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Old 05-24-2013, 02:45 PM   #436
Tonka's Skipper
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so if he chooses another profession, he would not be prevented from re-entering the US, correct ?

I could see him being deported from the bahamas as since the ship flies a bahamian flag his work contract is likely under bahamian law, with no job he would likely not have a valid work permit and would have to leave and re-enter under some other mechanism if he wished to stay in the bahamas.

I know that there are important differences based on maritime law and I am not a lawyer or confident to determine whether Disney acted legally or morally but from my foggy recollection, I thought that aiding the relocalization of a suspect to evade arrest, is a felony ( the sheinbein story).


I am not a lawyer either just a maritime guy/ retired Ships Officer, with 35 years in the industry.

I would image his name is also with HLS now as well, because if he returned to the States the law enforcement groups in Florida would surely want to talk to him about the incident on the Dream.


No you hit the point, we don't have enough information, factually or legally to now what the vessel did or when! Whether it was legally criminal or if by international law was legal.

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Old 05-24-2013, 02:46 PM   #437
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I see what your saying and I have been very vocal about how wrong it was for the vessel to sail and not advised the police.

Who else would call?, only the Grandma. Even if she did, they would still call and advise the vessel security before come down.
Your perspective on these situations is greatly appreciated.

These situations are just another reminder that you often have to be your own advocate when bad things happen.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:49 PM   #438
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Let me just say the one thing I know for a fact about DCL Security. Not on the Dream, but on the Wonder anyway.
The HEAD of DCL Security stood in my stateroom and LIED to my face, in order to protect Disney Cruise Line. So did the hotel manager and the CD. I have witnesses who heard it all.

I will NEVER trust them again.

I don't hate Disney. I cruised with them the next year, just got back from Disneyland, and am cruising again next year. But I will never believe a word they say in any situation like this again.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #439
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The ship was not in international waters. If it was, then DCL would have jurisdiction. However, it was docked at Port Canaveral. Port Canaveral police have jurisdiction. Not DCL and not the Bahamas.



See above. The citizenship of the alleged offender and the victim don't matter. The incident took place in Port Canaveral. Police authority rests with the Port Canaveral police, not DCL security. I'm a teacher. Schools have security guards. At the school I was teaching at last year, there were a lot of teachers and staff from various countries. If an 11 year old had accused one of them of the same thing that happened to this girl, would anyone think it appropriate if the school drove the offender to the airport and put them on a plane home? That's essentially what DCL did.


This is not totally true, it could be state, local or the feds or the Bahamian government could have jurisdiction.

Yes the local police can investigate, but in the end any of the above agencies/governments may have jurisdiction and the right to prosecute.

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Old 05-24-2013, 02:52 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by brianvdb View Post
Your perspective on these situations is greatly appreciated.

These situations are just another reminder that you often have to be your own advocate when bad things happen.
Very true my friend!

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Old 05-24-2013, 02:53 PM   #441
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I am not a lawyer either just a maritime guy/ retired Ships Officer, with 35 years in the industry.

I would image his name is also with HLS now as well, because if he returned to the States the law enforcement groups in Florida would surely want to talk to him about the incident on the Dream.


No you hit the point, we don't have enough information, factually or legally to now what the vessel did or when! Whether it was legally criminal or if by international law was legal.

AKK

Why would HLS have his name if his supposed confession occured in the bahamas and to the best of my knowledge he was never even questioned by US authorities ? my concern is that from the US perspective, there is no black mark associated with his name.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:00 PM   #442
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Why would HLS have his name if his supposed confession occured in the bahamas and to the best of my knowledge he was never even questioned by US authorities ? my concern is that from the US perspective, there is no black mark associated with his name.
its not just the US- the greater issue here is DCL's poor response could also put young girls in India (or other countries if he works elsewhere) in danger if this is not properly investigated, prosecuted, etc....

got to tell you I am sick to my stomach over this....
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:12 PM   #443
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Why would HLS have his name if his supposed confession occured in the bahamas and to the best of my knowledge he was never even questioned by US authorities ? my concern is that from the US perspective, there is no black mark associated with his name.
I would believe now at least, he would be considered a *person of interest*(???), wanted for questioning by police in a possible felony investigation. His name would likely be on the list of people to be stopped when entering the country.

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Old 05-24-2013, 03:13 PM   #444
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its not just the US- the greater issue here is DCL's poor response could also put young girls in India (or other countries if he works elsewhere) in danger if this is not properly investigated, prosecuted, etc....

got to tell you I am sick to my stomach over this....


Sadly as the recent new reports have shown, India doesn't seem to interested in rapes etc., against woman!

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Old 05-24-2013, 03:13 PM   #445
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Hypothetical

Firstly, the grandmother only spoke Portuguese. I believe she thought she was doing the best thing she could by going to guest services (I don't know how to call police in other countries, do you?)

Now, since so many people here are coming up with "maybe this is what happened" scenarios, I can't help but think that the perceived magnitude of the crime is affecting some. Now I think this was much worse than it looked. Yes, physically she came away fine, but psychological damage is hard to convey via video.

So I ask you all this: If the grandmother and daughter had reported to GS that she had just been forcibly raped, and the CM who did it took off on foot. So we have an 11 year-old girl reporting she was raped, her attacker is still on the ship somewhere and he could be raping others, on a boat full of children. What do you think GS & Disney security should have done.

In this scenario they are still in PC and there is similar video evidence out there to corroborate.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:15 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Zeppelin View Post
its not just the US- the greater issue here is DCL's poor response could also put young girls in India (or other countries if he works elsewhere) in danger if this is not properly investigated, prosecuted, etc....

got to tell you I am sick to my stomach over this....
not to reduce the severity of the crime, but I dont think it is likely that he would be extradited to the us even if he were convicted in the us or in the bahamas.

