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Old 06-12-2013, 12:12 PM   #196
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So, while I can understand and appreciate that you work 50+ hours during your school year, I would also hope that you understand and appreciate that I am in IT, and spent about 10 years working 60 - 80 hour weeks every week of the year. I didn't get summers off, and I didn't get paid for that extra time. It's not an unusual situation any more for people to be expected to work more hours during the week than they are paid for by salary, which is probably why there isn't too much sympathy out there for teachers when they complain about it. We all do it, it's life. Yes, you're doing something nice for a child going on vacation, but it's not anything above and beyond what I'm expected to do every week.
I'll bet the starting salary in IT is double what it is for a teacher. And, this "teachers get the summers off" thing has got to stop. Yeah, they get the summer off--without pay.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by ColoradoDisneyFreaks View Post

So, while I can understand and appreciate that you work 50+ hours during your school year, I would also hope that you understand and appreciate that I am in IT, and spent about 10 years working 60 - 80 hour weeks every week of the year. I didn't get summers off, and I didn't get paid for that extra time. It's not an unusual situation any more for people to be expected to work more hours during the week than they are paid for by salary, which is probably why there isn't too much sympathy out there for teachers when they complain about it. We all do it, it's life. Yes, you're doing something nice for a child going on vacation, but it's not anything above and beyond what I'm expected to do every week.
I bet in IT you got paid more than a teacher does.

Oops: someone just pointed that out.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:32 PM   #198
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I'll bet the starting salary in IT is double what it is for a teacher. And, this "teachers get the summers off" thing has got to stop. Yeah, they get the summer off--without pay.
People who get paid salary don't usually get paid for time off. It's not just teachers. It is part of the salary agreement. It just so happens that most people get 2 - 3 weeks off while teachers get 8 - 10 weeks + 2 week long breaks. As far as working through summer vacation, I think most salaried employees do some sort of work while on "vacation".
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:38 PM   #199
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I'll bet the starting salary in IT is double what it is for a teacher. And, this "teachers get the summers off" thing has got to stop. Yeah, they get the summer off--without pay.
True, but teachers get paid more than janitors, or secretaries, and you don't ever get called at 2:00am because a job or a server crashed. In all cases, that's the choice that we made when we chose our career. One of the things that I accept about working in IT is that we do changes after hours, and project managers always budget about half the time I need to get a task done so it requires working more than 8 hours a day.

My point isn't to belittle the effort that teachers make, and I do think they aren't paid enough, my point is that trying to ephasize that you're expected to do this on your own time isn't going to garner points with everyone, because we are all working jobs where we're expected to do work on our own time so it's not that unusual.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:43 PM   #200
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True, but teachers get paid more than janitors, or secretaries, and you don't ever get called at 2:00am because a job or a server crashed. In all cases, that's the choice that we made when we chose our career. One of the things that I accept about working in IT is that we do changes after hours, and project managers always budget about half the time I need to get a task done so it requires working more than 8 hours a day.

My point isn't to belittle the effort that teachers make, and I do think they aren't paid enough, my point is that trying to ephasize that you're expected to do this on your own time isn't going to garner points with everyone, because we are all working jobs where we're expected to do work on our own time so it's not that unusual.
I think it's important to point out though that while many of us may work extra hours overtime and that time is unpaid, part of the reason isn't usually so that a family can go on vacation. It's usually because we are doing required work at our jobs that takes us more time to complete than what's provided in our daily work schedule.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:50 PM   #201
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I'll bet the starting salary in IT is double what it is for a teacher. And, this "teachers get the summers off" thing has got to stop. Yeah, they get the summer off--without pay.
And one other note, if you're salaried, you are paid a yearly salary, just because the paychecks are broken out over 9 months rather then 12 doesn't mean it's not a yearly salary. That's a budgeting issue, not a payment issue.

The biggest thing that happens is that folks get so super defensive about the whole issue. When someone asks about taking kids out of school, there's always teachers that chime in and talk about the extra work. Like I've pointed out, to me, I appreciate that it's being done for my child, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to request it. I do it every day in my life too, and it's expected of me.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:55 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by ColoradoDisneyFreaks View Post

True, but teachers get paid more than janitors, or secretaries, and you don't ever get called at 2:00am because a job or a server crashed. In all cases, that's the choice that we made when we chose our career. One of the things that I accept about working in IT is that we do changes after hours, and project managers always budget about half the time I need to get a task done so it requires working more than 8 hours a day.

