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Old 05-28-2013, 09:25 AM   #1246
magicbob
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Originally Posted by mom2rtk View Post
But if I used to get 6-7 fastpasses a day, and can now only get 3, doesn't that mean I'll be waiting in MORE lines?
Precisely the point I've been making. Is it worth being able to pre-schedule Space Mountain, Soarin' and TSMM when the trade-off is that I now cannot get a FP for Test Track, Tower of Terror, RnRC, Splash Mountain, BTMRR, and others? If the ability to use FP extensively goes away and we have to wait standby for all rides except those few we have pre-booked, then I'd say the "cost" does not outweigh the benefit for the guest. Whether the "cost" outweighs the benefit for Disney is another matter altogether.


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But then I guess that I would be balanced out by all of the 80% who used to get NO fastpasses and will now spend less time waiting in lines.
True. But as I said previously, in order to redistribute those FP opportunities to the masses, each guest will be extremely limited, making the benefit very small for everyone.

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Then let me rephrase.

I will bow to their greatness if they can get people to do that more than once.

Fool me once......... you know the rest.
Exactly. But remember... they supposedly don't care about return guests. They just need to maintain a high volume of new suckers born each day.

P.S. I'm admittedly engaging in some hyperbole. I don't really envision Disney execs huddled in a smoke-filled room figuring out how they can fool the public. But I DO think there are potentially some very negative consequences to how this new system is implemented.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:49 AM   #1247
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True. But as I said previously, in order to redistribute those FP opportunities to the masses, each guest will be extremely limited, making the benefit very small for everyone.

Exactly. But remember... they supposedly don't care about return guests. They just need to maintain a high volume of new suckers born each day.
I've been reading this thread, very interesting...Anyway, had to chime in...I totally agree with this post. The idea is to redistribute the FPs more evenly. Across the entire day and across more guests. I also agree that they don't care so much about the return guests who they think will probably come back regardless, they need to keep a steady flow of new guests coming. When people go home complaining about lines, that's not good for business.

As a disclaimer, I'm excited for the new FP system. It will fit the way we tour nicely, if it is what I think it is anyway.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:03 AM   #1248
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Precisely the point I've been making. Is it worth being able to pre-schedule Space Mountain, Soarin' and TSMM when the trade-off is that I now cannot get a FP for Test Track, Tower of Terror, RnRC, Splash Mountain, BTMRR, and others? If the ability to use FP extensively goes away and we have to wait standby for all rides except those few we have pre-booked, then I'd say the "cost" does not outweigh the benefit for the guest. Whether the "cost" outweighs the benefit for Disney is another matter altogether.

Agreed. And as much as I love Disney, I have to say I would probably stop going. Of course, my youngest is 12 and it's going to be harder and harder to take her out of school for trips, so maybe our time was coming anyway. But I'm not big on crowds and long waits would likely deter me even if my youngest was preschool aged.

I know Disney supposedly has tons of replacements ready to swoop in and take my place. But it's not like there's a waiting list to get into Disney. What's stopping all those replacements from coming now? Disney pulls out the stops already to maximize attendance. Bonuses are based on them increasing bodies through the gates. So are those folks not coming now because Disney has a reputation of long lines, and once that changes they will flock there? What happens when the very vocal minority (the 10%???) has to START waiting in more lines and voices their displeasure on social media?


True. But as I said previously, in order to redistribute those FP opportunities to the masses, each guest will be extremely limited, making the benefit very small for everyone.



And is it worth $1B+ to add a small benefit for everyone? (except me of course. )

I honestly don't know if evening out the satisfaction level is enough to make this work. It might be. But it might not.

Do people moderately happy with an experience sing its praises on social media? Or more importantly, do they book return trips? Once again, I don't know.

I understand Disney identified something through market research that they wanted to address.... the belief among the 80% that doing Disney meant standing in long lines. Unfortunately they were willing to do whatever it took....... except the one thing that made the most sense and had the most likelihood or working when the swore off of an attraction fight with US.



