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Old 08-15-2013, 10:29 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by NotUrsula View Post
With all due respect, yes, I do. I grew up in a household where eating regularly meant hunting, and my father and brother liked to restore old weapons at home. I first fired a rifle at age 7, with the barrel strapped on a sawhorse so that I could manage the kick. I've also got a master's degree in 20th century military history.

A typical round from an AK-47 is easily capable of piercing 3/8" steel plating at 100m. A typical school desk is made from 20-gauge steel, which is about .035 inches thick. At a range of around 8 feet (which is probably about how far away the "multiple moving targets" would be in your scenario, the desk is not going to present any kind of barrier to that rifle round, assuming that the round even hits the steel, which isn't a sure bet (it would depend on how the person was holding it.) As to cinder block, yes, it's soft if you aim at it, but a bullet will most likely glance off if you hit it at an oblique angle from very close range.

The rifle used at Sandy Hook was a Bushmaster .223. Depending on the type of rounds the shooter used, they might either splinter on impact (causing shrapnel scatter) or penetrate the steel. Historically, the determined "rampage" shooter has preferred armor-piercing rounds, probably on the theory that they will slow down law enforcement. Either way, the Bushmaster is very popular as a "home-defense" weapon precisely because it doesn't take much aim to use it to hit someone at close range; it's right up there with a 12-gauge shotgun in popularity for that use. Guns & Ammo did a story on the topic last year: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/1...fense-caliber/
Okay, so that does sound better.

BUT, if you know that much, you must also know that a handgun bullet at close range is every bit as effective as the 2 rifles you referenced. And also that one does not simply spray bullets. In the 3-4 seconds before the students are upon him, the shooter gets off 1 or 2 carefully aimed shots, or 5-6 hastily fired shots. All the while books and other objects are being hurled at his head and he's being rushed by several kids whose outlines are obscured by the "shields". And yes; if he's armed with the bullets used at Sandy Hook, they will lose much of their effectiveness upon penetration. But, protection from bullets is not the primary use of the desks. They are there for (1) making target acquisition harder, and (2) for use as offensive weapons once the students reach the shooter.
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:34 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by garada3 View Post

Assigning "A" student is exactly what the teachers have been asked to do, assign one student by name for each of three jobs, helping calm others, barricading the door and attack the intruder. Teachers are asked to do this for each class period. That is what I am upset about, the assigning of students to the task.

Also, the front row of many classrooms is occupied by students who have IEP (special education) accommodations for preferential seating close to instruction, smartboard, or teacher. Not saying that these students will not act heroically in such a situation, but to illustrate that the teachers are not always free to seat students in any location in the room.
One for each of the first two tasks makes perfect sense. I do agree sending one after the attacker is futile at best.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:20 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
Okay, so that does sound better.

BUT, if you know that much, you must also know that a handgun bullet at close range is every bit as effective as the 2 rifles you referenced. And also that one does not simply spray bullets. In the 3-4 seconds before the students are upon him, the shooter gets off 1 or 2 carefully aimed shots, or 5-6 hastily fired shots. All the while books and other objects are being hurled at his head and he's being rushed by several kids whose outlines are obscured by the "shields". And yes; if he's armed with the bullets used at Sandy Hook, they will lose much of their effectiveness upon penetration. But, protection from bullets is not the primary use of the desks. They are there for (1) making target acquisition harder, and (2) for use as offensive weapons once the students reach the shooter.
3-4 seconds? Gradeschoolers? You really believe that kids that age are going to be capable of carrying out a counteroffensive that quickly in the face of live fire?

Military commanders have known forever that you have to actively train people to move toward the muzzle of a firearm. Human instinct tells us to freeze or drop; but NOT to go toward the danger. It is necessary to consciously overcome that instinct, and I simply don't believe that your average 8 yo is going to be able to do it in under 5 seconds if he has never faced a gun muzzle before, let alone one that is actually firing.

Also, these kids are going to weigh an average of around 70/80 lbs. Even if a bullet strikes the desk, the impact is going to knock them clean off their feet and make it difficult to get back up again quickly, which is probably going to give your shooter time to get the upper hand.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:49 AM   #79
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First off, the discussion was middle schoolers. As for my 3-4 seconds, I believe that to be a good #. Is there a chance they all freeze and do nothing? Of course. But then at that point, time is no longer a factor and they're no better (or worse) off than what typically happens today.

And yes, the point is to train them to think differently. First instinct is - and always should be - to flee. But, when that fails, on to plan B.

And again, the real point of the whole thing isn't to turn children into little commandos. The point is much the same as us taking back the airlines. To let the nut jobs. Know that from this point on, we won't just let it happen. And if that notion stops even one nut from targeting a school, mission accomplished
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:05 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4
And again, the real point of the whole thing isn't to turn children into little commandos. The point is much the same as us taking back the airlines. To let the nut jobs. Know that from this point on, we won't just let it happen. And if that notion stops even one nut from targeting a school, mission accomplished
You just sold me on the whole idea...