My point isn't to belittle the effort that teachers make, and I do think they aren't paid enough, my point is that trying to ephasize that you're expected to do this on your own time isn't going to garner points with everyone, because we are all working jobs where we're expected to do work on our own time so it's not that unusual.
I've worked in IT before, so I completely understand where you're coming from. IT workers are expected to work miracles and suffer abuse from rude customers. But aside from teaching, I never had a job where I wasn't either paid or compensated via PTO for extra work, including IT work. I'm not saying it isn't happening in your case, just that it's not an acceptable practice for me. Thus, one of the reasons I'm not a teacher anymore. All said and done, at my last teaching job I was paid less than $5.00 an hour when I calculated pay vs hours worked (and no insurance). And because it happens in other fields doesn't make it right. In fact, in at some of my other jobs we were told not to clock out late OR stay late "off the clock" (to avoid overtime) and to take all required breaks, lest the company pay fines for not conforming to labor laws. So not ALL jobs require people to work for free. And those that do are technically in violation of labor laws, at least here in FL. Except for schools, that is.

Edited to add: when I say I'm no longer a teacher, I mean I'm no longer PAID to teach. I homeschool my children and will always consider myself a teacher. It gets in the blood
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:00 PM   #203
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We have opted to pull our daughter out every year for a week until this year. 3rd grade in Florida and the FCAT (pass test or fail 3rd grade) we wanted her to be in school as much as possible. We did pull her out for a 3-night. DH and I both work in tourism, at WDW. Taking vacations during her breaks is next to impossible. As long as her grades remain good, it's back to a week long cruise this fall. We always send a note to her principal, teacher, and get work to keep her up to speed. Family time is so important. So is learning outside the classroom!
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:02 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by ColoradoDisneyFreaks View Post

So, while I can understand and appreciate that you work 50+ hours during your school year, I would also hope that you understand and appreciate that I am in IT, and spent about 10 years working 60 - 80 hour weeks every week of the year. I didn't get summers off, and I didn't get paid for that extra time. It's not an unusual situation any more for people to be expected to work more hours during the week than they are paid for by salary, which is probably why there isn't too much sympathy out there for teachers when they complain about it. We all do it, it's life. Yes, you're doing something nice for a child going on vacation, but it's not anything above and beyond what I'm expected to do every week.
It all depends on what company you work for. When I used to be in IT and on salary, all the companies I used to work for would give you overtime for anything above the normal 40 hour work week. You usually banked the time. You can use it for time off or get paid out. You said there are a lot of jobs that require you to work free overtime. Well there are lots that pay for overtime above your salary. Teachers never get paid for the 20 or 30 hours they work extra each week. If you have never taught, then you have no idea on what teachers have to deal with.

Sorry for going off topic,
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:06 PM   #205
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I am not saying 28 days, that is very excessive and there should be reasonable limits. Who even gets 28 days of vacation to take?

I am thinking of the average family that gets 2-3 weeks a year and due to work schedules, finances, what have you cannot take a vacation during school breaks. That amounts to a maximum of 15 school days, but with school schedules being what they are with half days where virtually no education happens once a week, we are now down to a maximum of 12 educational days. As I said in my other posts, since lesson plans have to be turned in at least two weeks before school starts (something that I hear teachers around hear complaining about to no end, so I know it's the way it works here at least), this shouldn't be too difficult to begin with. Then factor in teacher prep days and such and you will most likely down to no more than 10 educational days (for three weeks worth of vacations) to make up. This doesn't factor in any movie days, assembly days or other such items that chew into the educational days.

So, I still maintain it is not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. I am not saying its not extra work, but I am saying that we need to put it in perspective.
I don't know that there is much point in arguing with someone who so obviously has a chip on their shoulder about teachers, and has so fundamentally flawed an idea of what constitutes education and what goes on in a school.

I would humbly suggest that you go to teachers' college and join this gravy train you think educators are riding, but don't be surprised if it's not as easy as it looks, or if there is more going on in education than you can see from your standpoint.

