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Old 04-01-2013, 02:01 PM   #1
eagle29
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Point Chart for Villas at Grand Californian

It was my understanding that DVC could change the dates for the different seasons (Adventure, Choice, Magic, Premier) from year to year but the total # of points for those seasons couldn't change. In other words, comparing 2013 to 2014, the entire point structure has remained the same, yet there are fewer days in Choice season (and more in Magic season) in 2014 vs 2013

Choice 2013: 150 days
Choice 2014: 135 days

Magic 2013: 93 days
Magic 2014: 108 days

Can they legally do this?
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:35 PM   #2
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Total points for the year can't change, not the seasons.

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Old 04-01-2013, 02:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disneynutz View Post
Total points for the year can't change, not the seasons.

Bill
This is always how we have understood it too.

Also, the OP is comparing apples and oranges by only looking at number of days and not including the points per night.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle29 View Post
It was my understanding that DVC could change the dates for the different seasons (Adventure, Choice, Magic, Premier) from year to year but the total # of points for those seasons couldn't change. In other words, comparing 2013 to 2014, the entire point structure has remained the same, yet there are fewer days in Choice season (and more in Magic season) in 2014 vs 2013

Choice 2013: 150 days
Choice 2014: 135 days

Magic 2013: 93 days
Magic 2014: 108 days

Can they legally do this?
As noted, the total points for the resort for the year can't change but they can rearrange them based on day of week or season if they see fit. It's actually more comlicated than that but if you think of it this way, you'll have a better understanding than most. Do realize that there is no real protections for the lockoff units or for your preferred time. A given year will always vary based on weekends, weekdays and the calendar. DVC uses a base year which I'm pretty sure was either 1991 or 1992 as the legal basis. I get 95 instead of 93 but the difference is till fairly large.

That being said, it doesn't explain the issue completely. It looks like they've moved the last week of June from Magic to Choice. I don't think the base year variations explain that large a difference. Since there are no view categories, reassignments there also don't explain it. I wonder if they made a mistake and will correct it fairly soon. It might be worth asking this question of MS.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:43 PM   #5
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There is no issue. Nothing has really changed. The issue you are having is called "Easter." The 15 days surrounding Easter are always premiere season at VGC. In 2013 those days were March 22- April 6 which are usually in Magic Season and thus Magic Season lost 15 days. In 2014, the Easter weeks are days usually in Choice season, April 11-26, and thus choice season will lose 15 days in 2014.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:53 PM   #6
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One thing I didn't know until they started reallocating 3 or 4 years ago that they can move points around between the different room sizes. I thought a studio had to add up to the same total for the entire year. Not true, they can make studios go up and 1 bedrooms go down or vice versa.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DebbieB View Post
One thing I didn't know until they started reallocating 3 or 4 years ago that they can move points around between the different room sizes. I thought a studio had to add up to the same total for the entire year. Not true, they can make studios go up and 1 bedrooms go down or vice versa.
Actually the POS offers no protection to the lockoff portions other than the limit of 20% change per year.
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Old 04-02-2013, 01:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle29 View Post
It was my understanding that DVC could change the dates for the different seasons (Adventure, Choice, Magic, Premier) from year to year but the total # of points for those seasons couldn't change. In other words, comparing 2013 to 2014, the entire point structure has remained the same, yet there are fewer days in Choice season (and more in Magic season) in 2014 vs 2013

Choice 2013: 150 days
Choice 2014: 135 days

Magic 2013: 93 days
Magic 2014: 108 days

Can they legally do this?
In which resort's chart are you seeing this? I just checked the chart for BWV and I don't see any shifting of days between Choice and Magic seasons. ETA: Nevermind, I see you mention the resort in the title of the thread. Off to look at the charts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DebbieB View Post
One thing I didn't know until they started reallocating 3 or 4 years ago that they can move points around between the different room sizes. I thought a studio had to add up to the same total for the entire year. Not true, they can make studios go up and 1 bedrooms go down or vice versa.
I had assumed that they have to be sure that the total number of points for each Unit within the resort stays the same. A Unit can consist of more than one room size, for example Unit 43 at AKV consists of two dedicated studios and one 2BR lockoff. If they sold X number of points in Unit 43 at AKV, I would think that they can't reallocate such that that Unit (or any other) would consist of fewer points than they sold to the members.

Some Units at AKV consist of just one room size, for instance there are Units that contain two 2BR lockoffs or three dedicated studios or one GV. In some cases some rooms within a Unit have a Savanna View and others have a Standard View.

It must take someone with an advanced degree in mathematics and a supercomputer to do these reallocations. I like mathematical puzzles but I can't imagine tackling this one.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle29 View Post
It was my understanding that DVC could change the dates for the different seasons (Adventure, Choice, Magic, Premier) from year to year but the total # of points for those seasons couldn't change. In other words, comparing 2013 to 2014, the entire point structure has remained the same, yet there are fewer days in Choice season (and more in Magic season) in 2014 vs 2013

Choice 2013: 150 days
Choice 2014: 135 days

Magic 2013: 93 days
Magic 2014: 108 days

Can they legally do this?
It is odd, especially since the number of points per night were not adjusted. I looked back at 2012 and the numbers from that year are in between those for 2013 and 2014. Here is what I came up with for 2012-2014:

Choice 2012: 143 days
Choice 2013: 150 days
Choice 2014: 136 days

Magic 2012: 102 days
Magic 2013: 95 days
Magic 2014: 109 days
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:45 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by LisaS View Post
It is odd, especially since the number of points per night were not adjusted. I looked back at 2012 and the numbers from that year are in between those for 2013 and 2014. Here is what I came up with for 2012-2014:

