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Old 07-09-2013, 03:41 PM   #91
Spacedog1975
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Originally Posted by Topper View Post
Can you take and post a picture of this "chiseling" on the so-called "forever" mugs?
Can we take 5 seconds to use the tool that we're already connected through before antagonizing one another? Facts are easily unearthed:

Lifetime Mug References

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Old 07-09-2013, 03:49 PM   #92
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So basically what used to be 14.99 for the length of your stay is now for 3 days and you need to pay an extra $3 to have it length of stay. Kind of hitting guests in the wallet again. Unless you are only staying a few days.

I don't fault Disney as it is a $$ issue, especially given all the mugs I see still being used from the 1980's. At least you can use them at any QS resort location. Note to self. Increase budget for trip by $20.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:49 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Spacedog1975 View Post
Can we take 5 seconds to use the tool that we're already connected through before antagonizing one another. Facts are easily unearthed:

Lifetime Mug References
Interestingly, I DID do a search, and all I can find is that there is no such language on the mugs, but rather a lack of any language. And people being told at the time they purchased them that they were good for a lifetime (of the mug, presumably), but not necessarily any official language to it that I could find...
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:47 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Interestingly, I DID do a search, and all I can find is that there is no such language on the mugs, but rather a lack of any language. And people being told at the time they purchased them that they were good for a lifetime (of the mug, presumably), but not necessarily any official language to it that I could find...
You're right that there is no photographic evidence, but plenty of people indicating that this is how the mugs were sold to them.

Every mug that I have bought has been "length of stay". I have no memory of getting refillable mugs in 1991 or 1980.

I try to do 7-8 days when I go to Disney, and the length of stay option (especially with DDP) is a value for me. I don't have a problem with not reusing prior mugs. I would prefer it if they could either be reactivated or redesigned.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:18 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by EAWildman View Post
Ok, perhaps we are some odd exception. We live in Georgia, so we are not local. We have stayed up to 25 days at WDW with annual passes and have ALWAYS stayed on property, though we could always stay offsite too.
Sure but there are also tens-of-thousands--perhaps hundreds-of-thousands--of Passholders with very different patterns. Some make near daily visits to the parks and could refill an "annual" mug hundreds of times.

If Disney offers an "annual" mug, they can't differentiate between you using it 25 days and someone else who will use it 300+ days per year.

Clearly there are many different approaches Disney COULD have taken involving re-use of the same mug, more than 14 days, minimal fees fro refills, refills in theme parks, etc. There's never going to be a one-size-fits-all solution.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:01 PM   #96
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You know, Doc's comment actually lit a light bulb for me on what might be the simpliest way for disney to offer a cheaper "re-use" option.

since the mug design itself never changes, I don't see any reason they can't place chips in lids they can sell for a little less money to help encourage reuse/recycling older mugs. A guest comes in with an older mug from a previous trip (even a DVC or AP holder), Disney sells them a new lid for slightly less than what the new mug costs (even if it's just a 10% discount from the new mug cost), And then the guest will now have lid which enables the RFID fountains to work on their old mugs.


The biggest issues with this idea would be if there actually is a health code reason for the lack of re-activation options so far, and the fact that lids can be easily misplaced or left at a table when a guest goes for the refill. (which also brings to mind another question on what the range of the fountains are, and if it would be a pain to hold the lid near enough the machine to get your refill)
Instead of charging for a new something just reactivate the RFID tag. Easy peasy.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:22 PM   #97
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Just my .02, but I am not thrilled that Disney will now keep track of how many times I get a drink. Are they going to track next how many times I go to the bathroom? I am not big on conspiracy theories, but we will walk to the Hess station and bring back water, beer, and coke to just keep in our room. Much less than two mugs would cost.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:39 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by darnheather View Post
Instead of charging for a new something just reactivate the RFID tag. Easy peasy.
Except they are very specifically disallowing this.

It isn't a technological issue though. Activating an old ID should be just as easy as activating a new one. There must be a different reason.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:39 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by darnheather View Post
Instead of charging for a new something just reactivate the RFID tag. Easy peasy.
I'm going to assume that MAYBE part of their reasoning for not doing so currently could be related to a security or technical concern.... such as either concern over the life expectancy of the RFID chips [either design life due to a powered active design, or maybe even concerns of robustness from things like people washing their mugs at home in a dishwasher and potential damage to the chip depending upon it's placement in the cup].... or the risk of someone hacking or cloning the RFID chips within cups that have spent significant time outside of Disney's possession.

