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Old 04-11-2013, 06:41 AM   #31
beer dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
1. the Mine train was a late addition to the plan. Ground was broken on the project and work started on BOG and LM buildings under the original expansion plans. It was a couple months later once Staggs was moved into his position over the parks that the original plans for the location now occupied by the mine train were changed to put the mine train there and to 86 the original plans that called for a couple more stand alone princess meet and greet locations. With the late change of plans I'm willing to give them a bit more leeway because of the potential additional engineering work required from dusting off this idea and working it, getting the components into place, and the fact that if it was part of the orginal plan, the original construction timetable could've been put together to make better use of time and resources as it's obvious the coaster requires a more complicated and involved engineering and construction process than a couple simple meet and greet show buildings.


So what we seem to have here is an example of Disney changing the plans of a construction project mid stream to INCREASE the spending and the quality of the project. From all the posts on this site, I was lead to believe they would never do such a thing.

Truth is stranger than fiction.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:58 AM   #32
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As mentioned here many times, the last 10-12 years, WDW has been governed by the bean counters, hold back the imaginers form doing the excellent works they always did. The bean counters reduced maintained and other special thing in the WDW parks etc.

Now, look back over the last 2-3 years, there are changes being made in management ..........seems that Disney has woken up !. There is a big increase in maintance and major refurbishment! We see in the last 1 or 2 years. lots of closed attractions for major refurbishment, maintaince expending (EI monorail , with much fewer break downs in the last year)

Look at the Massive plans for DTD, after the small, poor Hyperion studios plans put out 23 years ago and quickly withdrawn.

Look at Carsland in DR........it is excellently done and reviewed.......piles of people and increased attendance............


Just my observations......and readings, etc. Hope I am right.


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Old 04-11-2013, 10:04 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
As mentioned here many times, the last 10-12 years, WDW has been governed by the bean counters, hold back the imaginers form doing the excellent works they always did. The bean counters reduced maintained and other special thing in the WDW parks etc.

Now, look back over the last 2-3 years, there are changes being made in management ..........seems that Disney has woken up !. There is a big increase in maintance and major refurbishment! We see in the last 1 or 2 years. lots of closed attractions for major refurbishment, maintaince expending (EI monorail , with much fewer break downs in the last year)

Look at the Massive plans for DTD, after the small, poor Hyperion studios plans put out 23 years ago and quickly withdrawn.

Look at Carsland in DR........it is excellently done and reviewed.......piles of people and increased attendance............


Just my observations......and readings, etc. Hope I am right.


AKK

i ll feel better about it when dirt is actually being moved in both DHS and DAK but i agree hopefully the tide is turning
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by twebber55 View Post

i ll feel better about it when dirt is actually being moved in both DHS and DAK but i agree hopefully the tide is turning
I completely agree
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by rteetz

i completely agree
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:03 PM   #36
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Another reason for the mine train taking so long is that it's an incredibly complex construction. Its easy to either build a coaster all indoors or all outdoors, but its really hard to do both, and then to add show scenes to it makes it even more complicated.

The amount of excavating that was required for it was ridiculous, almost all of the coaster is below the surface of the magic kingdom, with some of the track going below the bottom of the utilidors.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:37 PM   #37
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Lockedoutlogic, I totally agree. I just understand how people can be disappointed by not getting to see whatever upcoming thing they are prepping because they know they won't get to go back or awhile. I don't think it's fair to be upset that Disney is not able to open the new attractions just because they are not going to be able to go back soon.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
I'm not debating your opinion by any means....but i do try to make it a point on the highlighted sentence that no disney park or product has EVER been advertised, promised, or marketed as being "value" or "available to everyone".

this is a world of haves and have nots...and disney travelers are in 99.9% more of the haves.

