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Old 05-24-2013, 07:50 AM   #31
Nancyg56
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Originally Posted by Mkrop View Post
So they have no life....

This is not about the kids having no life. If a parent sets consequences for these behaviors, odds are that the parents will have no life for a while either. I remember that with my own children. I knew that there would be times when the punishment was going to make life miserable for me as well as for them, but I knew that I needed to follow through or they would always wonder if I was threatening or promising. I had seen enough of my family and friends threatening to punish but then backing down. Then ask me why my kids did not whine or ask fr things when we were out, etc. I had set the expectation of behavior and was very clear what the consequence was if they defied me. And I followed through. It did not take long for them to know that I said what I meant and meant what I said.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DawnM View Post
This is what they are learning.

Beg once, get what I want, no.
Beg 100 times to get what I want, no.

I have to beg 1,000 times and THEN I get what I want, so if I just keep doing it, I will get it, so I will keep doing it. She always caves, but it is a song and dance I must go through until I get what I want.

You and your DH have got to sit down and write out clear consequences and lovingly carry them out with your kids. Then you need to sit down with your children and clearly explain the rules and consequences, and then you HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH!

They won't like it, they will possibly try to beg 1,000 more times, but every time you give in, they win. EVERY TIME.

You can respond calmly, "I love you and you are not getting your ipod back." Say it 1,001 times!~

But you won't have to the next time, or the next time......because they will have gotten the message by then.



Exactly. I recently had a very similar conversation with a friend of mine. Her DS6 is a holy terror, mouths off all the time, doesn't listen, etc. I was over there one day and they did their standard song and dance, he says and does whatever he wants, she threatens him about 10 times with going to his room and he ignores her. When she finally tries to make him actually follow through with the punishment he will start throwing himself against walls and screaming bloody murder until she backs off. She did get him in his room one night, at about 9 o'clock on a school night, but let him stay up and play with his toys and watch tv. She asked me if I thought she was being mean by making him stay in his room for the night. Ummmm.....no.

I told her pretty much what everyone here has been saying. The kid is playing her like a fiddle, he knows he doesn't have to listen to her because all he has to do is scream louder and longer than her and she backs down and he wins.

You have to choose consequences for actions and follow through with them every. single. time. If they are doing something they aren't supposed to be doing give them one warning, maybe two, but at the age your kids are if it's something they know they shouldn't be doing already then no warning at all, and mete out whatever punishment you threatened. Do not back down, and do not let them out of it.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:06 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Nancyg56 View Post
This is not about the kids having no life. If a parent sets consequences for these behaviors, odds are that the parents will have no life for a while either. I remember that with my own children. I knew that there would be times when the punishment was going to make life miserable for me as well as for them, but I knew that I needed to follow through or they would always wonder if I was threatening or promising. I had seen enough of my family and friends threatening to punish but then backing down. Then ask me why my kids did not whine or ask fr things when we were out, etc. I had set the expectation of behavior and was very clear what the consequence was if they defied me. And I followed through. It did not take long for them to know that I said what I meant and meant what I said.
This! I remember when my kids didn't listen and I had to follow thru with whatever consequence I issued! I thought - Oh great! Now I'm screwed too! LoL. It ain't alway easy or pleasant to put your money where your mouth is. But if want them to know you mean what you say and have any respect for you that's what you have to do! Why would they listen if they know you don't follow thru??

Last edited by Laura66; 05-24-2013 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:14 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by DawnM View Post
This is what they are learning.

Beg once, get what I want, no.
Beg 100 times to get what I want, no.

I have to beg 1,000 times and THEN I get what I want, so if I just keep doing it, I will get it, so I will keep doing it. She always caves, but it is a song and dance I must go through until I get what I want.

You and your DH have got to sit down and write out clear consequences and lovingly carry them out with your kids. Then you need to sit down with your children and clearly explain the rules and consequences, and then you HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH!

They won't like it, they will possibly try to beg 1,000 more times, but every time you give in, they win. EVERY TIME.

You can respond calmly, "I love you and you are not getting your ipod back." Say it 1,001 times!~

But you won't have to the next time, or the next time......because they will have gotten the message by then.
Great advise!
The only thing I would do differently here is not respond back after 2 or 3 times. They know what you said - they're just trying to wear you down! I just look at them and smile!
(And go outside to scream or call my Girlfriend for support cause I wanna explode lol)
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:19 AM   #35
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Good advice from so many people.
I also support the therapist route. Throwing out 2 resources- both have facebook pages- you can glean immediate tips from.
http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Kid.../dp/0310243157

http://celebratecalm.com/
Their 3 minute YouTube video was eye opening for me: http://youtu.be/z3aPcZoX2GY
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:42 AM   #36
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I don't have advice for you, OP, just hugs. 12 is such a hard age (Mine are 12 & 13). We go through some similar struggles. My kids are absolutely wonderful when it is one on one, but when they are together, things can get rough.

