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Old 06-26-2013, 01:31 PM   #136
zippingalong
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There are no easy answers.

But, legally I believe she belongs with the Capobiancos. Her birth mother chose them, they took care of birth mother and V when no one else did. They love her and can give her a stable home.

Letting her stay with her father is no different than a biological parent kidnapping a child and running away. Would you find them two years later and say, "Well, he loves her and she forgot her old home, so let him just keep her."?

He had no legal right to take her from the only family she knew.

Last edited by zippingalong; 06-26-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:37 PM   #137
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I feel horribly for her birth mother. She tried to give her daughter a chance at a better life and is watching her being the center of a legal firestorm. She could've not told the bio father. She could've surrendered her at a safe haven. Now, her daughter is being punished for her honesty. If I'm ever raped I feel like abortion would be my only option thanks to stories like this.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:48 PM   #138
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I'm an adoptive parent as well. Every adoptive parent I have ever met knows exceedingly well the exact legal status of their child at any time. We adopted internationally, and our adoption wasn't finalized for 7 months after we were home. I knew full well that during those 7 months, if something happened, my child could be taken from me. It's not until the adoption is finalized that you are truly that child's parent. Until it's finalized, you are their guardian. Period. My understanding is that this adoption was never finalized.

One of my favorite adoption quotes is "a child born to another woman calls me mommy. The magnitude of that tragedy and the depth of that privilige are not lost on my" - Jody Landers
I can't imagine if the adoptive parents do get Veronica how they will possibly explain their action to her. I felt it was 100% my responsibility to ensure that my son's adoption was legal and ethical, and that his birth parents - BOTH of them - were 100% commited to the adoption. I can't imagine having to tell my child that his biological father wanted him - fought all the way to the supreme court - and yet we adopted him anyway.
Yes, how would you explain that? I couldn't do it. I'm an adoptive mother. We insisted both parents sign. We had a six months waiting period then finalized.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:57 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DopeyDame View Post
I'm an adoptive parent as well. Every adoptive parent I have ever met knows exceedingly well the exact legal status of their child at any time. We adopted internationally, and our adoption wasn't finalized for 7 months after we were home. I knew full well that during those 7 months, if something happened, my child could be taken from me. It's not until the adoption is finalized that you are truly that child's parent. Until it's finalized, you are their guardian. Period. My understanding is that this adoption was never finalized.

One of my favorite adoption quotes is "a child born to another woman calls me mommy. The magnitude of that tragedy and the depth of that privilige are not lost on my" - Jody Landers
I can't imagine if the adoptive parents do get Veronica how they will possibly explain their action to her. I felt it was 100% my responsibility to ensure that my son's adoption was legal and ethical, and that his birth parents - BOTH of them - were 100% commited to the adoption. I can't imagine having to tell my child that his biological father wanted him - fought all the way to the supreme court - and yet we adopted him anyway.
Doesn't him signing away his parental rights mean that he was fine with letting the birth mother choose what to do with her and in effect saying he was ok with her being put up for adoption?

In what world does "oh, I didn't read the document or understand it" get you out of it?
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:00 PM   #140
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Yes, how would you explain that?
How about "The woman who gave birth to you felt like she wasn't in a position to raise you, so we're trying to give you the best life possible"? I'd rather hear that than "We gave you to this guy against the wishes of the woman who carried you for nine months because his perceived rights were more important than your stability". Seriously, a stable adoptive home is much better than being raised by a single bio dad in a chaotic situation. I say this as someone who's mother considered adoption.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:03 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by DizBelle View Post
Doesn't him signing away his parental rights mean that he was fine with letting the birth mother choose what to do with her and in effect saying he was ok with her being put up for adoption?

In what world does "oh, I didn't read the document or understand it" get you out of it?
So when parents are deployed, and give the other parent of their children the right to make decisions, that includes the decision to place the children for adoption?

My dad went away for a year when I was a kid, because his job sent him to another country. During that year, my mom made all sorts of decisions for us, but if some reason she had stopped being able to or choosing to parent, he would have come home.

He didn't think he was signing away his parental rights, he thought he was signing away custody. The two things are very different.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:07 PM   #142
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So when parents are deployed, and give the other parent of their children the right to make decisions, that includes the decision to place the children for adoption?

My dad went away for a year when I was a kid, because his job sent him to another country. During that year, my mom made all sorts of decisions for us, but if some reason she had stopped being able to or choosing to parent, he would have come home.

He didn't think he was signing away his parental rights, he thought he was signing away custody. The two things are very different.
Did you read the ruling?


He put in text to the birthmother that he would rather give up parental rights to the child than pay support. That wasn't just for his deployment. It was his plan. He should have stuck with it.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:09 PM   #143
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So when parents are deployed, and give the other parent of their children the right to make decisions, that includes the decision to place the children for adoption?
When a woman is pregnant, unmarried, and alone she does have more rights regarding the child. A man who wants to go around having sex better be signing up for putative fathers registries wherever his partners might be if he wants to be ensured a seat at the table. What this woman did was perfectly legal without the misapplied law.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #144
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I have some insite into this type of situation.


A male family friend approached us in 2010 to see if we might be interested in adopting his daughters baby. Daughter was white Roman Catholic a very young 19 with some minor mental health issues. She realized and accepted she would not be a suitable single parent and was living in a home for pregnant and unwed mothers. Marriage between the parents was not an option for them.