Disney is not providing a public service...they are making profit for both themselves and countless millions of stockholders each day who check to see if the stock went up each night on their iPad...while they sit and watch tv.
~You keep saying this, but how can I agree, when in turn you pat Mr. Pirate on the back when he refers to Disney as pandering to the people of Wal-Mart. Which one is it? It can't be both or can it? I have trouble defining who Disney appeals to -- working class, middle class -- the waters are murky, could be all of the above. You say Disney doesn't market value, but we have "value" resorts and free dining with refillable mugs. I'm not trying to argue, I just want to form my own opinion -- but I just don't have enough, I really don't know. But, when you agree with Mr. Pirate, you contradict yourself. Mr. Pirate's message is crystal clear, he feels Disney has become Walmart, your message is not clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka's Skipper View Post
As mentioned here many times, the last 10-12 years, WDW has been governed by the bean counters, hold back the imaginers form doing the excellent works they always did. The bean counters reduced maintained and other special thing in the WDW parks etc.

Now, look back over the last 2-3 years, there are changes being made in management ..........seems that Disney has woken up !. There is a big increase in maintance and major refurbishment! We see in the last 1 or 2 years. lots of closed attractions for major refurbishment, maintaince expending (EI monorail , with much fewer break downs in the last year)

Look at the Massive plans for DTD, after the small, poor Hyperion studios plans put out 23 years ago and quickly withdrawn.

Look at Carsland in DR........it is excellently done and reviewed.......piles of people and increased attendance............


Just my observations......and readings, etc. Hope I am right.



AKK
~I'm with you Tonka, I really hope, so. My issue is that Disney's efforts appear to be reactive instead of proactive. There's a difference between a company that desires to redefine how we experience theme parks with new innovative experiences versus a company that's become complacent and does only what they have to just to save face. You made a comment about Carsland, but made no mention of the New Fantasyland. There was a time, when we didn't have to "hope" about being right -- it was expected. With that said, I really hope you're right.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by beer dave View Post
So what we seem to have here is an example of Disney changing the plans of a construction project mid stream to INCREASE the spending and the quality of the project. From all the posts on this site, I was lead to believe they would never do such a thing.

Truth is stranger than fiction.
My understanding is that they did not increase the budget on the project, they cut Pixie Hollow to pay for the mine ride.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:34 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~You keep saying this, but how can I agree, when in turn you pat Mr. Pirate on the back when he refers to Disney as pandering to the people of Wal-Mart. Which one is it? It can't be both or can it? I have trouble defining who Disney appeals to -- working class, middle class -- the waters are murky, could be all of the above. You say Disney doesn't market value, but we have "value" resorts and free dining with refillable mugs. I'm not trying to argue, I just want to form my own opinion -- but I just don't have enough, I really don't know. But, when you agree with Mr. Pirate, you contradict yourself. Mr. Pirate's message is crystal clear, he feels Disney has become Walmart, your message is not clear.
The problem is that the "Value" resorts, aren't really a value ($150/night for a bunch of oversized props outside a glorified motel 6?)... and "Free Dining" isn't a great deal either for most people..... and it's also being phased out now that the big travel downturns are starting to reverse. Even the refillable mugs are starting to get chipp'd to make them not so unlimted refill-y anymore. (And honestly, Soda and soda water are cheap.)

Disney can pander to the masses... while still pricing themselves above the masses. If you look at their advertising campaigns, You can see how they are trying to play themselves off as the "wonderful, magical, once in a lifetime experience". They are counting on the walmart masses to save up for a year or 2 and blowing all their money on a big disney trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~I'm with you Tonka, I really hope, so. My issue is that Disney's efforts appear to be reactive instead of proactive. There's a difference between a company that desires to redefine how we experience theme parks with new innovative experiences versus a company that's become complacent and does only what they have to just to save face. You made a comment about Carsland, but made no mention of the New Fantasyland. There was a time, when we didn't have to "hope" about being right -- it was expected. With that said, I really hope you're right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoris View Post
My understanding is that they did not increase the budget on the project, they cut Pixie Hollow to pay for the mine ride.
If they increased the budget... it wasn't by much. they cut 3 glorfied meet and greet attractions/areas for 1 coaster style attraction. However, I think most of the prep work was already done and sitting on a shelf. It also benefited from a changing in guard.... and a big public outcry about how unexciting the original plans were.