I will say that I think things go better for us when DH and I remain as calm as possible. We had an incident last night that started with disrecpectful behavior and taking away electronics, and ended with the kids taking a two mile run and behaving much better when they got back. DH and I were calm the entire time, and things did not escalate.

Good luck, OP!
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:13 AM   #37
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My son is middle school age, and while our issues are not as bad, I would have to say that, like another poster mentioned... I think some level of these issues can almost be expected at this age.

However, without flaming... Parenting IS the toughest, hardest, most thankless job EVER....

OP: There really do need to be changes.
They are NOT going to start with your kids.
As HARD is it might be. Most everyone here is right.
You need to get a handle on it by getting a handle on your emotional reactions. (Now, I am admitting that there have been times where my son has been able to get to me... I know it happens) But, you have just got to step back, and take some very, very, strong, yet UN-emotional control. Beforehand... Before those kids even get out of bed in the mornings...

Without realizing it... by you and your DH giving the boys that tiny fraction of an inch, They ARE TAKING A MILE!!!!

And, you are continuing to enable this.

Take a step back...
Take three deep breaths...
Set those boundaries.. Proactively... Beforehand...

For example, you clearly know what was going to happen with the ipod.... It should never have been in your son's possession. There should not have been anger, yelling, ear or hair pulling... The Ipod should have been confiscated, seriously, calmly, quietly.... for for a lengthy amount of time... And, this should have been done a long time ago. Boundary set... Problem solved....

Like the other poster said...
Maybe those boys need to be 'without a life' for a while.

Any similar issues with my son have been made worse due to the fact that 'I' am the one and the only real parent and disciplinarian. My DH is more along the lines of you and your DH... Not really parenting... Not providing any discipline... Not establishing boundaries... He is just not naturally the effective, proactive, parent. But, when DS then does something that he didn't like, he would then show anger.

I do not really know why he has been unable to step up, say no, and be a stronger parent. Maybe because he remembers how, at that age, he probably did not like, or did not have, that kind of parenting????

Anyhow, NOT GOOD

This is something that, finally, we have been working on.
I have been trying to discuss this with my husband for a long time now.
I told him, "How is this lack of discipline, boundaries, and control going to be working for you when DS is 16... out there... driver's license in hand???"

You and your husband need to get together...
Really discuss the whole situation.
Be UNemotional about the whole thing...
Discuss better parenting techniques and strategies. Like have been recommended here... and be a united front!!!!!

If you still can't seem to make any headway, then yes, some counseling might be what it takes.

Again, parenting is HARD!!!
Hope things improve!!!

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Old 05-24-2013, 10:16 AM   #38
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I like the consequences some of you have issued but how did you get your kids to do it? If I told my boys they had to run a mile for their misbehavior they would look at me and laugh. They are controlling me and the only bit of control I think I have is to get their attention physically (pulling his hair). My 12 year old is getting physical with me now. He will grab my arms if I try to escort him to his room. I am becoming afraid of him. He is a GREAT kid outside of the home. Maximum honor student, musician, athlete, never gotten a call from school about him etc. At home he is a miserable, disrespectful, hateful child. Makes me sad. I know for sure I am a HUGE part of the problem. I actually think I may suffer from PMDD so I am planning on going to my doctor for a diagnosis and maybe some medication. When I am in my irritable stage everything they do i pick a battle with. I am also going to seek counseling at this point. Please....our house by no means is an abusive home, we just need some redirecting. My boys are very fortunate, but unfortunately do not realize it. If some of you think pulling his hair is abuse how do you feel about spanking? Some kids get spanked with a belt or a wooden spoon. Those things leave marks! I agree physical punishment is not effective in most cases but when its your last resort I have had to use it. I don't want this to get any worse, I am reaching out for advice so I can make things better. Thank you for those who have not judged me and actually feel for me. I am wanting to have a better relationship with my kids and have been open and honest about it. No skeletons in my closet. I am just super overwhelmed and cannot deal.........
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:27 AM   #39
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To clarify - we did not punish DD by making her run. She asked if she went for a run could she have her electronics back. I told her that I thought it was a good idea and I bet her attitude would be better when she returned, and if it was, she could have her electronics back.

I think that because we remained calm, she knew that she was the one who was out of control, and she came up with a way (exercise) to help bring her emotions under control.