Choice 2012: 143 days
Choice 2013: 150 days
Choice 2014: 136 days

Magic 2012: 102 days
Magic 2013: 95 days
Magic 2014: 109 days

As I mentioned above the issue is Easter. All that is happenning is that the premiere Easter weeks are moving. At VGC, March 1 through April 6 is in magic season and April 7 through 30 in choice season but the two Easter weeks keep moving within those times and taking away from days available in those seasons and putting them in premiere season. In 2012 part of the Easter time came from magic season and part from choice season; in 2013, all the Easter time came from magic season; and in 2014, all the Easter time will come from the choice season. You won't notice any change at the WDW resorts because all of March and April is magic season except for the two Easter weeks regardless of when they fall.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by drusba View Post
As I mentioned above the issue is Easter. All that is happenning is that the premiere Easter weeks are moving. At VGC, March 1 through April 6 is in magic season and April 7 through 30 in choice season but the two Easter weeks keep moving within those times and taking away from days available in those seasons and putting them in premiere season. In 2012 part of the Easter time came from magic season and part from choice season; in 2013, all the Easter time came from magic season; and in 2014, all the Easter time will come from the choice season.
Yes, there is no doubt that it is Easter that is causing this but given that point values within those seasons are not changing, the total points for the entire resort for the year ARE changing, unless we're missing something here.

The WDW resorts keep things in balance by keeping all of March and April in Magic and Premier seasons. Each year, the two weeks either side of Easter move from Magic into Premier season and two weeks move out of Premier back to Magic season so everything balances. The total points for the resorts do not change. That does not appear to be the case here.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by LisaS View Post
Yes, there is no doubt that it is Easter that is causing this but given that point values within those seasons are not changing, the total points for the entire resort for the year ARE changing, unless we're missing something here.

The WDW resorts keep things in balance by keeping all of March and April in Magic and Premier seasons. Each year, the two weeks either side of Easter move from Magic into Premier season and two weeks move out of Premier back to Magic season so everything balances. The total points for the resorts do not change. That does not appear to be the case here.
But I don't see how the total points are changing year to year. There are always the two Easter weeks with the same total of premiere points. When both Easter weeks sit in what is otherwise the magic season the difference between the magic season points and Easter season points ends up in the longer choice season. When both Easter weeks are in choice season side, the bigger difference between the choice season points and premiere season are ending up in the longer magic season. When the Easter weeks straddle the two some of the point difference is in other magic weeks and some in other choice weeks. Mathematically the total points for the entire resort for the year should not be changing.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:18 PM   #13
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To get some real numbers, I used an online point calculator to calculate the number of points needed to book each room size for an entire year. Here are the results. The points creep up each year for 2011, 2012 and 2014 but are lower in 2013 as you would expect since it has the largest number of nights in the less expensive Choice season and the smallest number of nights in the more expensive Magic season.

The Total column is the cost to book one room of each type for every night of the year.

Code:
     Grand Californian Villas
Point Cost per Room for an Entire Year

         Studio    1BR     2BR     GV    TOTAL
2014:     8598   16,904  23,218  48,670  97,390
2013:     8506   16,710  22,946  47,990  96,152
2012:     8582   16,869  23,168  48,512  97,131
2011:     8549   16,774  23,050  48,360  96,733
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Last edited by LisaS; 04-02-2013 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Add a "TOTAL" column
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drusba View Post
But I don't see how the total points are changing year to year. There are always the two Easter weeks with the same total of premiere points. When both Easter weeks sit in what is otherwise the magic season the difference between the magic season points and Easter season points ends up in the longer choice season. When both Easter weeks are in choice season side, the bigger difference between the choice season points and premiere season are ending up in the longer magic season. When the Easter weeks straddle the two some of the point difference is in other magic weeks and some in other choice weeks. Mathematically the total points for the entire resort for the year should not be changing.
Let's put this in the form of an equation.

Let A be the average cost of a night in Adventure season, C for choice season, M for Magic season and P for Premier season. The approximate cost to book every night for a year in a given room size is:

For 2014: 82*A + 136*C + 109*M + 38*P
For 2013: 82*A + 150*C + 95*M + 38*P

In order for the results of both calculations to be equal, then the following must be true:

136*C + 109*M = 150*C + 95*M

To simplify further, subtract 136*C and 95*M from both sides, leaving:

14*M = 14*C

But we know that M (the average cost of a night in Magic season) is greater than C (the average cost of a night in Choice season) so the total points for 2013 and 2014 cannot be equal.

We can calculate the difference by looking at the cost difference of a week in each of those seasons and multiplying by two. Let's use a 1BR as an example (the formula is generic and applies equally to every room type). A 1BR costs 388 points in Magic season and 291 in Choice season, a difference of 97 points. Multiplied by two, that's 194 points.

Looking back at the chart I posted, the actual number of points required for a 1BR in 2013 is 16,710 and for 2014 is 16,904, exactly 194 points.

ETA: The point I'm trying to make here is that from 2013 to 2014, DVC moved 14 nights from a less costly season to a more expensive season. Since there is no reduction in the points per night for any room from 2013 to 2014, then mathematically speaking, the cost to book each room type for an entire year must go up from 2013 to 2014, just as the cost went down from 2012 to 2013.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:40 PM   #15
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Let A be the average cost of a night in Adventure season, C for choice season, M for Magic season and P for Premier season. The approximate cost to book every night for a year in a given room size is:
Forgive me for snipping a wonderful piece of mathematics. The problem with this illustration is its based on a single type of room. DVC is only obligated to keep the total number of points for the entire resort unchanged. There is nothing to prevent them from changing the allocation among differing room sizes.
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