Exactly. But remember... they supposedly don't care about return guests. They just need to maintain a high volume of new suckers born each day.

P.S. I'm admittedly engaging in some hyperbole. I don't really envision Disney execs huddled in a smoke-filled room figuring out how they can fool the public. But I DO think there are potentially some very negative consequences to how this new system is implemented.

You know, a company can only rely on past reputation for so long. Is Disney in danger of running out of reputation? No, not even close. But assuming there will always be a replacement newbie is something they do at their own peril. In today's fast paced media environment, I think goodwill and past reputation is spent at a far quicker rate than ever before. Even Disney has to make sound business decisions.



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Old 05-28-2013, 10:15 AM   #1249
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Originally Posted by magicbob View Post
Precisely the point I've been making. Is it worth being able to pre-schedule Space Mountain, Soarin' and TSMM when the trade-off is that I now cannot get a FP for Test Track, Tower of Terror, RnRC, Splash Mountain, BTMRR, and others? If the ability to use FP extensively goes away and we have to wait standby for all rides except those few we have pre-booked, then I'd say the "cost" does not outweigh the benefit for the guest. Whether the "cost" outweighs the benefit for Disney is another matter altogether.




True. But as I said previously, in order to redistribute those FP opportunities to the masses, each guest will be extremely limited, making the benefit very small for everyone.



Exactly. But remember... they supposedly don't care about return guests. They just need to maintain a high volume of new suckers born each day.

P.S. I'm admittedly engaging in some hyperbole. I don't really envision Disney execs huddled in a smoke-filled room figuring out how they can fool the public. But I DO think there are potentially some very negative consequences to how this new system is implemented.
This is the great fear I have. That this isn't just a new fangled policy but that it signals a general shift in policy from more rides/attractions to keep on top, to "how can we keep these suckers on Disney property and get 'em spending?" I mean that's always been there, but it hasn't been quite such an overriding concern that it has the potential to affect some (possibly a LOT of) guests experiences quite so adversely.

I mean when was the last time anything major that was completely new was added? I don't mean changes to existing rides, I mean an entirely new ride? Does anyone know when that was?

You could say the new FL but I don't know... just seemed like more of a rethinking what was there than true innovation to me. (Not a verdict on the quality of that rethink, I just don't think it was a completely new thing, or a step into the unknown or anything.)

I'm thinking of things like Soarin'. Was anything really innovative and new added after that? I kept an eye on things after my last visit in 09 and only read about the revamped FL. Was there anything I missed?

Having said that... how much did Soarin' and things like it actually cost? Because for a 1BN investment, Disney could have just done a new area or attraction and they might even have saved a couple million, surely? I mean the new ride in antarctica at Seaworld is rumoured to have cost 40 to 50 million, I can't imagine the whole thing was more than 250-500 million.

Not to mention, Seaworlds stock rose 40% when that was announced. Can anyone see this new system doing the same for Disney? (I know, apples and oranges. But it is revealing how well people, both public and investors, react to new attractions. Because, a themepark is primarily about attractions I suspect...)
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:50 AM   #1250
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:05 AM   #1251
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1)They have the arrogance maybe, to presume they wont actually lose you. That you will still come, because its Disney. Oh, you say, I wont be. But, I have been reading these boards for 10 years, and whenever change comes, these same statements have been made.
But "change" never before had the potential to affect the CORE of the Disney trip so greatly. Dining plan, discounts, monorail access, changes in character schedules, park hours, EMH access.......all sorts of things have changed through the years. But ultimately the CORE piece of why people go to Disney is to experience the attractions. In my opinion, that puts this one in an entirely different league.

And everyone has their jumping off point. I think it would be foolhardy to abandon Disney before all the facts are in. We are discussing potential fallout right now because.....well, what else are we going to do while waiting for them to drop the rest of the details on us? But once the details are released, you might see folks start to make decisions to vacation elsewhere.

