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Old 11-01-2013, 11:31 PM   #76
DPCummerbund
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1) I'm not surprised that Disney hasn't marketed the Magic Band system. it's still in test phase, and the program is still in flux. The changes announced today are a good example of that - with no warning, they changed which rides you're allowed to book and when. If they had announced MBs to everybody and hyped it, lots more people would have been upset. I'm sure they'll hype it more when it's good and ready.

2) If attendance is already high and at or near capacity, there's no point in building MORE rides. The parks are already FULL of rides. The only reason to build new ones is to replace old rides that are no longer attracting people. In Disney's ideal world, there would be no Universal or Harry Potter to draw off guests, and they could just keep maintaining the same rides forever. Besides, many of the oldest rides are the best. I'm middle aged, and the best rides in WDW are all older than I am (BTW, the 4 best rides in WDW are BTMRR, SM, HM, and POTC. If you have a different opinion, you are wrong, and I will brook no argument!) So, at this point, if Disney can do something to change or improve the experience for guests and makes them more money than a new ride would, more power to them.

3) The parks are NOT getting more crowded. After a slight decrease during the recession, attendance at most WDW has been up about 2% per year over the last few years. You're simply not going to notice 2% per year. Any perceived difference in crowd levels (especially over the past few years, as some are claiming) is due to something OTHER than overall attendance - such as changes to the yearly schedule, major events, psychological factors, etc.

4) Disney is doing this so you'll spend more time in the restaurants and gift shops. That's the REAL reason for doing this. It's not about "marketing" to you. If it was about marketing, it would be a two-way system, where Disney would be able to communicate its marketing message to you. Magic Bands can't do that. Yes, Disney is tracking you. But it's not tracking you, personally, it's tracking your data. Who cares?

5) If you're in line, you're not spending money. Most people would be happier doing something other than standing in line. So, Disney kills two birds with one stone - they make money, and guests are happy with shorter lines.
However, as a previous poster pointed out, the lines are a form of crowd control. I seriously wonder how much Disney thought about that. It's beginning to be my #1 concern about the FP+ system.
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Old 11-02-2013, 12:26 AM   #77
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I see what you are saying but the frustration in the testing phase is why I bring up the marketing thing. I think Disney's investment is large enough where you do need some buy-in from the customer, even if it's a smoke screen to hide their real intentions. I'm not saying I support being deceived by the company I give quite a bit of money to every year. I'm just a little surprised they aren't doing more to get guests excited about this as mentioned previously.
To point #5, I haven't seen reports either way on standby lines that I can give an intelligent opinion. I know things seem to be crazy busy for some reason but that's about all I've read. Most of the complaints have been how crowded it is and how all of the FPs have been reserved and none are left for offsite guests. My point on the new test in Epcot was if you are honestly looking at slotting rides into tiers, this could potentially be a problem. They are just testing right now so nothing is concrete but I can't imagine (in the short term at least) this will result in shorter standby lines unless they increase the number of FPs a guest can have in a day.
As I said before, the MBs make sense and I think they are a great idea. I'm also willing to give FP+ a real chance. Maybe I just don't understand how this will actually affect the logistics of things and will be pleasantly surprised. I have to take a lot of comments on these boards with a grain of salt simply because people naturally report negative info over positive. I'm honestly trying to keep an open mind but I have concerns about what this will do to my experience down the road.

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Old 11-02-2013, 09:12 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPCummerbund View Post
1) I'm not surprised that Disney hasn't marketed the Magic Band system. it's still in test phase, and the program is still in flux. The changes announced today are a good example of that - with no warning, they changed which rides you're allowed to book and when. If they had announced MBs to everybody and hyped it, lots more people would have been upset. I'm sure they'll hype it more when it's good and ready.

2) If attendance is already high and at or near capacity, there's no point in building MORE rides. The parks are already FULL of rides. The only reason to build new ones is to replace old rides that are no longer attracting people. In Disney's ideal world, there would be no Universal or Harry Potter to draw off guests, and they could just keep maintaining the same rides forever. Besides, many of the oldest rides are the best. I'm middle aged, and the best rides in WDW are all older than I am (BTW, the 4 best rides in WDW are BTMRR, SM, HM, and POTC. If you have a different opinion, you are wrong, and I will brook no argument!) So, at this point, if Disney can do something to change or improve the experience for guests and makes them more money than a new ride would, more power to them.

3) The parks are NOT getting more crowded. After a slight decrease during the recession, attendance at most WDW has been up about 2% per year over the last few years. You're simply not going to notice 2% per year. Any perceived difference in crowd levels (especially over the past few years, as some are claiming) is due to something OTHER than overall attendance - such as changes to the yearly schedule, major events, psychological factors, etc.