First off... You have a changing of the guard. The new guy comes in early in a major capital project and wants to put his stamp on it. It happens all the time when a new guy comes in and changes things that his predecessor started in order to leave a legacy of his own.

Second... You have some rather loud public complaints about the original plan because Disney was spending all this money and hyping it as a HUGE addition to the parks.... and ultimately all they were giving us was a new restaurant, a new omnimover ride, and a bunch of Meet and Greets. All of it, Princess centric. You had 2 camps complaining, 1 that were complaining that it was all very girl-y and there wasn't much boys would enjoy... and you had the camp complaining about how Disney was spending all this money, but a majority of what we were getting was big glorified versions taking up a ton of real estate for what we already had pre-updates in the Toontown tents..... IOW's.... Disney wasn't really giving us anything new with all that construction and spending but was just shuffling around the existing offerings.


So.... We ended up with a change (and potential budget increase) because someone in power wanted to show he did something and contributed to the project.... and someone realized that Disney was potentially heading to a huge PR mess from another large project not meeting expectations and potentially generating complaints. (ie... Imaginations Refurb 1, AK.... DCA Version 1.... etc etc).
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:58 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoris View Post
My understanding is that they did not increase the budget on the project, they cut Pixie Hollow to pay for the mine ride.
correct...and to go a step further...

jay rasulo said that they would be embarking on a "683 million dollar" expansion of fantasyland (because guest feedback demanded it)...

but the final budget has been reportedly consistently and widely as in the 450 million dollar range...with the dwarfin' coaster.

So either
A. the budgets were slashed (which is the only scenario here...not like disney has EVER built anything they set out to for 30% less than they estimated)
B. they intentionally threw out a big number to generate "shock and awe" for either PR purposes or to show Universal who the big dog was in the days leading up to the opening of Harry Potter.

Either move is BUDGET and shows a little bit of napoleon complex from the old mouse house.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
The problem is that the "Value" resorts, aren't really a value ($150/night for a bunch of oversized props outside a glorified motel 6?)... and "Free Dining" isn't a great deal either for most people..... and it's also being phased out now that the big travel downturns are starting to reverse. Even the refillable mugs are starting to get chipp'd to make them not so unlimted refill-y anymore. (And honestly, Soda and soda water are cheap.)
First...the mug move is a load of crap. but we know why...the same "style" mugs are purchased when they are introduced and used for the next 6 years...

Although that's not disney's fault and it is bold faced theft based on the mug policy...i'm saying disney MIGHT be able to curb that if they were to deviate just slightly on their China Express mass producing policies and return to year/resort specifics. would cut down abuse by probably 90%

soda syrup and carbonated water are extremely cheap (why nobody should drink it)...but ink being fed to computer controlled chinese plastic presses also is cheap.

devil's advocate.

Second...don't get caught on the resort pricing terminology...its an economic caste system and disney does the definitions:

Value - value in their terms...ie you get the disney look at the disney food (aka aramark) and the disney bus at what they perceive as a bargain basement price. Value does not refer to the consumer's budget.

Moderate - pretty straight forward - the middle of their defined price system. The moderates are pound for pound the biggest ripoffs of any hotels in wdw, orlando, maybe on Earth. Their rates are inline with Westin, hyatt, and marriots in most markets for large parts of the year...sometime even at those comparisons in orlando.

Deluxe - the real stinker...when they charge you 3x as much for what was going to be "standard" according to what the disney brothers approved in the 1960's. that's the kicker...$200 a night (minimum) more to ride the monorail, a boat, or see the magic kingdom or a sliver of the back of EPCOT.
Contemporary's room rate was $29.00 dollars on 10/1/1971.
I'm not sure there's a point to further discussion.


But i'm not blaming disney for any of this...this is something that boils down to simple econ...supply and demand.