Disney overlooks that one little fact at their own peril.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:10 AM   #1252
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:12 AM   #1253
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I don't think it is fair to say they aren't focused on repeat business just a constant stream of first timers.

If they convert this new stream of first timers into repeat visitors, those repeat visitors will know and be comfortable with the system they learned on when they were new and be better at it, and still happy.

I've been going to WDW for almost 40 years, been dozens of times. I still don't use more than 3-4 fp in a day, the precision needed to get to 6 or 7 would not be enjoyable to me.

I like the look of the new system and look forward to trying it out.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:13 AM   #1254
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Disney needs to upgrade their merchandise if they want me to shop a lot more. Having more time to look at generic items doesn't keep those same items from being...generic.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:15 AM   #1255
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But "change" never before had the potential to affect the CORE of the Disney trip so greatly. Dining plan, discounts, monorail access, changes in character schedules, park hours, EMH access.......all sorts of things have changed through the years. But ultimately the CORE piece of why people go to Disney is to experience the attractions. In my opinion, that puts this one in an entirely different league.

And everyone has their jumping off point. I think it would be foolhardy abandon Disney before all the facts are in. We are discussing potential fallout right now because.....well, what else are we going to do while waiting for them to drop the rest of the details on us? But once the details are released, you might see folks start to make decisions to vacation elsewhere.

Disney overlooks that one little fact at their own peril.
This is the main difference.

I would rather have seen them give discounts on food and merch to onsite guests, charge for Disney transport for offsite guests, charge offsite guests more for tickets, or something similar before they touch how I do attractions. That is how key attractions are to me.

Hence I'm still hoping for change, or preferably for them to leave the way people enjoy attractions at Disney. Lines too long? BUILD MORE. This is completely the wrong way to attempt to remedy this imo and it stinks of self interest. Normally companies can cloak this, and the newb may well not notice, but I do. And I don't like it one bit.

Alas, I might well just be in such a small number of people as to make my protestations worthless. In which case the only response would be to stop going back. When I feel a business has not only stopped catering for me but started acting mostly for it's own ends at my expense of a core aspect of that business, that is how I would respond.

Unfortunately Disney is a behemoth with the resources to at least attempt this new system and see where the chips fall. Any other theme park couldn't afford to throw so much resources at a system with so much risk associated, imo.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:19 AM   #1256
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This is the main difference.

I would rather have seen them give discounts on food and merch to onsite guests, charge for Disney transport for offsite guests, charge offsite guests more for tickets, or something similar before they touch how I do attractions. That is how key attractions are to me.

Hence I'm still hoping for change, or preferably for them to leave the way people enjoy attractions at Disney. Lines too long? BUILD MORE. This is completely the wrong way to attempt to rememedy this imo and it stinks of self interest. Normally companies can cloak this, and the newb may well not notice, but I do. And I don't like it one bit.

Alas, I might well just be in such a small number of people as to make my protestations worthless. In which case the only response would be to stop going back. When I feel a business has not only stopped catering for me but started acting mostly for it's own ends at my expense of a core aspect of that business, that is how I would respond.

Unfortunately Disney is a behemoth with the resources to at least attempt this new system and see where the chips fall. Any other theme park couldn't afford to risk this much on a system with so much risk associated, imo.
Disney gets too much business from offsite guests (I'm often one!) to start charging them a premium. I don't think that they will ever turn offsite into another class of visitor.

Disney is counting on loyalty from their repeat visitors regardless of the system they use or at least that's how it appears to me. That loyalty is there but how many visitors does that include and how far will that go?
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:24 AM   #1257
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Lines too long? BUILD MORE.
Can someone explain to me how this line of thinking works? I see it quite a bit and I can't quite wrap my head around it.

Are we saying when Mine Train opens for instance fewer people will want to ride space mountain so some of the people that would have waited in line at Space will ride at Mine Train instead? Does that assume a constant crowd level? If the new attraction attracts more people doesn't that increase all lines?

Are we saying that it only applies with the park at maximum capacity and that the construction to build the new attraction or area did not impact the capacity figure?

