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Old 03-10-2014, 02:56 PM   #286
kaytieeldr
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Originally Posted by Tramp68 View Post
Statistics and probabilities. Statistics and probabilities need to be basedon fact,not some guesses pulled out of the air. All of the information in this debate Conversation is hypothetical. None of it is based on fact. Yet you continue to post numbers, estimates, percentages, and potentials as if they were fact, without any indication until now that said numbers are, in fact, made up. I can't prove that a smoker will still come to Disney any more than you can prove that they won't. Without any supporting information except the percent of US adult smokers, claims that only 0.0905% of Disney's business would be affected are as baseless as claims that 16,000 or even 1,600 people are avoiding Walt Disney World because smoking is allowed in restricted areas. All I can do is point to the research that many claimed that the restaurant business would be doomed if they banned smoking. Research and history showed that business went up. There's no comparison between a two hour meal and a fifteen hour theme park day. Granted, this is an enclosed place, but have public beaches suffered where smoking is banned? No. Has attendance at ball fields with children's athletics are performed gone down? No. There is plenty of precedent to show that the numbers will not go down. while i concede that business didn't suffer over a one or two hour meal, that's very different from a ten, twelve,or more hour theme park day. Will there be people who break the law? Of course. But does taking away a person's right to smoke make it OK for them to break the rules? No. When there are designated smoking areas, there's no law or rule to be broken.

Yes, I know that it is not the rule now, so, yes, they have the RIGHT to smoke. Unfortunate, but true. I just hope that I live long enough to see it change.
Privilege as granted by a private business and inaccordance with laws. Not a right.

Why is it that other than at BoG is there no alcohol at MK? Did people avoid MK for that reason? If so did it hurt attendance numbers before BoG? How about now since you still can't have any alcohol outside of the restaurant? Are people sneaking it in inside their drink bottles? Am I happy that there are no drunken idiots in the place where the smallest children are most likely to be like there tends to be at times in EPCOT?

People did and do bring liquor into Magic Kingdom. It's been admitted, discussed and argued here on the DISboards in the past. Go ask on the TPA&S board.

I truly in my heart, feel that if Walt were alive today and knew the dangers of smoking like we do today, he would be very against smoking in Disney, chain smoker or not... If Walt were alive, and if he were the sole owner and decision-maker, possibly. Not likely, but possible. But this is a corporate decision - and Walt Disney was a good businessman.

I never said they were staying away. I said they might be MORE INCLINED to choose Disney over another location if there was no smoking.
You indicated these people exist, without any support.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:33 PM   #287
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I can honestly say that if Disney banned smoking I wouldn't return. That has nothing to do with hostility or protesting or what have you. The simple fact is that I'm addicted and I can't go more than about 2 or 2 1/2 hours without a cigarette before the withdrawal sets in -- light-headedness, dizziness, sweating, shaking, irritability, and mood-swings (generally switching between anger and tears). That's not something I want to go through for days on end during what's supposed to be a vacation, and I especially wouldn't pay thousands of dollars for the privilege. Nor could I just use nicotine patches or gum and be okay. Those do little to curb the addiction for me.

Like most smokers, I've tried quitting more times than I can count. Patches, gum, cold-turkey, hypnosis, nicotine-free cigarettes, weaning down... None of it has worked long-term for me. My quitting process usually involves taking a week (or more) off from work where I do my best to sleep through the withdrawal symptoms. Even still, I barely have any control over myself. I certainly wouldn't be able to manage in a crowded theme park. So no, it's not just a gross habit every smoker could be expected to drop for a few days while at Disney.

I don't expect any sympathy and I'm fully aware that some people would be happier not to have me there. I just wanted to say yes, some people would stop going if smoking was banned because I am one of them. But Disney is free to do what they want regarding the issue.

In the mean time, it would be nice if people in the parks didn't treat smokers like scum when they are in the smoking sections following the rules and minding their own business. I've gotten tons of dirty looks from people, a few snide comments, and one man walking by, completely unprovoked, shouted obscenities at me while ranting about "stupid smokers killing themselves". What really got to me was that this man was a good 350 pounds. I would never think it appropriate to berate overweight people about what they're doing to their health, so why is it okay to publicly berate smokers?