Bio-dad was 22 active military and 1/2 Lakota. My husband and I spent over $30,000 in legal and medical fees. We did everything correct. We had to have special types if document service through the jag corp and paid his legal fees. We petitioned the Lakota tribe and were only give permission because I had a letter from a noted Native American studies historian and they recognized my First Nations ethnic heritage. My mothers mother was a full blood Sami (basically the Scandinavian version of Native American).

Additionally the tribe made us agree if we were to divorce I got sole custody of the child. I further had to agree since the child was 1/4 Lakota to educate him about his people and agree to have essentially a cultural tutor once he was a bit older. Had there been any other living relations in good standing they would never have agreed. The discussions were all time consuming and costly. This ICWA definitely applied to the child.

When birth mom was 38 weeks pregnant and all hurdles had been crossed. Bio mom, dad, and tribe were all set for me to adopt the baby. Mom had some labor indicators and ended up having an ultrasound where the sex was revealed to her, until this point she had no idea. The child was a boy. At that point the biological grandfather who was the one who wanted us to adopt, strong armed his daughter into legally keeping the baby and he is raising the child. It has not gone well. At least every 4 months I hear from bio mom asking me to take the boy.

Upon learning we would not be getting the baby I contacted the Lakota to inform them. I further noticed the biological father. As I understand from bio mom the Lakota are suing her for fraud and trying to intervene in the child's custody.

I was lucky enough after 14 years to have a biological child. Even if I had not had my daughter I would never attempt another adoption.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:31 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by zippingalong View Post
Letting her stay with her father is no different than a biological parent kidnapping a child and running away. Would you find them two years later and say, "Well, he loves her and she forgot her old home, so let him just keep her."?
Exactly. I don't understand how people can say the adoptive parents don't have her best interests at heart because they are "ripping" her away from the only home she remembers to have her back. That's exactly what the bio father did in the first place! He never had her best interests at heart.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:42 PM   #146
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Exactly. I don't understand how people can say the adoptive parents don't have her best interests at heart because they are "ripping" her away from the only home she remembers to have her back. That's exactly what the bio father did in the first place!
In the process he also told her that her parents left her with him because they didn't love her anymore. I can't imagine the pain of know your child is in the care of someone like that.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:57 PM   #147
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In the process he also told her that her parents left her with him because they didn't love her anymore. I can't imagine the pain of know your child is in the care of someone like that.

I haven't seen that before. If he said it, he's a more horrible person than I already thought he was.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:08 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akcire View Post
I have some insite into this type of situation.


A male family friend approached us in 2010 to see if we might be interested in adopting his daughters baby. Daughter was white Roman Catholic a very young 19 with some minor mental health issues. She realized and accepted she would not be a suitable single parent and was living in a home for pregnant and unwed mothers. Marriage between the parents was not an option for them.

Bio-dad was 22 active military and 1/2 Lakota. My husband and I spent over $30,000 in legal and medical fees. We did everything correct. We had to have special types if document service through the jag corp and paid his legal fees. We petitioned the Lakota tribe and were only give permission because I had a letter from a noted Native American studies historian and they recognized my First Nations ethnic heritage. My mothers mother was a full blood Sami (basically the Scandinavian version of Native American).

Additionally the tribe made us agree if we were to divorce I got sole custody of the child. I further had to agree since the child was 1/4 Lakota to educate him about his people and agree to have essentially a cultural tutor once he was a bit older. Had there been any other living relations in good standing they would never have agreed. The discussions were all time consuming and costly. This ICWA definitely applied to the child.

When birth mom was 38 weeks pregnant and all hurdles had been crossed. Bio mom, dad, and tribe were all set for me to adopt the baby. Mom had some labor indicators and ended up having an ultrasound where the sex was revealed to her, until this point she had no idea. The child was a boy. At that point the biological grandfather who was the one who wanted us to adopt, strong armed his daughter into legally keeping the baby and he is raising the child. It has not gone well. At least every 4 months I hear from bio mom asking me to take the boy.

Upon learning we would not be getting the baby I contacted the Lakota to inform them. I further noticed the biological father. As I understand from bio mom the Lakota are suing her for fraud and trying to intervene in the child's custody.

I was lucky enough after 14 years to have a biological child. Even if I had not had my daughter I would never attempt another adoption.
Congratulations on your daughter!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Happily, not all adoptions go the way that yours did.

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I haven't seen that before. If he said it, he's a more horrible person than I already thought he was.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:38 AM   #149
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The thing about the Supreme Court is that, in this instance, on this decision, they are acting like the "activist" judges that some folks are always on about.

The ICWA, to my understanding, was never about the the good of the individual children in question. It was put into place for the good of the tribes. The justices completely ignored this and pretended that the ICWA should be about the good of the child and the preservation of Indian families - but that was never its purpose.

Look back when the law was written. There were plenty of children who were eligible for membership into their tribes who had been adopted at birth into loving middle class homes that were White and were being raised as White. Following ICWA, those children still probably had a decent placement, but many likely had a family with far less monetary, educational and other sociological advantages - but were raised up as members of their tribe. The ICWA was written to preserve the tribes and to stop adoptions in which a child would lose tribal identity.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:46 AM   #150
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Per the Supreme Court's decision- they ruled that ICWA was created to keep Indian Families from being torn apart.

Veronica was not part of an Indian family. She had been abandoned by her father. ICWA should not have applied in the case.
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