If it is just redistributing people to more attractions in the parks to lower lines how does that help Disney make more money?
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:25 AM   #1258
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I will forward the premise, that really I have tried to say gently, that Disney is not targeting frequent or savvy visitors with this new plan. That AP holders, and Fl Residents are not their target. That the only population they are a little concerned about is the DVC population, and the reason I say this, is because of the fall promotion. And if they are not targeting frequent or savvy vistors, or the ap holder, then logic dictates to me that they are not a large enough entity at any point in time, to make them concerned if this group gets entirely pissed off. That to me in turn means, that their eye is directly focused on a larger group. Who is that group? The infrequent and unsavvy visitor. The casual visitor. Is it 80% of the population? Is it 70 %, or 60%
Everything you said makes complete sence. But, what about DL? There, locaks and repeat business is, I've heard, a large majority. Yet, they think FP+ will work there, too. So, who will FP+ be targeted to there? The casual and infrequent visitor is just too small of a percentage there.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:29 AM   #1259
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Everything you said makes complete sence. But, what about DL? There, locaks and repeat business is, I've heard, a large majority. Yet, they think FP+ will work there, too. So, who will FP+ be targeted to there? The casual and infrequent visitor is just too small of a percentage there.
But the need for the data is so much larger there as a result. In WDW they at least have the tens of thousands of resort rooms to give them an indication of how many people are coming. In DL they need to worry about thousands of spontaneous guests showing up out of the blue when the weather is nice, if they made them plan a bit more it would give them much more reliable data.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:38 AM   #1260
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Can someone explain to me how this line of thinking works? I see it quite a bit and I can't quite wrap my head around it.

Are we saying when Mine Train opens for instance fewer people will want to ride space mountain so some of the people that would have waited in line at Space will ride at Mine Train instead? Does that assume a constant crowd level? If the new attraction attracts more people doesn't that increase all lines?

Are we saying that it only applies with the park at maximum capacity and that the construction to build the new attraction or area did not impact the capacity figure?

If it is just redistributing people to more attractions in the parks to lower lines how does that help Disney make more money?
There are several ways to reduce line length that Disney could have utilised imo.

1) Build more rides. Yes in the short term this might result in an increase in guests interested purely in that attraction, like TSMM or HP at Universal. However, all those guests in that line free up space in others. People go home saying "wow was that *insert ride* popular, but we got on a lot of others." People do it here on the Dis, for example.

Moreover, this new ride would split demand with the previous ride. A popular new ride at DHS would split guests a little more. One at Epcot might split guests 3 ways instead of 2. (I consider test track and soarin' to be the more popular rides, otherwise its more a 4 instead of 3 way split.

Not only this, but over time the demand for that attraction will begin to settle and it will function much like other rides do now, as a "spillway" for guests, and a backup in case the next headliner rides do get too busy to use.

2) Make rides high capacity. This will minimise impact of any short term increase in lines at this ride, and get guests out into the giftshops better. Win win.

3) Reduce downtime for rides with more maintenance and refurbs. Just 10% of that 1BN investment spent on the key rides that often go down would have help this somewhat, and if they had spent half a billion on this, the effect I think would be noticeable.

4) Create new shopping areas etc, which would also net more money, at least in theory. At Seaworld they introduced the new waterfront, and it definitely helped to take demand off other areas of the park imo. Universal has Citywalk. Yes Disney has DTD, but its a little out of the way.

5) Create entirely new lands. Not only would these include rides, shops, and places to eat that would soak up guests in the long run and provide extra revenue (again, a short term increase in guests would be inevitable, but that didn't and doesn't stop people from turning up at Universal for Harry Potter and throwing money at them) but you can include more paths, more places to rest and wander. A new land at Epcot for example could take a number of guests out of the other lands, easing pressure.

They went for this new system. It might have more impact at reducing lines, but given that they are A) expanding Fastpass locations, B) increasing use of said fastpass to lots more people, and C) tests say it doesn't help some attractions, I doubt it.
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