Like all smokers, I know it's not good for me. I know I need to quit and I understand people don't like the smell. Neither do I, actually. But one thing in this thread really annoys me and that is the whole "be a role model for children" thing. Don't expect a random stranger to be an example for your kids. If I had wanted to be a role model for kids I would've become a teacher, a coach, or a parent. It's not my responsibility to conform to your family's values, nor would something like that even be possible considering how different values are from one family to the next. You don't want your kids to smoke? I completely understand, neither would I. However, the onus is on you. It's your job as a parent to prepare your kids to live in the adult world, not to make adults live in a kids world.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:55 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Disneychick75 View Post
I wonder how many of the strident anti smokers think of themselves as tolerant? Do you have nothing or do nothing in your lives that would draw judgment from others? Maybe it is a case of seeing the splinter in your neighbor's eye but missing the log in your own?
No, I don't think I'm tolerant about smoking at all, actually. I'd actually say I have zero tolerance. Do I do things that draw judgment? I'm sure I do, and if I do, and it's something that causes others to have a negative experience, health issues, or other problems, then I am sure I'll hear about it.

With smoking, while I would say I'm not tolerant of it, I accept it. I wish it was gone, I wish it wasn't at Disney, but I accept that won't be the case. I just wish, as a response to my having to accept it, it was pushed to fewer spots or further off the beaten path.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:43 PM   #289
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[QUOTE=newdeal;50912851 Would it be acceptable if I could piss 10 feet and just stood next to Aloha Isle spraying piss on everyone that walked by and wanted to eat a dole whip float? No it would not I would be kicked out of the park. [/QUOTE]

Sure it would be acceptable, the camels do it! and they havent been kicked out! haha. But really some people are into that whole kinda thing, disney may attract new clientele if that were happening.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:51 PM   #290
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Really?

What other snacks/foods should be off limits/gotten rid of, because you think they are gross?
Thanks for asking, totally off topic but i will answer. The hot dogs at Casey's and the frozen chocolate bananas.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:01 PM   #291
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the hot dogs at casey's...
you take that back!
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:11 PM   #292
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you take that back!
I know what, you keep your hot dogs and i will keep my cigarettes. Then we all walk away happy lol. ( i am not even sure if you smoke or not so that may make no sense) I know alot of people like them hot dogs, maybe it depends where you are from. Those hot dogs dont even resemble a hot dog to me LOL. Now a sahlens or a wardenski hot dog that i can stomach.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:16 PM   #293
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I know what, you keep your hot dogs and i will keep my cigarettes. Then we all walk away happy lol. ( i am not even sure if you smoke or not so that may make no sense) I know alot of people like them hot dogs, maybe it depends where you are from. Those hot dogs dont even resemble a hot dog to me LOL. Now a sahlens or a wardenski hot dog that i can stomach.
Hahah. Nah, I quit a while back.

But actually, I'm a Libertarian. So I really don't care what anyone does in the parks as long as they leave me alone.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:21 PM   #294
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I can honestly say that if Disney banned smoking I wouldn't return. That has nothing to do with hostility or protesting or what have you. The simple fact is that I'm addicted and I can't go more than about 2 or 2 1/2 hours without a cigarette before the withdrawal sets in -- light-headedness, dizziness, sweating, shaking, irritability, and mood-swings (generally switching between anger and tears). That's not something I want to go through for days on end during what's supposed to be a vacation, and I especially wouldn't pay thousands of dollars for the privilege. Nor could I just use nicotine patches or gum and be okay. Those do little to curb the addiction for me.

Like most smokers, I've tried quitting more times than I can count. Patches, gum, cold-turkey, hypnosis, nicotine-free cigarettes, weaning down... None of it has worked long-term for me. My quitting process usually involves taking a week (or more) off from work where I do my best to sleep through the withdrawal symptoms. Even still, I barely have any control over myself. I certainly wouldn't be able to manage in a crowded theme park. So no, it's not just a gross habit every smoker could be expected to drop for a few days while at Disney.

I don't expect any sympathy and I'm fully aware that some people would be happier not to have me there. I just wanted to say yes, some people would stop going if smoking was banned because I am one of them. But Disney is free to do what they want regarding the issue.