But believe me, I understand feeling overwhelmed with it all, because I have been there.

Have you had a chance to spend some one on one time with each of your kids? I find that really helps me put things into perspective, and remember what great kids they are most of the time.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:27 AM   #40
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I like the consequences some of you have issued but how did you get your kids to do it? If I told my boys they had to run a mile for their misbehavior they would look at me and laugh. They are controlling me and the only bit of control I think I have is to get their attention physically (pulling his hair). My 12 year old is getting physical with me now. He will grab my arms if I try to escort him to his room. I am becoming afraid of him. He is a GREAT kid outside of the home. Maximum honor student, musician, athlete, never gotten a call from school about him etc. At home he is a miserable, disrespectful, hateful child. Makes me sad. I know for sure I am a HUGE part of the problem. I actually think I may suffer from PMDD so I am planning on going to my doctor for a diagnosis and maybe some medication. When I am in my irritable stage everything they do i pick a battle with. I am also going to seek counseling at this point. Please....our house by no means is an abusive home, we just need some redirecting. My boys are very fortunate, but unfortunately do not realize it. If some of you think pulling his hair is abuse how do you feel about spanking? Some kids get spanked with a belt or a wooden spoon. Those things leave marks! I agree physical punishment is not effective in most cases but when its your last resort I have had to use it. I don't want this to get any worse, I am reaching out for advice so I can make things better. Thank you for those who have not judged me and actually feel for me. I am wanting to have a better relationship with my kids and have been open and honest about it. No skeletons in my closet. I am just super overwhelmed and cannot deal.........

I absolutely think it's wrong to pull your child's hair or twist his ear and yes, I do think it's abusive (though not as abusive as beating him or something). Spanking, I don't like, but I know it's not considered abuse.

Every time you say more, I feel even stronger that you need family counseling. Really, don't be afraid of it. It's very helpful.

I think the absolute first thing you should do, is tell your boys you're going to do something fun together tomorrow. Try to be completely positive the whole day. See how they respond.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by lukenick1 View Post
I like the consequences some of you have issued but how did you get your kids to do it? If I told my boys they had to run a mile for their misbehavior they would look at me and laugh. They are controlling me and the only bit of control I think I have is to get their attention physically (pulling his hair). My 12 year old is getting physical with me now. He will grab my arms if I try to escort him to his room. I am becoming afraid of him. He is a GREAT kid outside of the home. Maximum honor student, musician, athlete, never gotten a call from school about him etc. At home he is a miserable, disrespectful, hateful child. Makes me sad. I know for sure I am a HUGE part of the problem. I actually think I may suffer from PMDD so I am planning on going to my doctor for a diagnosis and maybe some medication. When I am in my irritable stage everything they do i pick a battle with. I am also going to seek counseling at this point. Please....our house by no means is an abusive home, we just need some redirecting. My boys are very fortunate, but unfortunately do not realize it. If some of you think pulling his hair is abuse how do you feel about spanking? Some kids get spanked with a belt or a wooden spoon. Those things leave marks! I agree physical punishment is not effective in most cases but when its your last resort I have had to use it. I don't want this to get any worse, I am reaching out for advice so I can make things better. Thank you for those who have not judged me and actually feel for me. I am wanting to have a better relationship with my kids and have been open and honest about it. No skeletons in my closet. I am just super overwhelmed and cannot deal.........
I started this reply earlier, but deleted it.

If it were me, I would look into some of the suggested resources from this thread (books, websites, etc.) read them and build some tools for myself.

I would then talk with DH about the new things I had learned. Together, DH and I would plan a family meeting at a time when things in the house were calm. At the meeting, we would state that we didn't like the way things in the house have been going and that we all would like to make some changes. I would then ask the kids what is good about the family and what should be changed. Within reason, I would agree on the plausible things that the kids see need to be changed and then state the things that DH and I would like to see changed. We would then say this is how we are going to do it. No yelling, screaming or hitting. If any of these family rules were broken then the consequence would be xx (based on knowing what you kid's currency is and what the infraction is)

Implement consequences calmly and logically and follow through calmly and logically. No spanking or physical contact. The less we had physical contact, the less the kids would have physical contact.

I found that our oldest DS needed to be involved in a physical activity outside the home. When he wasn't his behavior in the home was much worse. He has realized that when he's not involved in a physical activity, that going for a good run relieves his stress and helps him deal with whatever he needs to deal with. Maybe your son needs to learn some techniques that will diffuse him. Another family I know had a punching bag in their garage.

DS is also a kid that likes to be in charge. When he felt DH and I weren't in charge, he'd take over with ill behavior. Once we got the parents were in charge re established (kind of like the alpha dog idea), he did so much better and is now an amazing leader and young adult.