I've worked in the commercial construction industry, specifically doors and hardware. There is no way any school district that I know of can afford bullet resistant doors and glass. (Nothing is ever bullet proof.) They're ridiculously priced. That's pretty much out of the question.

Also, I can't remember who asked... but all doors have to open (swing out) to the outside for fire safety reasons. That's why (in most cases) all doors open into the hallway. It also creates barriers for people zigzagging down the hall to get out.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:25 PM   #81
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You just sold me on the whole idea...

I've worked in the commercial construction industry, specifically doors and hardware. There is no way any school district that I know of can afford bullet resistant doors and glass. (Nothing is ever bullet proof.) They're ridiculously priced. That's pretty much out of the question.

Also, I can't remember who asked... but all doors have to open (swing out) to the outside for fire safety reasons. That's why (in most cases) all doors open into the hallway. It also creates barriers for people zigzagging down the hall to get out.

Our doors to the hallway actually open IN at our school. The outside doors swing out.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:52 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by GagesMama View Post
You just sold me on the whole idea...

I've worked in the commercial construction industry, specifically doors and hardware. There is no way any school district that I know of can afford bullet resistant doors and glass. (Nothing is ever bullet proof.) They're ridiculously priced. That's pretty much out of the question.

Also, I can't remember who asked... but all doors have to open (swing out) to the outside for fire safety reasons. That's why (in most cases) all doors open into the hallway. It also creates barriers for people zigzagging down the hall to get out.
I have never been in a school or any building where room doors opened out INTO a hallway. Doors always open INTO the room.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:56 AM   #83
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I have never been in a school or any building where room doors opened out INTO a hallway. Doors always open INTO the room.
I'm pretty sure they did in my high school. I can remember people holding doors open by leaning on them and they were in the hallway.

I could be wrong though. I also thought I turned left into the fair a few days ago and turned the wrong way out, taking us on the "scenic" route home.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:12 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennasis

I have never been in a school or any building where room doors opened out INTO a hallway. Doors always open INTO the room.
I wasn't trying to start a war here. Just giving information I know about a question previously asked. In our state (Florida), the fire code reads that in order to leave a building from a room located somewhere inside, all doors have to be pushed to exit since it takes less time than pulling. It also depends on fire walls (made to withstand internal fires) and other variables. I know a lot of older buildings are grandfathered in, but even in the high school I attended (built in the 50s-60s) the doors opened into the hallway.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:16 PM   #85
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I have never been in a school or any building where room doors opened out INTO a hallway. Doors always open INTO the room.
The doors at my kids' school all open outwards. Although there aren't any halls at their school - they all open to the outside.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:16 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by jaybirdsmommy

This is what the kids at my sons school (k-5) are being taught and I admit that while it unnerves me to think about, I think it's the right approach.

1. Get out (most of hte classrooms have emergency exits)
2. If they can't get out, then lock the door, turn off the lights, and sit quietly by the wall.
3. If the shooter (or whoever) gets in the room anyway, then they are to pick up whatever they can find and throw it at the persons head.
I have two boys in elementary school and my younger son was in kindergarten last year. This #3 made me cry. Also when I think of the teacher that lied to the shooter to protect her students I cry.

I think the difference nowadays is that back then we were conditioned to accept IMPERSONAL threat. The weather, or even the Soviets, were not out to get us specifically. Nowadays the things kids worry about is people targeting their school specifically.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:33 PM   #87
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Sadly, this is the reality our little ones must face. They need to know, this is "normal"...and not to panick or be afraid.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:43 PM   #88
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What I'm thinking is a class where someone had been hurt or shot would put out the red card afterward. The police would check rooms without either card as well. I've basically said if there is a real lockdown, I'm not putting out a card to advertise we are in the room.

What I think schools need is bullet proof windows all around. Then they need a lobby area that is cut off from the rest of the school by steel doors that lock. Visitors could be buzzed through that door. The office should have a silent alarm like banks that would alert police, but also send a signal to classrooms to alert them to an intruder.

Of course, all this costs money. In NC, we can't even afford assistant teachers. And some schools in our district don't even have the buzz in system for front doors.
Our red cards are always "out". They hang from the windows. In the case of a true emergency, if everyone in your class is accounted for, you change it to green.
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:01 PM   #89
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In November 1975 when I was a high school freshman, my high school received a bomb threat.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:19 PM   #90
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As a teacher, I have a plan in my head for this very situation. I'm sure most teachers have thought it through at least once in their careers. My first priority is to get my kids to safety. Luckily, the kids in my school are quick to give info about weapons or threats to the school and teachers are notorious for interrogating strangers w/o proper identification. At the end of the day, we all want to go home to our families.
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