4) Disney is doing this so you'll spend more time in the restaurants and gift shops. That's the REAL reason for doing this. It's not about "marketing" to you. If it was about marketing, it would be a two-way system, where Disney would be able to communicate its marketing message to you. Magic Bands can't do that. Yes, Disney is tracking you. But it's not tracking you, personally, it's tracking your data. Who cares?

5) If you're in line, you're not spending money. Most people would be happier doing something other than standing in line. So, Disney kills two birds with one stone - they make money, and guests are happy with shorter lines.
However, as a previous poster pointed out, the lines are a form of crowd control. I seriously wonder how much Disney thought about that. It's beginning to be my #1 concern about the FP+ system.
I don't know about the last few years since I haven't been since 2010 but 2007 was more crowded than 2003 and 2010 more than 2007. I went during the same time period each time. So maybe some of the the people who would go during other times started deciding to go then, I don't know, but it was harder to navigate the parks and I still have scars from all the strollers that ran me over. So even if the #s don't support it I can tell you there was definitely a noticeable difference in how many people were in the parks.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:18 AM   #79
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Said like a true apologist. The purpose of the bands is marketing - 100%. The rest is all spin. Keep passing the Kool Aid around. And yes, I know, if I don't like it I don't have to go.
So now we're resorting to name-calling. Charming.

I'll simply agree to disagree. There are many other ways in which Disney can benefit besides "marketing." I've already outlined many examples and won't bother to do it again.

If I were to summarize, the simplest way to describe their motivation is "they expect to use MagicBands to make more money." Period. No question.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean guests' experiences won't improve with the new tech in place. FP+ addresses the items I hated the most about the old FastPass system: having to run around grabbing tickets, uncertainty of return times, need to be at select attractions near park opening to even get a FP. It also introduces scheduled return times for things like Fantasmic & parade viewing and character meets...events which can easily necessitate 60+ minutes of wait time without FP.

I don't think there's anything apologist about pointing out that--no matter what I'm wearing on my wrist--Disney can't force me to buy unwanted Turkey Legs or t-shirts. I still have my own free will, thank you very much.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by robpa View Post
I don't know about the last few years since I haven't been since 2010 but 2007 was more crowded than 2003 and 2010 more than 2007. I went during the same time period each time. So maybe some of the the people who would go during other times started deciding to go then, I don't know, but it was harder to navigate the parks and I still have scars from all the strollers that ran me over. So even if the #s don't support it I can tell you there was definitely a noticeable difference in how many people were in the parks.
From 2008 to 2012, Magic Kingdom attendance is up a cumulative 3%, from 17 million to 17.5 million.

Epcot is up less than 2% from 10.9 mil to 11.1 mil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._park_rankings

Crowd balancing has had some impact. Disney has gone to great lengths to bring more people into the parks during slower periods. However, based upon people I've spoken with and information I've read, they have also increased FastPass utilization on many attractions.

When they distribute more FPs, guests aren't spending as much time in the Standby lines. Instead they are crowding the walking paths and pushing strollers. THAT is a big reason why the parks often seem fuller.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:30 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by robpa View Post

I don't know about the last few years since I haven't been since 2010 but 2007 was more crowded than 2003 and 2010 more than 2007. I went during the same time period each time. So maybe some of the the people who would go during other times started deciding to go then, I don't know, but it was harder to navigate the parks and I still have scars from all the strollers that ran me over. So even if the #s don't support it I can tell you there was definitely a noticeable difference in how many people were in the parks.
2003 was one of their slowest periods in history... 2007 was housing bubble and one of the busiest... 2010 was a cross over between the crash and Disney's ramping up promotions to counteract the crash.

Just some context.

2011-2013 has been slow each time we've been there...about 7 or 8...in my opinion.

And I spend way more time analyzing the crowds and the menu prices and the tweaks to things that they do in plain sight if you are looking for them than I do running for a toy story fastpass or waiting in line to see a tired fantastic show that they've run 10,000 times (not exaggerating)
...just as a reference point to my observations.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:49 AM   #82
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2003 was one of their slowest periods in history... 2007 was housing bubble and one of the busiest... 2010 was a cross over between the crash and Disney's ramping up promotions to counteract the crash.

Just some context.

2011-2013 has been slow each time we've been there...about 7 or 8...in my opinion.

And I spend way more time analyzing the crowds and the menu prices and the tweaks to things that they do in plain sight if you are looking for them than I do running for a toy story fastpass or waiting in line to see a tired fantastic show that they've run 10,000 times (not exaggerating)
...just as a reference point to my observations.
Thanks for the Info, when we went it was more commando, trying to get my money's worth

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So now we're resorting to name-calling. Charming.

I'll simply agree to disagree. There are many other ways in which Disney can benefit besides "marketing." I've already outlined many examples and won't bother to do it again.