You do need to act fast and move quickly to get a grip on this, the longer it goes on the harder it will be to manage it.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:43 AM   #42
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I like the consequences some of you have issued but how did you get your kids to do it? If I told my boys they had to run a mile for their misbehavior they would look at me and laugh. They are controlling me and the only bit of control I think I have is to get their attention physically (pulling his hair). My 12 year old is getting physical with me now. He will grab my arms if I try to escort him to his room. I am becoming afraid of him. He is a GREAT kid outside of the home. Maximum honor student, musician, athlete, never gotten a call from school about him etc. At home he is a miserable, disrespectful, hateful child. Makes me sad. I know for sure I am a HUGE part of the problem. I actually think I may suffer from PMDD so I am planning on going to my doctor for a diagnosis and maybe some medication. When I am in my irritable stage everything they do i pick a battle with. I am also going to seek counseling at this point. Please....our house by no means is an abusive home, we just need some redirecting. My boys are very fortunate, but unfortunately do not realize it. If some of you think pulling his hair is abuse how do you feel about spanking? Some kids get spanked with a belt or a wooden spoon. Those things leave marks! I agree physical punishment is not effective in most cases but when its your last resort I have had to use it. I don't want this to get any worse, I am reaching out for advice so I can make things better. Thank you for those who have not judged me and actually feel for me. I am wanting to have a better relationship with my kids and have been open and honest about it. No skeletons in my closet. I am just super overwhelmed and cannot deal.........

The first thing I would say is that you should never threaten a consequence you are not going to be able to enforce. Telling your boy to run a mile is worthless because you cannot make him run. Pulling his hair to get his attention is not working, he is striking back. Spanking a boy who already reacts physically is probably going to escalate the problems. I would not. Clearly, the boys are in charge so how do you change it?

First, I would go speak with a therapist. You need to address how you are channeling your anger so that you can take it out on them. I understand, but you know that you have to change this. Then ask about behavior modification practices. My kids lost privileges. Then they needed to earn them back. For instance, I did not make them do something as punishment, I removed something. You like that TV? Gone. My oldest had a nintendo. DH took the paddles. Left the box and games in his room so he could see them every day, but he had no way to use it. He was given a chart so he could earn his things back.

Everyone is going swimming> Not you. We will stay home together. DD takes my DGD phone away. She also told her that if she slammed a door she would lose the door. And she will take it down. DGD likes her privacy so that stops the sassiness.

I have to say that you better make some sort of plan if your kid lays hands on you again. My first reaction is to call the police, but with the history of physical behavior , I am not sure that is the best idea.

I would sit down as a family and start over. Make a list of behavior that will not be tolerated and tell them when the consequences would be.

If you leave the house, no electronics can come. If one of the boys brings his device, take it away. If you need to toss it, do that. DO this with everything that is a privilege.

Shopping behavior was important to me because I did not want to be embarrassed when we were out. If they asked for anything they would get nothing. If I had extra at the end of the shop, I would offer them something, but they knew that if they asked before I was done, there would be no treat at the end.

If they misbehaved when we were going somewhere they knew I would turn the car around and head home. I did not care how much I had invested in tickets, etc. we went home. I never had to do this because they had already been taught that if I said I would, it would happen.

You cannot change this overnight, but you can change it.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:44 AM   #43
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I like the consequences some of you have issued but how did you get your kids to do it? If I told my boys they had to run a mile for their misbehavior they would look at me and laugh. They are controlling me and the only bit of control I think I have is to get their attention physically (pulling his hair). My 12 year old is getting physical with me now. He will grab my arms if I try to escort him to his room. I am becoming afraid of him. He is a GREAT kid outside of the home. Maximum honor student, musician, athlete, never gotten a call from school about him etc. At home he is a miserable, disrespectful, hateful child. Makes me sad. I know for sure I am a HUGE part of the problem. I actually think I may suffer from PMDD so I am planning on going to my doctor for a diagnosis and maybe some medication. When I am in my irritable stage everything they do i pick a battle with. I am also going to seek counseling at this point. Please....our house by no means is an abusive home, we just need some redirecting. My boys are very fortunate, but unfortunately do not realize it. If some of you think pulling his hair is abuse how do you feel about spanking? Some kids get spanked with a belt or a wooden spoon. Those things leave marks! I agree physical punishment is not effective in most cases but when its your last resort I have had to use it. I don't want this to get any worse, I am reaching out for advice so I can make things better. Thank you for those who have not judged me and actually feel for me. I am wanting to have a better relationship with my kids and have been open and honest about it. No skeletons in my closet. I am just super overwhelmed and cannot deal.........
Reading this, it sounds like things are truly out of control. This goes wayyyyyy beyond whiny kids who don't listen. Nobody should be afraid of their children and especially one who is only 12 and is a great person outside the home. This is clearly an issue with what is taking place inside the home.