In the mean time, it would be nice if people in the parks didn't treat smokers like scum when they are in the smoking sections following the rules and minding their own business. I've gotten tons of dirty looks from people, a few snide comments, and one man walking by, completely unprovoked, shouted obscenities at me while ranting about "stupid smokers killing themselves". What really got to me was that this man was a good 350 pounds. I would never think it appropriate to berate overweight people about what they're doing to their health, so why is it okay to publicly berate smokers?

Like all smokers, I know it's not good for me. I know I need to quit and I understand people don't like the smell. Neither do I, actually. But one thing in this thread really annoys me and that is the whole "be a role model for children" thing. Don't expect a random stranger to be an example for your kids. If I had wanted to be a role model for kids I would've become a teacher, a coach, or a parent. It's not my responsibility to conform to your family's values, nor would something like that even be possible considering how different values are from one family to the next. You don't want your kids to smoke? I completely understand, neither would I. However, the onus is on you. It's your job as a parent to prepare your kids to live in the adult world, not to make adults live in a kids world.
Very well put.

Can I add that during one trip to WDW my mom ran out of cigarettes. She plunked herself down on a bench in Epcot and wouldn't move until someone promised to leave the park with her and go get some. I don't know a single person who smokes because they want to. They smoke because they cannot stop. Some people are acting like it is sooo easy to just stop. Maybe it was for them, but it is not like that for many people.

I honestly don't think any of us would want the parks full of Grumpy Gusses who are off of their smokes for a few days, going through withdrawal. That would be scary!!!
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:57 PM   #295
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Second hand smokes makes me sick. Literally. I can be in a smoky room and have a full asthma attack within a matter of a few minutes. That be said however, I fear the nanny state mentality so many have. I am happy restaurants in most areas everywhere are now smoke free since they are enclosed and I couldn't escape smoke. And I am happy with the smoking sections in the park. Sure, not having to hold my breath and clutch my inhaler as I walk by a busy smoking section would be nice. But I support their right to smoke, even if I don't agree with it, and it's an open area that I can easily avoid for the most part. It's a slippery slope really. Coke is pumped full of GMO (which we have no idea how it effects our health yet) corn syrup, artificial ingredients, and preservatives. There is nothing in it that benefits anyone. Should Disney then ban large size drinks like NYC? Can you imagine the uproar? Or maybe make all soft drinks diet like hundreds of hospitals in order to combat obesity. So you can't choose yourself and are subjected to artificial sweeteners (which we have studies and ideas on how it is actually very bad for our health from cancer concerns to contributing to other diseases). My point here is that we have to look closely at how much we want the powers that be to keep us "safe". For now, I will just power walk by the smoking sections. I never sit down with a Dole Whip anyways
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:28 PM   #296
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Very well put.

Can I add that during one trip to WDW my mom ran out of cigarettes. She plunked herself down on a bench in Epcot and wouldn't move until someone promised to leave the park with her and go get some. I don't know a single person who smokes because they want to. They smoke because they cannot stop. Some people are acting like it is sooo easy to just stop. Maybe it was for them, but it is not like that for many people.
It's stories like this that whittle away the small amount of sympathy I try to build for the situation. That's not an addiction, that's just bad behavior. My father has been smoking for his entire adult life, and then some... More than 60 years. Never, ever, ever, EVER once would it have entered his mind to do such a thing if he couldn't smoke. Never.

Yes, I get that people are addicted, but no, that doesn't excuse bad behavior. Nor does it mean that others have to accommodate your addiction. Plenty of alcoholics visit Disney too, but that doesn't mean you can drink wherever, bring in your own liquor, and that doesn't mean that dry parks need to start making it available, or making places to drink it available.

It's an addiction? Fine, totally get it. But holding people hostage to your emotions and whims on the grounds that you need to indulge your addiction at your whim? No way. And that's what the above is. It's not the indication of addiction, it's an indication of somebody acting out and using their addiction as an excuse.

Quote:
I honestly don't think any of us would want the parks full of Grumpy Gusses who are off of their smokes for a few days, going through withdrawal. That would be scary!!!
Not a fraction of as scary it would be if I had to deal with an asthma attack from my mother or my 3 year old while waiting for Dole Whips. Or the bill for said inhaler because I know I'm going to a place where smoking is tolerated and not far removed enough from the main path.