The lemmings pay it (like me) and so that is the rate. For me...its worth it to stay near the parks and use the restaurants, pools, and bars...
but i'm still getting ripped off.

not their fault...i bought the timeshare and present the visa anytime they ask me...
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by DanBoris View Post
My understanding is that they did not increase the budget on the project, they cut Pixie Hollow to pay for the mine ride.
So a roller coaster and a mountain cost the same as a few buildings? I highly doubt it.

Maybe the project actually came in under budget due to good management and they realized they could spend some of the savings on the additional ride.

Does the reduction in cost as compared to projected cost have to have to be because of budget cuts? No.
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Maybe the project actually came in under budget due to good management and they realized they could spend some of the savings on the additional ride.

Does the reduction in cost as compared to projected cost have to have to be because of budget cuts? No.
It's true that none of us knows why the amount spent appears to be less than what was originally announced. If Disney was able to finish the project under budget, I don't automatically see that as a bad thing. The truth is, it could be good, bad or a mixed bag.

Naturally, saving millions of dollars is good for shareholders.

That doesn't mean it's bad for park attendees. Perhaps the money saved can then be used for another project...there have been lots of rumors about changes at DHS.

I'm not making assumptions because none of us knows for sure what is planned for Parks & Resorts other than what has been officially announced, and I know I don't have access to budgets and capex.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:16 PM   #45
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~OMG! I am absent for one day & I just noticed a locked thread -- in rumors?!? Unbelievable...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
The problem is that the "Value" resorts, aren't really a value ($150/night for a bunch of oversized props outside a glorified motel 6?)... and "Free Dining" isn't a great deal either for most people..... and it's also being phased out now that the big travel downturns are starting to reverse. Even the refillable mugs are starting to get chipp'd to make them not so unlimted refill-y anymore. (And honestly, Soda and soda water are cheap.)

Disney can pander to the masses... while still pricing themselves above the masses. If you look at their advertising campaigns, You can see how they are trying to play themselves off as the "wonderful, magical, once in a lifetime experience". They are counting on the walmart masses to save up for a year or 2 and blowing all their money on a big disney trip.
~I don't know, I used to believe this until I read in another thread, from several different posters who have come to depend on free dining. They pretty much stated, they would not be able to justify a Disney vacation without free dining, and it saves them at least a thousand dollars or more. Also, you neglect to mention Magical Express, EMH, and the money saved on not renting a car or paying for parking. I think Disney is trying to phase out Free dining, but I don't think it will work -- it seems like the majority of guests who were initially attracted to free dining, would not be able afford Disney without it. That's not to say I don't agree with you, because I do. I don't think the "values" are a real value, but it's obvious that many people feel otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
If they increased the budget... it wasn't by much. they cut 3 glorfied meet and greet attractions/areas for 1 coaster style attraction. However, I think most of the prep work was already done and sitting on a shelf. It also benefited from a changing in guard.... and a big public outcry about how unexciting the original plans were.

First off... You have a changing of the guard. The new guy comes in early in a major capital project and wants to put his stamp on it. It happens all the time when a new guy comes in and changes things that his predecessor started in order to leave a legacy of his own.

Second... You have some rather loud public complaints about the original plan because Disney was spending all this money and hyping it as a HUGE addition to the parks.... and ultimately all they were giving us was a new restaurant, a new omnimover ride, and a bunch of Meet and Greets. All of it, Princess centric. You had 2 camps complaining, 1 that were complaining that it was all very girl-y and there wasn't much boys would enjoy... and you had the camp complaining about how Disney was spending all this money, but a majority of what we were getting was big glorified versions taking up a ton of real estate for what we already had pre-updates in the Toontown tents..... IOW's.... Disney wasn't really giving us anything new with all that construction and spending but was just shuffling around the existing offerings.


So.... We ended up with a change (and potential budget increase) because someone in power wanted to show he did something and contributed to the project.... and someone realized that Disney was potentially heading to a huge PR mess from another large project not meeting expectations and potentially generating complaints. (ie... Imaginations Refurb 1, AK.... DCA Version 1.... etc etc).
~Excellent post, DCTooTall! I totally agree with this!
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