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Old 02-02-2014, 12:06 AM   #211
Borishack
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nobody else's personal life is any of your (or anyone else who is protesting orca's at Sea World) business, so quit telling people what they should or should not do or feel about whales at Sea World (not just directed at you, but also the others in this thread that say people should be ashamed of taking their kids to Sea World).
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:28 PM   #212
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Lex, I may not have "learned anything" that I couldn't have learned from reading many books, or seeing countless documentaries, it has to be a lot because of all the bs out there like Blackfish, but unlike you, I know a portion of my money goes to the vet care, the feeding of, the studies of these captive animals, so researchers can learn more to help the animals in the wild. I also know that another portion of my money goes to helping injured dolphins, manatees, and orcas in the wild. I also know that a portion of my money goes to grants and scholarships to help those who because of SeaWorld, have dreams of helping and working with these animals. What have you done with your money ??
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:45 PM   #213
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Just one observation. You cannot kidnap a whale or any animal for that matter because, well, they are just animals.
I am pretty sure I could try. Of course I would need to rent a truck, cane and some sort of container.....

But I think I could crew up and do it?
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:57 PM   #214
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I am pretty sure I could try. Of course I would need to rent a truck, cane and some sort of container.....

But I think I could crew up and do it?
You need a beat up old Klingon Bird of Prey and about 10000 square yards of transparent aluminum.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:31 PM   #215
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Wow, regardless of their earnings vs Disney, that is a pretty impressive increase for Sea World. Im surprised, we weren't all that impressed last year.
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Old 02-16-2014, 06:49 AM   #216
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You need a beat up old Klingon Bird of Prey and about 10000 square yards of transparent aluminum.
Lol
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:37 PM   #217
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Lex, I may not have "learned anything" that I couldn't have learned from reading many books, or seeing countless documentaries, it has to be a lot because of all the bs out there like Blackfish, but unlike you, I know a portion of my money goes to the vet care, the feeding of, the studies of these captive animals, so researchers can learn more to help the animals in the wild. I also know that another portion of my money goes to helping injured dolphins, manatees, and orcas in the wild. I also know that a portion of my money goes to grants and scholarships to help those who because of SeaWorld, have dreams of helping and working with these animals. What have you done with your money ??
You were correct on one thing, your money likely does go towards the (very) basic care that Seaworld gives it's Orca's, as well as the other fish and animals in their care. Might even go on those scholarships too! But Seaworld does very little animal cresearch in the wild. If anything they try to profit off wild animals by buying off Russian and Asian Fishermen, seeing as laws prohibit them catching any more whales. They just tried to buy up a number of beluga whales caught in Russia.

Also way to make assumptions, just because someone might not support a place like Seaworld, does not mean they do not support or fund other causes. IMO I think those who do come down hard on Seaworld visitors do not help their cause. It can't be helped, people buy into the assumption that the whales are happy and well provided for. When the history of the captivity of this species really rather suggests otherwise.

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Just one observation. You cannot kidnap a whale or any animal for that matter because, well, they are just animals.
That's a kind of ignorant comment, animals are really not *just* animals. I will agree many animals are quite capable of adjusting to solo/captive life or don't really have a family structure that concerns the individual too much, but Cetaceans are pretty intelligent animals with strong family bonds within their pods. Male Orcas stay their their mothers their entire lives, they will never leave her side bar for playing with other Orca males or mating, and if their mother dies, they will attach to a next of kin.

Most of the older Captive Orca's were taken from their family as young calves. Not rescued or saved from any untimely accident. Their Pods were forcibly rounded up, trapped in a cove - and then the fishermen deliberately picked the healthiest, and easiest to transport whales to take. The pod didn't just abandon the captive Whales, they made distress calls when their child/brother/sister were taken and stayed with them for long as they could (often following ships or trucks with their relative on-board) till their lost relative was too far away now to call back.