If I were to summarize, the simplest way to describe their motivation is "they expect to use MagicBands to make more money." Period. No question.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean guests' experiences won't improve with the new tech in place. FP+ addresses the items I hated the most about the old FastPass system: having to run around grabbing tickets, uncertainty of return times, need to be at select attractions near park opening to even get a FP. It also introduces scheduled return times for things like Fantasmic & parade viewing and character meets...events which can easily necessitate 60+ minutes of wait time without FP.

I don't think there's anything apologist about pointing out that--no matter what I'm wearing on my wrist--Disney can't force me to buy unwanted Turkey Legs or t-shirts. I still have my own free will, thank you very much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
From 2008 to 2012, Magic Kingdom attendance is up a cumulative 3%, from 17 million to 17.5 million.

Epcot is up less than 2% from 10.9 mil to 11.1 mil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._park_rankings

Crowd balancing has had some impact. Disney has gone to great lengths to bring more people into the parks during slower periods. However, based upon people I've spoken with and information I've read, they have also increased FastPass utilization on many attractions.

When they distribute more FPs, guests aren't spending as much time in the Standby lines. Instead they are crowding the walking paths and pushing strollers. THAT is a big reason why the parks often seem fuller.
Thanks for the info, that could be true, however I recall standby lines being on the longer side as well as park being crowded in 2010 so probably a product of more people going in perceived slow times.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:50 AM   #83
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pardon my double quote not good with message boards
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:53 AM   #84
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When all the FP+ are gone and the standby lines are out of this world there are more people strolling through the park as well. However these are not happy people these are frustrated people, I know I was one of them. It did not cause me to want to buy things, It caused me to be cranky and want to leave. so that is what I did. Did not buy anything, and left feeling the "New" Disney experience stinks!
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:04 AM   #85
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When all the FP+ are gone and the standby lines are out of this world there are more people strolling through the park as well. However these are not happy people these are frustrated people, I know I was one of them. It did not cause me to want to buy things, It caused me to be cranky and want to leave. so that is what I did. Did not buy anything, and left feeling the "New" Disney experience stinks!
Not sure how the testing has gone but it seems they should have tested per park for a longer amount of time, so not so many guests would be affected. I know the answer on here has been if you don't want to be part of the testing opt out, but its affecting everyone there whether you are part of the test or not.
Sorry you had a bad time, sounds like my situation the last time I went and I haven't gone back and have no plans to.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by robpa View Post
I don't know about the last few years since I haven't been since 2010 but 2007 was more crowded than 2003 and 2010 more than 2007. I went during the same time period each time. So maybe some of the the people who would go during other times started deciding to go then, I don't know, but it was harder to navigate the parks and I still have scars from all the strollers that ran me over. So even if the #s don't support it I can tell you there was definitely a noticeable difference in how many people were in the parks.
Well, that was sort of my point. There's ACTUAL attendance, and what it FEELS like. For example, if two different days have the same attendance, but one day the park has plenty of fastpasses but the other day they're gone, then the second day probably led you to feel that it's more crowded. If everyone happened to run over your toes with their strollers on one day, but the other day your toes were left unmolested, then the first day probably felt more crowded.

TEA publishes theme park attendance for every park every year. I don't know about 2003, their reports are not online back that far. However, you said that 2010 felt more crowded than 2007. Here's the MK attendance for those two years:
MK 2007: 17,060,000
MK 2010: 16,972,000

So, when you look at the actual attendance numbers, there were 88,000 FEWER people in MK in 2010 than in 2007.

It's very possible that they happened to be more crowded on the particular day you went there, or maybe tour groups have changed the crowd levels for that particular time of year, or whatever. But OVERALL attendance was DOWN. I know YOU didn't say this, but other people have said that they're not going to WDW any more because it's too crowded now, and that's just not the case.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the crowds are "evening out." Disney is probably running more specials (free dining, more special events) during off times. So, people who used to go during peak seasons are now going during off seasons to save money. I think we're seeing a lot more complaints now because October/November were probably less crowded in years past than they are now. As a consequence to that, it's very possible that summer crowds are correspondingly lower than they used to be.

In summary, I don't think the current frustrations with crowds are related to Fastpass. They're more related to October being busier than it used to be.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:15 PM   #87
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When all the FP+ are gone and the standby lines are out of this world there are more people strolling through the park as well. However these are not happy people these are frustrated people, I know I was one of them. It did not cause me to want to buy things, It caused me to be cranky and want to leave. so that is what I did. Did not buy anything, and left feeling the "New" Disney experience stinks!
Again, this CANNOT be the case. You may FEEL that the lines were longer, but overall they weren't - unless this particular October happened to be more busy than previous Octobers.

Look at it this way: imagine that Disney got rid of Fastpasses altogether. No FP-, no FP+. Everybody waits in standby all the time.