It must be a southern thing... Up here, everywhere is 100% nonsmoking. Workplaces, including the parking lots, are non-smoking. Airports are non-smoking. Our hospital, the largest hospital in the state, is 100% non-smoking. Employees who want to smoke have to leave the building and go to their cars to do it. Employees who don't are subject to disciplinary actions. At my husband's job, they just fired somebody for constantly breaking the non-smoking ordinance. Caught smoking in a car with a child? That's a summons to court and fines. And yet, people manage to function just fine.

Yes, smoking is an addiction, but I find it hard to believe that it's impossible to quit for those who truly take the steps to do it. It makes no sense that Lindsay Lohan can kick her drug habit, but smokers can't kick their nicotine habit.
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:32 PM   #297
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It must be a southern thing... Up here, everywhere is 100% nonsmoking. Workplaces, including the parking lots, are non-smoking. Airports are non-smoking. Our hospital, the largest hospital in the state, is 100% non-smoking. Employees who want to smoke have to leave the building and go to their cars to do it. Employees who don't are subject to disciplinary actions. At my husband's job, they just fired somebody for constantly breaking the non-smoking ordinance. Caught smoking in a car with a child? That's a summons to court and fines. And yet, people manage to function just fine.

Yes, smoking is an addiction, but I find it hard to believe that it's impossible to quit for those who truly take the steps to do it. It makes no sense that Lindsay Lohan can kick her drug habit, but smokers can't kick their nicotine habit.
Do you really think LL is off drugs????

Btw, I'm up north too, and yes most places are smoke free. You just have to walk through a cloud of smoke to get inside. No such thing as a DSA on a map, where you can look and avoid the smoking area if you choose to.

Btw, I have asthma too and carry an inhalor with me at all times. You know what caused my worst attack at WDW? Being down-wind of the fireworks. Maybe they should ban those.
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:35 PM   #298
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http://www.wdwinfo.com/images/smilies/sick.gif

Second hand smokes makes me sick. Literally. I can be in a smoky room and have a full asthma attack within a matter of a few minutes. That be said however, I fear the nanny state mentality so many have. I am happy restaurants in most areas everywhere are now smoke free since they are enclosed and I couldn't escape smoke. And I am happy with the smoking sections in the park. Sure, not having to hold my breath and clutch my inhaler as I walk by a busy smoking section would be nice. But I support their right to smoke, even if I don't agree with it, and it's an open area that I can easily avoid for the most part. It's a slippery slope really. Coke is pumped full of GMO (which we have no idea how it effects our health yet) corn syrup, artificial ingredients, and preservatives. There is nothing in it that benefits anyone. Should Disney then ban large size drinks like NYC? Can you imagine the uproar? Or maybe make all soft drinks diet like hundreds of hospitals in order to combat obesity. So you can't choose yourself and are subjected to artificial sweeteners (which we have studies and ideas on how it is actually very bad for our health from cancer concerns to contributing to other diseases). My point here is that we have to look closely at how much we want the powers that be to keep us "safe". For now, I will just power walk by the smoking sections. I never sit down with a Dole Whip anyways
I think the soda analogy would work if, when I drank a soda, it caused you to have negative side effects. My choice to drink a soda makes the effects of said soda my problem. But if sodas were potent enough that you could drink a Mountain Dew and I have a cardiac complication (I have to avoid caffeine for cardiac reasons), then it'd be limited.

Then, of course, there's the issue that seeing as it is a family park with kids, they have to be more diligent. While I'm marginally willing to deal with people smoking around me when I'm on my own, my tolerance falls to zero when I have the three kids with me. And it always makes me so, so sad to look in the smoking section and see people smoking away with their kids right there, in strollers, or sitting next to them as they do that.

Like I said, my father is a smoker and has been a 2 pack a day smoker for about 70 years, but he'd sooner light himself on fire than smoke in front of kids, let alone kids he's related to. As a smoker, he sees that and it drives him up the wall.
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:38 PM   #299
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Do you really think LL is off drugs????
She seems to be, which is better than the "she for sure isn't."