They don't just forget the ones lost too, one of the longest living whales in captivity - "Corky" was once played the unique sound-tones of her family pod in 1993, 20+ years after her capture, by a news channel. Corky visibly shakes, in the way a human shakes when dealing with something that invokes strong emotional feelings in them. Corky remembered her pod and likely still does. How would you feel if someone forcibly took you from your family, and the only contact you had was one tape recorded message from them in 45 years (that isn't even a message, just voices you recognise being taped unaware)

IMO I wouldn't not ever go to Seaworld again, but my view of them as a park is somewhat tainted by the fact they have repeatedly blocked release of ANY of their whales, and pretend that what they do offer those Whales is enough for them, when it's not. Tillikum spends most of his time stuck in a pool that's JUST big enough to fit him, only occasionally let out to do the big "splash" people expect at the end of the Shamu shows. He's even denied any interaction, because Trainers are pretty much not allowed anywhere near him now. But Seaworld won't release him, or put him down, because he's their babymaker and the biggest, most impressive looking whale they've got. He also can't really interact with the other Orcas, despite his size - "Tilly" is male and his fellow Orca's are female. In Orca society, females are the heads of the family, Tilly is pretty much socially on the bottom rung, and because he's from a different pod - many of the females will just bite and attack him. What kind of a life is that for any creature?

I'm sure he's fed well enough and his trainers do what they can for him, within the limits Seaworld have placed on him. But an Orca isn't in any way like a cat that can have the occasional freedom of it's local "home" area or provide it's own entertainment. Tilly's just stuck in a plain-boring tank with hardly any wriggle space and everyone kept at distance. I'm not sure any human or company could give an Orca the actual basics they really need to keep them happy.

They also went a fair length to prevent the real Willy, Keiko, from being freed. The only reason they didn't go whole hog and buy the poor whale was because he had a skin disease, thanks to the terrible conditions Keiko was living in over in Mexico. A condition that healed up soon as he was in proper water again. He even managed a fair few years in captivity fine after all the debate about if he would cope or not. Of course it wasn't a resounding success, but for a first attempt, At least Keiko could enjoy the last years of his life free in the ocean, before his untimely death in 2003.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:51 PM   #218
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We love Sea World and have plans to visit in November.
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:11 PM   #219
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You were correct on one thing, your money likely does go towards the (very) basic care that Seaworld gives it's Orca's, as well as the other fish and animals in their care. Might even go on those scholarships too! But Seaworld does very little animal cresearch in the wild. If anything they try to profit off wild animals by buying off Russian and Asian Fishermen, seeing as laws prohibit them catching any more whales. They just tried to buy up a number of beluga whales caught in Russia.

Also way to make assumptions, just because someone might not support a place like Seaworld, does not mean they do not support or fund other causes. IMO I think those who do come down hard on Seaworld visitors do not help their cause. It can't be helped, people buy into the assumption that the whales are happy and well provided for. When the history of the captivity of this species really rather suggests otherwise.

That's a kind of ignorant comment, animals are really not *just* animals. I will agree many animals are quite capable of adjusting to solo/captive life or don't really have a family structure that concerns the individual too much, but Cetaceans are pretty intelligent animals with strong family bonds within their pods. Male Orcas stay their their mothers their entire lives, they will never leave her side bar for playing with other Orca males or mating, and if their mother dies, they will attach to a next of kin.

Most of the older Captive Orca's were taken from their family as young calves. Not rescued or saved from any untimely accident. Their Pods were forcibly rounded up, trapped in a cove - and then the fishermen deliberately picked the healthiest, and easiest to transport whales to take. The pod didn't just abandon the captive Whales, they made distress calls when their child/brother/sister were taken and stayed with them for long as they could (often following ships or trucks with their relative on-board) till their lost relative was too far away now to call back.

They don't just forget the ones lost too, one of the longest living whales in captivity - "Corky" was once played the unique sound-tones of her family pod in 1993, 20+ years after her capture, by a news channel. Corky visibly shakes, in the way a human shakes when dealing with something that invokes strong emotional feelings in them. Corky remembered her pod and likely still does. How would you feel if someone forcibly took you from your family, and the only contact you had was one tape recorded message from them in 45 years (that isn't even a message, just voices you recognise being taped unaware)

IMO I wouldn't not ever go to Seaworld again, but my view of them as a park is somewhat tainted by the fact they have repeatedly blocked release of ANY of their whales, and pretend that what they do offer those Whales is enough for them, when it's not. Tillikum spends most of his time stuck in a pool that's JUST big enough to fit him, only occasionally let out to do the big "splash" people expect at the end of the Shamu shows. He's even denied any interaction, because Trainers are pretty much not allowed anywhere near him now. But Seaworld won't release him, or put him down, because he's their babymaker and the biggest, most impressive looking whale they've got. He also can't really interact with the other Orcas, despite his size - "Tilly" is male and his fellow Orca's are female. In Orca society, females are the heads of the family, Tilly is pretty much socially on the bottom rung, and because he's from a different pod - many of the females will just bite and attack him. What kind of a life is that for any creature?

