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Old 08-14-2013, 03:55 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by rwdavis2 View Post
Are any of you old enough to have done an air raid drill in school in the 60's?
Do you mean the old "duck and cover?" I'm old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. I remember my parents being scared. I also remember when people felt the need to build bomb shelters in their backyards. I remember when Kennedy was shot and then his brother. It seemed like the world was out of control.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:33 PM   #47
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As opposed to the burden of living with yourself knowing a plan you thought to be too tough to implement could have saved some of your students?

The plan to me appears to be the next level to be implemented when all else fails. Seems pretty simple to me:

Teacher is away from the door, the task of locking it falls to the student closest to the door.

Door fails to hold, the task of rushing the attacker falls on the front row (using their desks as both shields and as weapons).

If you as the teacher are uncomfortable assigning that to specific students, you rotate your kids weekly to new seats. Row 1 moves to row 2, 2 to 3, back row to front.

As a parent of a 12-year-old going into middle school, I hate the idea of my child having to possibly defend her classmates against an attacker. Know what I hate even more? The idea that that task has been assigned to nobody.
So at "meet the teacher" be sure to have your child's teacher put them at the top of the list to rush the gunman. Don't like that idea? As a parent i sure don't and I feel that such a list is wrong.

Current crisis plan involves students moving into the corner of the room furthest from the door and sitting on the floor out of view. Teachers must check hallway for students, close and lock door, and turn off lights, monitors and smartboards and then join students to ensure silence.

In order to rush the intruder, students would have to extricate themselves from the group of 32 huddled on the floor and move across the room to the door. Imagine the anxiety for those on the list if they are told to be at the front of the group!

Having to pick the child at the front of the group is just an inappropriate task to place on teachers' shoulders. We do not know how a child will react in a true crisis,what if I pick the wrong child for the task and lives are lost?

I pray that these lock down drills remain drills and never have to be implemented, at my school, at your school or at any school ever again.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:38 PM   #48
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A middle school teacher friend of mine showed me a form that she was given at a staff meeting on the first day of teacher work week ( week prior to students first day). Our schools have had lock down drills for years but this form was disturbing.

The form, called the Classroom Active Intruder Plan, requires her to list students, by name, that can assist during lock down drills by doing the following tasks: helping others stay calm, barricading the door and attacking the intruder.

I am angered as a parent and as a teacher.

Placing the expectation upon a child that it is their job to attack an intruder? Really? Gotta wonder how this is going to be introduced in the classroom, "Who wants to hand out papers? Who wants to attack a person with a gun? ".

Asking a teacher to designate which students will be the attacking force is so wrong. In addition to all the other expectations placed on teachers, these professionals are being instructed to decide which students to put directly in harm's way.

I have already called the superintendent's office to register my objections.
...umm, because you would rather your child be a sitting duck with no other options....?

As a teacher and a mom to two school aged children and a husband in law enforcement, I can tell you without any doubt the traditional lockdown does not work in the event of an active shooter. Teachers should first, try and get all students out of the building (Would you tell your kid to stay in a building if the threat of fire was there? Why is the threat if a shooter any different?) If that is not an option they need to hide. If the are found they need to be prepared to do ANYTHING to keep from getting shot. Throwing stuff, kicking, grabbing something to hit with (broom)

Bottom line, some will be shot. But, I would rather my kid ( if they can't get out) be part a collective effort to stop the shooter by throwing stuff and being a moving target trying to make a run for it then sitting in a corner waiting their turn as the watch their friends get blown away one by one.

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Old 08-14-2013, 04:46 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by garada3 View Post

So at "meet the teacher" be sure to have your child's teacher put them at the top of the list to rush the gunman. Don't like that idea? As a parent i sure don't and I feel that such a list is wrong.

Current crisis plan involves students moving into the corner of the room furthest from the door and sitting on the floor out of view. Teachers must check hallway for students, close and lock door, and turn off lights, monitors and smartboards and then join students to ensure silence.

In order to rush the intruder, students would have to extricate themselves from the group of 32 huddled on the floor and move across the room to the door. Imagine the anxiety for those on the list if they are told to be at the front of the group!

Having to pick the child at the front of the group is just an inappropriate task to place on teachers' shoulders. We do not know how a child will react in a true crisis,what if I pick the wrong child for the task and lives are lost?

I pray that these lock down drills remain drills and never have to be implemented, at my school, at your school or at any school ever again.
That is why ALL kids should be trained. Elementary aged should listen to their trained teacher to evacuate first. Hide/barricade second and be moving targets running for the door if all else fails. Middle/High should do the same while being prepared that they may have to throw stuff or fight in order to get out.