No one I know thinks they know everything there is to know about medicine because they have spent time in an emergency ward, but I do see quite a few who think they know everything about education because they sat in a classroom.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:12 PM   #206
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It all depends on what company you work for. When I used to be in IT and on salary, all the companies I used to work for would give you overtime for anything above the normal 40 hour work week. You usually banked the time. You can use it for time off or get paid out. You said there are a lot of jobs that require you to work free overtime. Well there are lots that pay for overtime above your salary. Teachers never get paid for the 20 or 30 hours they work extra each week. If you have never taught, then you have no idea on what teachers have to deal with.

Sorry for going off topic,
Maybe not, but there's a reason why I jumped tracks in IT, and don't work for that company any longer too. No, I don't know what teachers have to deal with, do they know what I've had to deal with? Nope, is it material to the situation? Nope.

I've never said that teachers don't do a hard job, and don't get a lot of appreciation for it, my whole point is that there are lots of professions that have the same kind of problems, some are better, some are worse, it's not limited to teachers. So when teachers get bent out of shape because they feel that someone is making more work for them, they should remember that this person might not have had a vacation in years, worked 60+ hours per week for years, had to get up at 2:00am for emergencies, and finally be going on their very first vacation in years.

The DIS is famous for people playing devil's advocate and coming up with all sorts of reasons for situations, that's all I'm doing here.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:27 PM   #207
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I respect how hard most teachers work; however, at the end of the day, it is what is best for the child and not the teacher that matters. If you don't believe that, then to be brutally honest, you don't have any business being a teacher. I know that may sound harsh, but its the truth. Lets face it, teachers don't get in this business to make a ton of money, they do it because they want what's best for the children and if your not in it for that reason, you have no business doing it.
Seriously??? Lets talk about the responsibility a parent has to their child and the child's education. Is it "best for the child" to miss valuable days of their education? As an educator, I find your response here shocking and rude.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:38 PM   #208
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Seriously??? Lets talk about the responsibility a parent has to their child and the child's education. Is it "best for the child" to miss valuable days of their education? As an educator, I find your response here shocking and rude.
But your assumption that a parent has nothing of value to add to a child's education isn't? How many complaints are there from teachers here about how the curriculum is now devoted to teaching to the test, and they don't teach kids to think or analyze any more because they have to teach to the test? How would missing a few days or a week of that impact a child's education?

Folks, let's get real. Yes, people take kids out of school for vacations, it happens. Some do it because that's the only time their work will allow them to get off (I grew up a military brat, we took vacations when dad could get the time off, didn't matter when that was), some do it because it's cheaper, and there's nothing wrong with that option either, and some do it because it's less crowded. For many kids, this won't impact their school career at all, and getting the time to spend with a parent who is working so hard is immensely valuable, for other kids, it will impact them, but mom and dad will work hard to help them keep up because the vacation is worth it to them, and for some kids it will impact them and mom and dad don't give a squat. Looking down our noses at anyone for the choices they make in cases 1 and 2 is presumptuous and snooty, case 3, feel free to be judgemental and snooty.

In most cases, you aren't going to change people's minds, and neither side is interested in hearing what the other has to say, we're all just spitting into the wind hoping it doesn't fly back and hit us in the face because we think it's fun.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:43 PM   #209
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People who get paid salary don't usually get paid for time off. It's not just teachers. It is part of the salary agreement. It just so happens that most people get 2 - 3 weeks off while teachers get 8 - 10 weeks + 2 week long breaks. As far as working through summer vacation, I think most salaried employees do some sort of work while on "vacation".
Most people get 2-3 weeks off. That is what teachers get as well (a week in spring and two at Christmas). 8-10 weeks in the summer is not a vacation or a break. It is a mandatory stoppage of work without pay. Not at all the same thing.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:49 PM   #210
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The system is designed to allow travel: during the summer. But as a previous teacher pointed out, folks like to travel during off-peak times because it's generally cheaper and the crowds might be smaller. But that doesn't make traveling at off-peak times more valuable educationally than travel during peak times.
There are many experiences around the world that cannot take place in the summer. Summer break was not instituted for travel, it was instituted because the society at the time was agricultural and kids worked the farm. It grew into vacation season. But there is so much in the world during spring, fall, and winter! No winter olympics trips!
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