Quote:
Btw, I'm up north too, and yes most places are smoke free. You just have to walk through a cloud of smoke to get inside. No such thing as a DSA on a map, where you can look and avoid the smoking area if you choose to.
Up here, there's no walking through smokers to get inside. Most retailers forbid people from smoking up front, for just that reason. My husband is the GM for a major retailer in our area, they just terminated somebody for smoking outside in violation of their policy. And you'd better believe, the streams of complaints they got about him being there were numerous and persistent.

People just don't demand to smoke up here, or have places to smoke up here, like they do down south.

Quote:
Btw, I have asthma too and carry an inhalor with me at all times. You know what caused my worst attack at WDW? Being down-wind of the fireworks. Maybe they should ban those.
My mother's worst asthma attack was during fireworks too. But she chose to stay and watch them, and the next night, she chose to watch them again. The night after, she went and did rides instead because she didn't want to deal with the asthma issue.

She chose to be there, Disney didn't tell her that she had to be there. Whereas with the smoking sections, some of them are plain unavoidable. At the resorts, some of them are close enough to the rooms that if you're in one of those rooms, you're kind of forced to deal with it.
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:50 PM   #300
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Quote:
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Statistics and probabilities. Statistics and probabilities need to be basedon fact,not some guesses pulled out of the air. All of the information in this debate Conversation is hypothetical. None of it is based on fact. Yet you continue to post numbers, estimates, percentages, and potentials as if they were fact, without any indication until now that said numbers are, in fact, made up. I can't prove that a smoker will still come to Disney any more than you can prove that they won't. Without any supporting information except the percent of US adult smokers, claims that only 0.0905% of Disney's business would be affected are as baseless as claims that 16,000 or even 1,600 people are avoiding Walt Disney World because smoking is allowed in restricted areas. All I can do is point to the research that many claimed that the restaurant business would be doomed if they banned smoking. Research and history showed that business went up. There's no comparison between a two hour meal and a fifteen hour theme park day. Granted, this is an enclosed place, but have public beaches suffered where smoking is banned? No. Has attendance at ball fields with children's athletics are performed gone down? No. There is plenty of precedent to show that the numbers will not go down. while i concede that business didn't suffer over a one or two hour meal, that's very different from a ten, twelve,or more hour theme park day. Will there be people who break the law? Of course. But does taking away a person's right to smoke make it OK for them to break the rules? No. When there are designated smoking areas, there's no law or rule to be broken.

Yes, I know that it is not the rule now, so, yes, they have the RIGHT to smoke. Unfortunate, but true. I just hope that I live long enough to see it change.
Privilege as granted by a private business and inaccordance with laws. Not a right.

Why is it that other than at BoG is there no alcohol at MK? Did people avoid MK for that reason? If so did it hurt attendance numbers before BoG? How about now since you still can't have any alcohol outside of the restaurant? Are people sneaking it in inside their drink bottles? Am I happy that there are no drunken idiots in the place where the smallest children are most likely to be like there tends to be at times in EPCOT?

People did and do bring liquor into Magic Kingdom. It's been admitted, discussed and argued here on the DISboards in the past. Go ask on the TPA&S board.

I truly in my heart, feel that if Walt were alive today and knew the dangers of smoking like we do today, he would be very against smoking in Disney, chain smoker or not... If Walt were alive, and if he were the sole owner and decision-maker, possibly. Not likely, but possible. But this is a corporate decision - and Walt Disney was a good businessman.

I never said they were staying away. I said they might be MORE INCLINED to choose Disney over another location if there was no smoking.

You indicated these people exist, without any support.
I was very clear that my numbers were hypothetical. I am sorry you cannot be bothered to read that part. Please do not make it sound like I misrepresented those figures as fact.

I find it quite humorous that you complete ignore the line about beaches and ballfields. I also forgot to include the ban of smoking in national parks like Yosemite or Grand Canyon. Also, many state parks also have an ban on smoking. These are all open air places. They are also public places and not private property.

As far as the liquor goes, noone claimed that there weren't people who broke the rules. The fact that someone will break a rule is NOT an excuse to not enact the rule.

I have made many concessions, admitted being wrong and agreed with some of what you have said. Yet you continue to read from a script. I have friends like this. The argue because they can. They only listen enough to the other person to find things to refute and refuse to discuss common ground. That is not a conversation.
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