There could also be a training, customer service, or system limitation in place currently that could make it difficult to simply reactivate an old mug.

Training: adding another set of complications to the cashier training regarding verifying the mug is RFID compliant and then how to ring up and reactivate it for whatever time frame the customer desires.

Customer Service: Currently if your mug doesn't read or work, Disney can just swap it out and give you a new one since the old one was defective on their watch. If a re-activated mug doesn't read or won't work, It brings up a whole slew of technical support issues [why won't it read/work], and would limit their ability to 'make it right' easily. [refund your reactivation price? ok.... but then you would need to pay more to get a new cup.].

System Limitation: How is the POS and RFID System set up? Will each cup have a totally unique RFID identifier? Or because they are cups with a max 14day 'lifespan', is Disney just going to cycle between a small number of RFID's with the basic assumption that the odds of having 2 guests on site, with a new active mug, during the same 14 day period, would be astronomical.... but the odds greatly increase for a ID Collision if older mugs are brought back onsite after their initial expiration.

Or maybe it's a POS limitation in how valid ID's are stored in the database and activated. Maybe a Central warehouse or each resort loads each shipment into inventory for the POS system upon receipt, with old inventory set to either self destruct from the database after it's authorization period ends or be 'cleaned up' from the database after a set time period. Either way, it would make sense to try and keep the database 'clean' in order to improve system performance and safe on storage needs. It would then also be logical that maybe the POS systems the cashiers use are unable to add an RFID to the database, but are only able to update an existing record.



Now.... I could also see most of these issues becoming much more of a moot point as they expand the Magicband system. They may then decide to start tying your drink refills to your Magicband (RFID Tickets) instead of the mug itself, which could very easily make it much more likely that they could offer a "old mug use" type pricing.... even if it turns out to be a direct fountain-initiated per-refill charge. [IE. You have your room charge privileges or charge card tied to your Magicband, so for a drink refill you could bypass a cashier and just walk up to the self serve soda fountain. The system would then read your Magicband and charge $1 to your account for a one-time-refill ]
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:49 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
I'm going to assume that MAYBE part of their reasoning for not doing so currently could be related to a security or technical concern.... such as either concern over the life expectancy of the RFID chips [either design life due to a powered active design, or maybe even concerns of robustness from things like people washing their mugs at home in a dishwasher and potential damage to the chip depending upon it's placement in the cup].... or the risk of someone hacking or cloning the RFID chips within cups that have spent significant time outside of Disney's possession.
Now that is something I hadn't thought of...I don't think they'd use an active chip (raises costs when not needed), but the idea of being able to clone IDs, attach them to other mugs, then go back and re-activate the original.

Still, not something typically possible by Joe Guest.


Quote:
Training: adding another set of complications to the cashier training regarding verifying the mug is RFID compliant and then how to ring up and reactivate it for whatever time frame the customer desires.
Doesn't seem like that should be an issue though. Read the mug's chip, push a button. Shouldn't matter new or old.

Quote:
Customer Service: Currently if your mug doesn't read or work, Disney can just swap it out and give you a new one since the old one was defective on their watch. If a re-activated mug doesn't read or won't work, It brings up a whole slew of technical support issues [why won't it read/work], and would limit their ability to 'make it right' easily. [refund your reactivation price? ok.... but then you would need to pay more to get a new cup.].
Again, I'm not sure it would matter much...just swap it out for a new mug. If the old mug failed after activation, THAT could be complicated it determining what its ID was to do the swap, if there isn't another code that can be human read on it, to get the entitlements left. Or, in the name of customer service, just give them a 14-day cup and not worry about it.

Quote:
System Limitation: How is the POS and RFID System set up? Will each cup have a totally unique RFID identifier? Or because they are cups with a max 14day 'lifespan', is Disney just going to cycle between a small number of RFID's with the basic assumption that the odds of having 2 guests on site, with a new active mug, during the same 14 day period, would be astronomical.... but the odds greatly increase for a ID Collision if older mugs are brought back onsite after their initial expiration.
RFIDs can be made to be unique to such a degree that you should never need to worry about collisions. I deal with systems that generate "Universally Unique IDs", and as long as you do it right there should never be a collision.