Asking students to be sitting ducks in a dangerous situation should not be an option.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:52 PM   #50
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That 'lockdown' procedure is all well and good IF the threat is outside the building. However, that would be the wrong thing to do if the threat was IN the building.

There is a new school of thought (no pun intended) that the safest thing to do in the event of an active shooter is to first, GET OUT if you can. Hide/barricade if you can't get out and Lastly, fight back as a last resort. In short... Don't be a sitting duck and wait your turn to be shot.
Years ago when my daughter was in grade school they had a safety meeting for the parents about what the schools plans, etc... were at least what they could share. One of the things that stuck out to me was the plan was to basically evacuate the kids by any means necessary (i.e. you have to shove them out a window - you shove them out the window type of thing)...because they talked with the police, etc... and basically if they were locked down in a darkened room - they were sitting ducks. If they were evacuating, yes there could be some tragedies but less than there would be if a gunman came into a classroom and started shooting -- pretty easy to shoot several people who are all clustered together, a lot harder when it is a moving target and/or most of them aren't in the building. There was already an established protocal agreements to become safe areas with local churches/business, etc... so it wasn't as if the kids were running around randomly. It stuck out because it was 100% the opposite what was typical protocol of the day. It made perfect sense to me though.

Now I don't know if it is the same plan as that was years ago and as we know life changes fast nowadays with different scenerios. I know they do lockdowns also though but usually that is something that is happening in the neighborhood nearby - it happened this year where there was a traffic stop near a school that escalted into an altercation, etc... and basically the school near there went into lockdown.

I think the kids take it in stride, just like the fire drill, tornado drill and bus safety evacuation drill they have to do every single year.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by garada3 View Post
So at "meet the teacher" be sure to have your child's teacher put them at the top of the list to rush the gunman. Don't like that idea? As a parent i sure don't and I feel that such a list is wrong.

Current crisis plan involves students moving into the corner of the room furthest from the door and sitting on the floor out of view. Teachers must check hallway for students, close and lock door, and turn off lights, monitors and smartboards and then join students to ensure silence.

In order to rush the intruder, students would have to extricate themselves from the group of 32 huddled on the floor and move across the room to the door. Imagine the anxiety for those on the list if they are told to be at the front of the group!

Having to pick the child at the front of the group is just an inappropriate task to place on teachers' shoulders. We do not know how a child will react in a true crisis,what if I pick the wrong child for the task and lives are lost?

I pray that these lock down drills remain drills and never have to be implemented, at my school, at your school or at any school ever again.
I hate to burst your bubble, but in the event such a horrific event takes place, and the door fails, those kids clustered in the back just became target practice. At that point, sans any counter attack, you are ALL goners.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:10 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post
I hate to burst your bubble, but in the event such a horrific event takes place, and the door fails, those kids clustered in the back just became target practice. At that point, sans any counter attack, you are ALL goners.
Yep.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Gumbo4x4 View Post

I hate to burst your bubble, but in the event such a horrific event takes place, and the door fails, those kids clustered in the back just became target practice. At that point, sans any counter attack, you are ALL goners.
You just pointed out the importance of trained teachers. The teachers will have to be the ones that get the kids moving. Also, if you have trained mindset for that kind of situation, your risk for freezing under pressure drops significantly. Hopefully teachers/ students will go on autopilot with all the training....
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:18 PM   #54
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We live in Australia and my DD7 has woken screaming several times since the Sandy Hook tragedy. Always saying a bad man had come into their school and tried to kill her and her friends. Such an awful thing for innocent kids to have to think and worry about
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DVCJones View Post
...umm, because you would rather your child be a sitting duck with no other options....?

As a teacher and a mom to two school aged children and a husband in law enforcement, I can tell you without any doubt the traditional lockdown does not work in the event of an active shooter. Teachers should first, try and get all students out of the building (Would you tell your kid to stay in a building if the threat of fire was there? Why is the threat if a shooter any different?) If that is not an option they need to hide. If the are found they need to be prepared to do ANYTHING to keep from getting shot. Throwing stuff, kicking, grabbing something to hit with (broom)

Bottom line, some will be shot. But, I would rather my kid ( if they can't get out) be part a collective effort to stop the shooter by throwing stuff and being a moving target trying to make a run for it then sitting in a corner waiting their turn as the watch their friends get blown away one by one.

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The crisis plan oulined in my post is established district policy, stay in your locked darkened classroom. What is the crisis plan in your school district? Is it flee first?

I looked at the link you included. Definitely a different approach to what is currently in place.