What would change for the WHOLE group of park-goers that day? NOTHING. If there are X amount of people in the park, and BTMRR can process Y amount of riders per day, then the number of times the average guest gets to ride BTMRR is X/Y. Nothing can change that - not even the Magic Bands.

So, it's very possible that the savvy DISers - who know the FP- system like the backs of their hands - have found their strategies somewhat thwarted by the new system. But if that's the case, then the "average" visitors who don't use FP- very often & wait in standby are HAPPIER, because their lines are SHORTER - because you're not hogging all the fastpasses and "cutting" in their lines!

Yes, you were unhappy with your Disney experience. But that doesn't mean that EVERYONE was. If you waited longer, than someone else waited LESS.
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Old 11-02-2013, 03:33 PM   #88
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Again, this CANNOT be the case. You may FEEL that the lines were longer, but overall they weren't - unless this particular October happened to be more busy than previous Octobers.

Look at it this way: imagine that Disney got rid of Fastpasses altogether. No FP-, no FP+. Everybody waits in standby all the time.

What would change for the WHOLE group of park-goers that day? NOTHING. If there are X amount of people in the park, and BTMRR can process Y amount of riders per day, then the number of times the average guest gets to ride BTMRR is X/Y. Nothing can change that - not even the Magic Bands.

So, it's very possible that the savvy DISers - who know the FP- system like the backs of their hands - have found their strategies somewhat thwarted by the new system. But if that's the case, then the "average" visitors who don't use FP- very often & wait in standby are HAPPIER, because their lines are SHORTER - because you're not hogging all the fastpasses and "cutting" in their lines!

Yes, you were unhappy with your Disney experience. But that doesn't mean that EVERYONE was. If you waited longer, than someone else waited LESS.
I understand what you are saying however regardless my experience was less magical, less enjoyable than the past. Also while ACTUAL attendance may be less the lines were indeed longer. Maybe becuase more people choose to ride and not shop or eat. Maybe there are less attractions to space people out; rides broke down so fewer lines to wait in and more people per line that is up and running. The line for BTMRR was to the bridge by TSI. Fastpass was 30 minutes long, standby was 120minutes.
I am sure others did have shorter wait times. Maybe dumb luck or maybe they were better at naigating the lines using technology. I don't know but I left feeling . I am a die hard Disney but now I am planning my first trip to Florida that may not include Disney. I was heartbroken the last time I left. I felt I let my family down and ruined their vacation.
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:50 PM   #89
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Well, that was sort of my point. There's ACTUAL attendance, and what it FEELS like. For example, if two different days have the same attendance, but one day the park has plenty of fastpasses but the other day they're gone, then the second day probably led you to feel that it's more crowded. If everyone happened to run over your toes with their strollers on one day, but the other day your toes were left unmolested, then the first day probably felt more crowded.

TEA publishes theme park attendance for every park every year. I don't know about 2003, their reports are not online back that far. However, you said that 2010 felt more crowded than 2007. Here's the MK attendance for those two years:
MK 2007: 17,060,000
MK 2010: 16,972,000

So, when you look at the actual attendance numbers, there were 88,000 FEWER people in MK in 2010 than in 2007.

It's very possible that they happened to be more crowded on the particular day you went there, or maybe tour groups have changed the crowd levels for that particular time of year, or whatever. But OVERALL attendance was DOWN. I know YOU didn't say this, but other people have said that they're not going to WDW any more because it's too crowded now, and that's just not the case.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the crowds are "evening out." Disney is probably running more specials (free dining, more special events) during off times. So, people who used to go during peak seasons are now going during off seasons to save money. I think we're seeing a lot more complaints now because October/November were probably less crowded in years past than they are now. As a consequence to that, it's very possible that summer crowds are correspondingly lower than they used to be.

In summary, I don't think the current frustrations with crowds are related to Fastpass. They're more related to October being busier than it used to be.
Yes my experience had nothing to do with fastpass availability we were able to pull fastpasses except for TSMM and that was a choice we made. We decided it made more sense to go on rockin roller coaster and tower of terror as opposed to standing in a line(long line for fastpass and we got there at rd) to get a pass to come back and stand in a line for 1 ride. I think we rode both a few times without much wait.
It was darn near impossible to just get around and to me that isn't very relaxing. Some may enjoy that but I'm not one of them. Plus when you go in off season park hours are shorter so leaving and coming back isn't really an option.
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:13 PM   #90
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The reality is that the Disney parks are nowhere near "full" in the aggregate...

Magic kingdom, EPCOT and animal kingdom all have the same rough "capacity"...about 100,000.

So simple math
700,000 a week, 36,500,000 million per year.

Yes sports fans...that means they have never been more than "half full"

And if your instinct is to say "Disney doesn't REALLY want that many people there"...ha ha, try them.

So all this talk of crowded/too crowded/overcrowded is pointless...to be honest.
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