Quote:
Or maybe it's a POS limitation in how valid ID's are stored in the database and activated. Maybe a Central warehouse or each resort loads each shipment into inventory for the POS system upon receipt, with old inventory set to either self destruct from the database after it's authorization period ends or be 'cleaned up' from the database after a set time period. Either way, it would make sense to try and keep the database 'clean' in order to improve system performance and safe on storage needs. It would then also be logical that maybe the POS systems the cashiers use are unable to add an RFID to the database, but are only able to update an existing record.
Hmmm...following the KISS model, I wouldn't pre-load IDs into a database. I'd just have a database of active IDs and when they expire. At POS, you scan the ID, the guest makes the purchase, and it is inserted into the database. After expiration it is removed. Keep the DB as small as possible.

Then again, Disney must be the masters of keeping information like that in perpetuity, since there are still all those ancient non expiring tickets out there that they have to keep the information on...
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:51 PM   #101
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Except they are very specifically disallowing this.

It isn't a technological issue though. Activating an old ID should be just as easy as activating a new one. There must be a different reason.
Actually, i can think of a couple very simple technological reasons.... although they are somewhat self imposed tech reasons. (I'm repeating some of what I said above).

1. To save costs Disney designed the mug RFID system with a much smaller number of potential RFID identifiers.... like maybe only 512k potential IDs. With a 14 day max time to Live on a mug, the odds of having 2 mugs with the same ID active at the same time is small, with the worst case a minimal chance of guests noticing if 2 mugs with the same ID get activated at the same time [an extra day or 2 of soda.... or the fountain not working the first time you try and refill it but then shortly thereafter, which may not even be an issue if they keep the 'refill lockout' local and not resort wide....]. If they however started having a bunch of old 'expired' mugs brought back into the system the chances of multiple mugs with the same ID number start increasing dramatically.

2. If the POS systems used by the cashiers when you purchase a mug do not have the ability to insert a new RFID into the database, but can only update an existing ID's status.... with all RFID's added to the database/inventory behind the scenes with a process in place to delete old ID's from the database automatically to maintain system performance.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Now that is something I hadn't thought of...I don't think they'd use an active chip (raises costs when not needed), but the idea of being able to clone IDs, attach them to other mugs, then go back and re-activate the original.

Still, not something typically possible by Joe Guest.
We are talking about a place where you have a virtual cottage industry set up of people charging others to help "con the system". From sales of used tickets, to selling AAA Diamond parking passes on EBAY, to all manner of GAC scams. With the ease of coding an RFID chip if you have the right know-how and equiptment, I could see someone popping up online offering to sell the average guest the cloned mugs...... And all sorts of ignorant guests thinking they found a way to save some money on their Disney Vacation paying these people the money to get them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Again, I'm not sure it would matter much...just swap it out for a new mug. If the old mug failed after activation, THAT could be complicated it determining what its ID was to do the swap, if there isn't another code that can be human read on it, to get the entitlements left. Or, in the name of customer service, just give them a 14-day cup and not worry about it.
Disney already gets crap and accused of all sorts of things with things that aren't their fault, and are expected to fix it.... including people yelling and complaining simply to try and get something for nothing. If this RFID drink thing is truly designed to try and control costs, then opening up another door for abuse would almost seem counter intuitive.




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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
RFIDs can be made to be unique to such a degree that you should never need to worry about collisions. I deal with systems that generate "Universally Unique IDs", and as long as you do it right there should never be a collision.
Yes, They CAN be made to be unique to such a degree.... but would Disney want too? It's one thing when they design a system such as the MagicBand which is attached to an admission ticket worth hundreds of dollars and which is expected to generate additional revenue or is tied into so many different systems internally. It's another when designing a small chip designed to be embedded in a cheap 'disposable' item that is being sold inexpensively and is used to help control access to another item that has a cost associated with it.

That extra $.10 in memory to store the larger integer may not seem like much, but when you factor in the percentage of the mugs retail cost that is designed to cover the mug cost, and how much is designed to cover the cost of the soda, that $.10 could end up being a larger bite into the expected profit per refillable mug sale.

Also, figure that small incremental cost spread out among the millions of mugs they would be purchasing. Even in the industry I work in it is a HUGE deal to convince them to add another 512k of ram to our device's spec because the cost increase while negligable, becomes a HUGE capital expenditure when you multiply it by the millions of devices we will purchase at once.


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Hmmm...following the KISS model, I wouldn't pre-load IDs into a database. I'd just have a database of active IDs and when they expire. At POS, you scan the ID, the guest makes the purchase, and it is inserted into the database. After expiration it is removed. Keep the DB as small as possible.

It depends somewhat on the security side of things. Who know what kind of write access the are setting up their POS systems to have into the database? What kind of precautions do they want to have against fraud built into the system?