I can understand the request for a collective effort and hope that the courage could be found for all to respond together. However, the teachers have been asked to designate particular students for the task of attacking the intruder once they enter the classroom. No mention of any collective effort, just the designation of one student per class.

Last edited by garada3; 08-14-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:33 PM   #56
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The crisis plan oulined in my post is established district policy, stay in your locked darkened classroom. What is the crisis plan in your school district? Is it flee first?

I looked at the link you included.

I can understand the request for a collective effort and hope that the courage could be found for all to respond together. However, the teachers have been asked to designate particular students for the task of attacking the intruder once they enter the classroom.
I agree with you. Students should be taught to fight back in a situation like that and how to do it. All of them. For a teacher to pick four students and tell them that they're going to be the ones to rush a gunman should such an event happen is unreasonable, in my opinion. There's no way to know who would step up in a situation like that and who would cower. Which is why they should all be taught. What, are they going to pull those four students out for special training? Just does not seem like a good idea.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:37 PM   #57
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I was one of the kids who was taught to 'duck and cover' in the '60s. Of course, knowing what we all know now, we might as well have been told to go out and play in the schoolyard. In the event of a nuclear attack on a nearby site, we all would have been equally dead.

Just saying' that all the scary issues did not originate in this century! Kids learn to cope.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:45 PM   #58
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I hate to burst your bubble, but in the event such a horrific event takes place, and the door fails, those kids clustered in the back just became target practice. At that point, sans any counter attack, you are ALL goners.
You are not bursting my bubble. The thought goes through my mind whenever we practice drills, or I have to answer a student 's question about if they are safe at school or another tragedy happens. I have taken inventory in my class of other steps I could take to protect my students.

But assigning a 12 year old to attack an armed intruder?
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:50 PM   #59
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When I was in school, we were taught the old lockdown plans. Close the blinds, lock the door, turn off the lights, and sit quietly. We even stayed sitting at our desks. Shocking, right?

I am glad that kids are being taught to fight back. I really think that would take a shooter by surprise. Picking just a handful of students to be attackers, though? That doesn't sit well with me. I think if all of the students were fighting together, they would draw strength from each other.

Regarding evacuating... this is a new concept to me as it goes against everything taught to me for years. My question is, where do you go? What if the students are evacuating safe buildings into a courtyard area where the shooter happens to be? Maybe the intercom could be used to say where the intruder is?

I also grew up and live in a rural area. There is nothing around the schools here but houses and woods. Evacuating to safe businesses and churches is a great idea, if available.

ETA: I think it also needs to be said that students should be informed that the intruder won't necessarily be an adult man, as often depicted and assumed by many kids. More than likely, the shooter will be a fellow student.

In all, it's awful that our kids even need to think about this. In a perfect world, my son would only be concerned with learning how to handle the monkey bars on the playground.
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:40 PM   #60
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When I was in school, we were taught the old lockdown plans. Close the blinds, lock the door, turn off the lights, and sit quietly. We even stayed sitting at our desks. Shocking, right?

I am glad that kids are being taught to fight back. I really think that would take a shooter by surprise. Picking just a handful of students to be attackers, though? That doesn't sit well with me. I think if all of the students were fighting together, they would draw strength from each other.

Regarding evacuating... this is a new concept to me as it goes against everything taught to me for years. My question is, where do you go? What if the students are evacuating safe buildings into a courtyard area where the shooter happens to be? Maybe the intercom could be used to say where the intruder is?

I also grew up and live in a rural area. There is nothing around the schools here but houses and woods. Evacuating to safe businesses and churches is a great idea, if available.
I would definitely think the us against them mentality would help and the sheer volume of amount fighting back would help. I'm no expert but I would imagine most school shooters are not expecting anyone to put up a fight be it teachers, students, custodians, lunch room workers, whatever. They are expecting to be able to take people out easily -- that's what I would think anyway...most of them would be too cowardly to get into a fist fight (although I have no clue).

As for the evacuation, yes it would really depend on the school area, etc... I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be comfortable with it if it was dense woods and someone could get super lost in them or something. We are more suburban and the church is used for tons of things socially here plus now there is a fire station next door to the school (that wasn't there when my daughter was in school it was just grass)...the kids could be at the fire station in just a couple minutes without crossing any streets. I'm not sure what the other schools in our area do as they aren't quite as close to other buildings but I'm sure they have a plan. Our school district keeps us very well informed -- tons & tons of e-mails whenever anything happens even if it to me is trivial. Since I have kids in all schools -- I'm on all the mailing lists...I've been known to get something 4+ times.
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