity", they did it all up right.
I perfectly understand the logistics of why Disney did what they did, but it doesn't mean that I agree with it. And your original comments weren't addressing the merits of why Disney put in the Fantasyland expansion, but rather how awesome the themed bathrooms looked, the quality behind design/construction of the area, and that the amount of effort that Disney will put into Star Wars in the park (a summary more or less of your words). My counter to your comment was, and still is, that I don't think Disney will do as much with Star Wars in Orlando as people think and that the Fantasyland expansion is not what I would call a highlight in the evolution of the Orlando campus. As far as lines of people waiting to eat in the Magic Kingdom, I've been there at widely different times of the year and have yet to wait more than ten minutes to procure lunch or dinner. Granted I generally don't go for places like Be Our Guest, mainly because I have no desire to plan my meals two months or more in advance. Again to each his own.

If you're happy with what the powers that be have provided, then go forth and enjoy. As for myself, seeing the prices on everything rise every year and not seeing that extra revenue go to things more substantial than what they've produced in the last 15 or so years is an axe that I'll continue to grind.
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:06 PM   #74
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You are paying for your disney dining plan...and it's not such a "deal"

I'm a longtime observer/eater in wdw...any line over 10 minutes is a "pass"...
But I can't argue the point that you shouldn't necessarily have to pay ridiculous food costs in addition to $100 a day to get too the restaurant for a proper "experience"
That is BS.
First, I have to say I love reading lockedoutlogic's post. I find them as entertaining as they are insightful. But, on this point I'm failing to follow the logic. Agreed the dining plan is not such a deal, but I don't think you can say anyone is paying a $100 cover just to eat at the restaurant. Maybe $30 for a park hopper. The magic of WDW is the immersive experience of being in another fantasy world for a little while. BOG and Cinderella' Royal Table accomplish that by being able to eat is a "real" princess castle (yes, elaborately themed restrooms also contribute to the experience). The quality of the food is never going to convince anyone to eat there let alone pay extra for park admission.

If I recall correctly, a while back in another thread, lockedoutlogic was dismayed about being unable to get ADR at Citricos despite staying at the Grand Floridian, so that made it less than a 5 star resort / hotel. My question is, how is park admission at BOG any different than a restaurant in an elite exclusive resort catering to its clientele?
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:47 PM   #75
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First, I have to say I love reading lockedoutlogic's post. I find them as entertaining as they are insightful. But, on this point I'm failing to follow the logic. Agreed the dining plan is not such a deal, but I don't think you can say anyone is paying a $100 cover just to eat at the restaurant. Maybe $30 for a park hopper. The magic of WDW is the immersive experience of being in another fantasy world for a little while. BOG and Cinderella' Royal Table accomplish that by being able to eat is a "real" princess castle (yes, elaborately themed restrooms also contribute to the experience). The quality of the food is never going to convince anyone to eat there let alone pay extra for park admission.

If I recall correctly, a while back in another thread, lockedoutlogic was dismayed about being unable to get ADR at Citricos despite staying at the Grand Floridian, so that made it less than a 5 star resort / hotel. My question is, how is park admission at BOG any different than a restaurant in an elite exclusive resort catering to its clientele?
I'm not making a hard line stance...though it came off that way

What I'm saying is that I can see the validity in saying that you shouldn't have to pay an exhorbinant price for food to "complete the experience" because that's where Disney "chooses to put the theming"

I do that constantly...I pay for the pass and go and pay for the restaurants - sans dining plan (which is close to extortion in many locations)...so I'm not saying I don't feed the monster.

I just can see the valid argument on the other side.

But you shouldn't have to commit to paying for "up charges" into the sit down restaurants to "get the value" out of a $100 ticket.

The premise I commented on was that Disney is "rewarding " their ticket paying customers with new elaborate dining.
They are extorting them - in fact. It's all up charge. It's not a matter of "grabbing a bite" or "everyone's got to eat"

Bottomline: don't credit them for "investing" in restaurants...those are premium pay locations. They still...need to put far more money into things INCLUDED in the days gate fee. They have strangled that off compared to the past history of investment.

Restaurants, bibbiddi bobbity, and hard ticket events for $75 are not "thanking the fans"...
Quite the opposite.

The praise was also lauded for downtown Disney...
Who the heck does that serve? They closed a guest area due to not wanting to pay operational costs (pleasure island)...let it sit...and now are throwing a bigger mall ontop of it.

That really makes me all warm and fuzzy
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Went there.....
Worked there....(Resort Operations)
Wed there....(EPCOT 2004)
Bought there....(SSR 2006)

Last Trip: Too Long Ago
Next Trip: Can i borrow some money to go?
Gift Shop Quality: When did we get to WalMart?
Food Quality: Only the finest free range roast chicken breast and loch dart salmon in the Kingdom


"May the Space Being bless the Free Market"
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