Sometimes your concerns for security, fraud, or theft, will by themselves prevent a basic KISS design.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:16 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
Again, I'm not sure it would matter much...just swap it out for a new mug. If the old mug failed after activation, THAT could be complicated it determining what its ID was to do the swap, if there isn't another code that can be human read on it, to get the entitlements left. Or, in the name of customer service, just give them a 14-day cup and not worry about it.
(This relates to the re-using of older mugs rather than issuing new ones.)

My assumption is that guests who wish to re-activate an old mug would expect some sort of price break. Otherwise, there's really no need to support re-activation at all. Very, VERY few guests would ever return with an old mug if charged the same $18 fee as a guest receiving a brand new one. The re-users are going to expect to pay $10-12, or some other lesser fee.

With that stated assumption, we have to acknowledge that some component of the RFID tag will eventually fail. Power loss...damage from use...damage from dishwasher, etc.

So Disney is then placed in a position of deciding how long to offer complimentary replacements while still charging the lesser fee.

I buy four mugs in 2013 for $18 each. Five years later I return with the mugs in-hand, hoping to pay $10 to have each re-activated. But the batteries on the RFID tag have long since failed and the print on each is barely legible after dozens of trips through the dishwasher.

Is it fair to expect that Disney will only charge me the $10 (x4) re-activation fee AND give me four brand new mugs with RFID chips that actually work?
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:22 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
Actually, i can think of a couple very simple technological reasons.... although they are somewhat self imposed tech reasons. (I'm repeating some of what I said above).

1. To save costs Disney designed the mug RFID system with a much smaller number of potential RFID identifiers.... like maybe only 512k potential IDs. With a 14 day max time to Live on a mug, the odds of having 2 mugs with the same ID active at the same time is small, with the worst case a minimal chance of guests noticing if 2 mugs with the same ID get activated at the same time [an extra day or 2 of soda.... or the fountain not working the first time you try and refill it but then shortly thereafter, which may not even be an issue if they keep the 'refill lockout' local and not resort wide....]. If they however started having a bunch of old 'expired' mugs brought back into the system the chances of multiple mugs with the same ID number start increasing dramatically.
I already answered somewhat from your previous post, but this part does have some potential reasons...given that the IDs need to be available to all drink stations resort wide, depending on how they are linked and their ability to deal with "disconnection", you'd want a small database. But as I said above, you ONLY need the database to contain the list of active IDs and their expiration (and I guess the last fill time if recent). If I'm building this for redundancy, each resort has a copy of the DB, copied from a master which is what the POS updates. If the master is unavailable, it just means they can add IDs, but everything still works locally with the most recent update. (A more complicated system gets around the master unavailability issue).

Or go with the one central DB. If you can't reach it, the fill station simply reads the ID to know it's a compatible mug, then defaults to allowing the fill, and locally keeps track for lockout purposes. Guests would have no idea unless they intentionally tried a mug that wasn't paid for.


And to answer your most recent followup...the incremental cost to store a UUID is not very high - pretty insignificant, actually. And pretty much the same for the RFID chip end...it's just a sequence of characters, and depending on the character set used, doesn't need to be terribly long either...to get technical, I think it is said that IPv6, which uses a 128-bit address, provides enough addresses to have one for every square foot of Earth, or something like that. That's only 16 bytes of storage per. How many mugs will actually be active at any one time?
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:26 PM   #105
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(This relates to the re-using of older mugs rather than issuing new ones.)

My assumption is that guests who wish to re-activate an old mug would expect some sort of price break. Otherwise, there's really no need to support re-activation at all. Very, VERY few guests would ever return with an old mug if charged the same $18 fee as a guest receiving a brand new one. The re-users are going to expect to pay $10-12, or some other lesser fee.

With that stated assumption, we have to acknowledge that some component of the RFID tag will eventually fail. Power loss...damage from use...damage from dishwasher, etc.

So Disney is then placed in a position of deciding how long to offer complimentary replacements while still charging the lesser fee.

I buy four mugs in 2013 for $18 each. Five years later I return with the mugs in-hand, hoping to pay $10 to have each re-activated. But the batteries on the RFID tag have long since failed and the print on each is barely legible after dozens of trips through the dishwasher.

Is it fair to expect that Disney will only charge me the $10 (x4) re-activation fee AND give me four brand new mugs with RFID chips that actually work?
Well, if giving them a "re-use discount" (although some seemed to indicate they didn't care), then a replacement mug can be sold at a nominal fee.
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