I believe your family needs counseling TODAY. Not in a few weeks from now, or maybe a month or so. NOW! You have lost all control and you need help.

You also need to pick up a few of the books/authors who have been recommended on here and start reading NOW. This really does sound serious to me. I hope you find the help you need and quickly.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:46 AM   #44
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I think the absolute first thing you should do, is tell your boys you're going to do something fun together tomorrow. Try to be completely positive the whole day. See how they respond.
I think you are correct. In my reply I focused on the negative behaviors, but I think that if you can get teh kids to respond to positive reinforcement, that is way better! I agree that is a great place to begin!
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:15 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by lukenick1 View Post
I like the consequences some of you have issued but how did you get your kids to do it? If I told my boys they had to run a mile for their misbehavior they would look at me and laugh. They are controlling me and the only bit of control I think I have is to get their attention physically (pulling his hair). My 12 year old is getting physical with me now. He will grab my arms if I try to escort him to his room. I am becoming afraid of him. He is a GREAT kid outside of the home. Maximum honor student, musician, athlete, never gotten a call from school about him etc. At home he is a miserable, disrespectful, hateful child. Makes me sad. I know for sure I am a HUGE part of the problem. I actually think I may suffer from PMDD so I am planning on going to my doctor for a diagnosis and maybe some medication. When I am in my irritable stage everything they do i pick a battle with. I am also going to seek counseling at this point. Please....our house by no means is an abusive home, we just need some redirecting. My boys are very fortunate, but unfortunately do not realize it. If some of you think pulling his hair is abuse how do you feel about spanking? Some kids get spanked with a belt or a wooden spoon. Those things leave marks! I agree physical punishment is not effective in most cases but when its your last resort I have had to use it. I don't want this to get any worse, I am reaching out for advice so I can make things better. Thank you for those who have not judged me and actually feel for me. I am wanting to have a better relationship with my kids and have been open and honest about it. No skeletons in my closet. I am just super overwhelmed and cannot deal.........
My DS knows how to push my buttons. I was going out of my mind, too, when he was 12 or so. When I finally got to and past MY breaking point, things turned around and are MUCH better now. I'm going to agree with everyone - turn your emotions off when they start in on you. This takes practice but it can be done.

So DS was supposed to leave the iPod in the car but he snuck it in? OK, well since you were sneaky and disrespectful, you've now lost your iPod completely for a week. You'll get it back next Thursday at 5:00 pm.

He starts begging... and begging... and begging...and...

Son, I am getting annoyed with your begging. You will not get the iPod back until next Thursday. Ask me one. more. time. and I'll add another week.

and begging

OK. You now get your iPod back TWO weeks from now at 5 pm. Would you like to try for ANOTHER week?


All of the above said calmly and as a matter-of-fact. And then STICK TO IT!! DH must be on board and back you up or this will never work. DS will NOT die if he doesn't have his iPod for a week... or even two... but he WILL remember how "horrible" that week was. He MAY push you once or twice more where you have to follow through but eventually he will learn to not annoyingly beg.


DS is talking trash to his brother... Son, I don't want to hear you talking like that to your brother. Go to your room until you can behave respectfully.

Ds won't go to his room. Do NOT try to "escort" him - he's getting older and stronger and you could wind up getting hurt. Give him an ultimatum. Son, if you don't go to your room NOW you will lose x (this could be an item or an activity) for y time. He still won't go.... Son, I'm not repeating myself.

Again, follow through. Every time.


Staying calm can be really tough sometimes but what helped me get centered the most was thinking how he'd be acting in a few years if I didn't nip the behavior now. Like the PP said about the concert tickets (seriously, WOW on DD's behavior and good for you for teaching her such a costly lesson!), you sometimes wind up punishing yourself too (being out the $$ for said concert tickets or you're stuck at home too since the kid is grounded ) but if you do it right it won't be too long until they learn.

Best of luck to you and your family OP!!
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Me; DS (18); Bear (7); Cosmo (7? He's a stray who found his home with us)

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March 1986 - offsite; March 2002 - offsite; August 2006 - POP; August 2007 - OKW (free upgrade from ASMo!); August 2008 - POR; August 2010 - CBR ; August 2012 - DCL's Fantasy ; July 2013 - POP & 1st solo trip!
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