Again my lack of understanding is likely based on a profound ignorance of the ways in which maritime law intersects with " land" law. but from the current descriptions one of two things seems to have occured

1) he confessed in the bahamas and then was deported from there
2) he confessed in the bahamas, the bahamas could not ( or chose not to)
prosecute because the alleged crime ocurred in Fla, but disney fired him
anyways and held up their contractual obligation to get him back to india

in the former he might be prevented from re-entering the bahamas but irrespective if it was #1 or #2 I dont see how he could be prevented from re-entering the US, if he so chose. in either event, if he's an indian national and they were not going to hold him in the bahamas, he has every right to return to india.


If however ( again IANAL) Disney facilitated his return to india in order to evade arrest or questioning by US authorities, my limited understanding is that this can be interpreted as obstruction of justice. I dont see how an employment contract ( which would be civil) supercedes criminal charges.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:18 PM   #447
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This is strictly my opinion as of the story we have now (without knowing the exact particulars like when the Captain was notified- before or after sailing.)

I believe that Disney probably didn't break any laws (or they would be in legal hot water even now). I certainly believe that they likely exploited a loophole that would allow them to be as quiet and concealing about the matter as possible. I do not trust big business, any big business, to morally or ethically do the right thing. It does seem like they hushed things and whisked the perpetrator away, and there may be a lot more instances of worse that they have done the same for, just that this one surfaced. I never expected anything differently.

I do not condone the actions of many people, whether it be those I know, work with, etc. If I was going to expect every company to be perfectly ethical or else never earn my business, I could never shop at Walmart, fill my car up with BP, borrow my husband's iPad, or frankly pay taxes for that matter (as we know how ethical and moral politicians can be.) The truth is that we can't avoid disappointments from any big business (or any people). I also do not pick and choose who I punish as I choose to be consistent and I can't avoid all of them.

I have no children thankfully, and in part for this reason, and so my security concerns are not the same as a parent. For me, this is no surprise. Will I continue to cruise and go to Disney? Yes. I still even have to be choosy with Disney content as well. (Not all of it is for me.)

(As a side note: You cannot very easily see right away WHO it is in that particular video. I hope if someone ever accused me (or my husband, father etc anyone I know) of something so awful, that they would do their part first to find the right person and not grab anyone who resembled the guy 'from the back of his head'. (Or at least thats what I saw in the video.) I do believe a person has a right to be properly identified first, and that may not be quicker than the 12 minutes prior to sailing away.)

Last edited by TwinPrincessMermaids; 05-24-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:24 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by rhorsley View Post
Firstly, the grandmother only spoke Portuguese. I believe she thought she was doing the best thing she could by going to guest services (I don't know how to call police in other countries, do you?)

Now, since so many people here are coming up with "maybe this is what happened" scenarios, I can't help but think that the perceived magnitude of the crime is affecting some. Now I think this was much worse than it looked. Yes, physically she came away fine, but psychological damage is hard to convey via video.

So I ask you all this: If the grandmother and daughter had reported to GS that she had just been forcibly raped, and the CM who did it took off on foot. So we have an 11 year-old girl reporting she was raped, her attacker is still on the ship somewhere and he could be raping others, on a boat full of children. What do you think GS & Disney security should have done.

In this scenario they are still in PC and there is similar video evidence out there to corroborate.
First, let me say that I do not think that the family acted incorrectly in reporting this to GS/Security. It is only because of these types of incidents that I would now consider trying to contact the police on my own.

It would be reassuring to hear that DCL:
1) Immediately secured the suspect so that he was not a danger to other guests.
2) Promptly contacted the appropriate law enforcement authority.
3) Investigated the incident without delay.
4) Either off-boarded the suspect into police custody prior to leaving PC, or detained him on-board until he could be questioned by the appropriate law enforcement agency.

There are a couple of these items that are in doubt based on the news report.

Last edited by brianvdb; 05-24-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:30 PM   #449
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not to reduce the severity of the crime, but I dont think it is likely that he would be extradited to the us even if he were convicted in the us or in the bahamas.

Again my lack of understanding is likely based on a profound ignorance of the ways in which maritime law intersects with " land" law. but from the current descriptions one of two things seems to have occured

1) he confessed in the bahamas and then was deported from there
2) he confessed in the bahamas, the bahamas could not ( or chose not to)
prosecute because the alleged crime ocurred in Fla, but disney fired him
anyways and held up their contractual obligation to get him back to india

in the former he might be prevented from re-entering the bahamas but irrespective if it was #1 or #2 I dont see how he could be prevented from re-entering the US, if he so chose. in either event, if he's an indian national and they were not going to hold him in the bahamas, he has every right to return to india.


If however ( again IANAL) Disney facilitated his return to india in order to evade arrest or questioning by US authorities, my limited understanding is that this can be interpreted as obstruction of justice. I dont see how an employment contract ( which would be civil) supercedes criminal charges.
therein lies the debate- why did DCL leave port canaveral without letting local authorities on first to investigate the situation?

my point is- if local authorities were allowed onto the Dream, take the guy into custody, then investigate the crime, there's a much better chance of this not happening in a lot of places...i go back to a point i made several pages ago- if there was an unruly passenger on board who got drunk and assaulted/punched a cast member, would DCL let the Bahamanian authorities take control of the situation? or would they call the Port Canaveral police?

if this incident is true- and the video lends most to believe something unseemly if not horrible happened here, at present time the worst thing that has happened to this guy is he lost his job but got a free trip back to india....
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:47 PM   #450
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Sadly as the recent new reports have shown, India doesn't seem to interested in rapes etc., against woman!

AKK
Unfortunately that is the case in most parts of the world. Makes me feel lucky to live in the US.
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