I'm sure he's fed well enough and his trainers do what they can for him, within the limits Seaworld have placed on him. But an Orca isn't in any way like a cat that can have the occasional freedom of it's local "home" area or provide it's own entertainment. Tilly's just stuck in a plain-boring tank with hardly any wriggle space and everyone kept at distance. I'm not sure any human or company could give an Orca the actual basics they really need to keep them happy.

They also went a fair length to prevent the real Willy, Keiko, from being freed. The only reason they didn't go whole hog and buy the poor whale was because he had a skin disease, thanks to the terrible conditions Keiko was living in over in Mexico. A condition that healed up soon as he was in proper water again. He even managed a fair few years in captivity fine after all the debate about if he would cope or not. Of course it wasn't a resounding success, but for a first attempt, At least Keiko could enjoy the last years of his life free in the ocean, before his untimely death in 2003.
I am not making assumptions , I asked her a legitimate question. Which she has failed to answer. Also, SeaWorld as a company does not do research in the wild, I never said they do, they do however fund a lot of it, by generous grants given to institutions that deal with Oceanography, and Marine Biology. They are the only entertainment company I know of that gives back to what brings them money, which are the preservation of ocean animals in the wild. If PETA would just put 1% of the money they spend trying to make people feel guilty about going to SeaWorld, or the circus, or the zoo, etc into the actual researchers who are constantly studying these animals and are trying to find ways to make the oceans safe for them, and reproduce, they would be doing more service to the animals. The care these animals get is not basic. The vet care these animals get is the best in the world. If it were not for SeaWorld, only those living on the northern west coast would even know what an Orca is
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:33 AM   #220
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If PETA would just put 1% of the money they spend trying to make people feel guilty about going to SeaWorld, or the circus, or the zoo, etc into the actual researchers who are constantly studying these animals and are trying to find ways to make the oceans safe for them, and reproduce, they would be doing more service to the animals.
They are too busy protesting about the scientific labs because of using various species as a research models.

I love animals.... put my years in as a kennel worker at our local animal shelter. But sometimes there is no pleasing the animal rights extremists, they turn against even those who are in the trenches trying to do 'good'. Case in point... my Facebook feed right now is filled with the news and outrage over the euthanization of a blind/deaf feral aggressive cat at a shelter... there are reports of people issuing threats and vitriol against the shelter workers.... these are the folks who work very hard for very little pay, caring and helping hundreds of animals a year.

Practice what you preach... or how about just don't preach. Providing information is one thing... but when it is packaged with hypocrisy and a guilt trip it crosses the line IMHO.

FYI...If you wear leather or purchase factory farmed meats... ie any regular available meat product at your local supermarket (pork, beef, chicken etc)... you are contributing financially to far more horror being committed on your fellow animals on a daily basis than what Sea World or any other Dolphinarium can ever muster. Google gestation crate if you need convincing.

I am very lucky (I totally know this is not realistic for everyone's situation)... but my family comes from a farming background and we still live in a rural area and have the luxury of purchasing ALL our meats from a local CSA (Communities Supporting Agriculture) farm and have the reassurance of knowing the provenance of what will eventually go into my children. Yes... lb for lb it costs more... but to us it totally is worth it. Not only are we helping to protect a way of life (family farming) that is disappearing in America... but every time the news has some story about contamination or another major meat recall... we are relieved it does not apply to us.

Life is rarely black or white, there often are many shades of grey in between (255 if you are using 8bit)

Personally I hope to visit Sea World some day.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:26 PM   #221
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Practice what you preach... or how about just don't preach. Providing information is one thing... but when it is packaged with hypocrisy and a guilt trip it crosses the line IMHO.
I don't guilt anyone, IMO if people want go to Seaworld, then who am I to stop you or tell you how awful you are to have a good time? I've been to Seaworld myself and won't deny that I have enjoyed my visits, though I already knew years before "Blackfish" that the ways Orca's had gotten to the parks was fair from being in the interests of the animals safety.

As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss. I was one of those people too before. I'm hardly any hippy tree hugging sort who goes on regular protest. But reading about the subject (and trust me, I've tried not to follow any "angle" but what I've seen of these "incidents" like the captures and stuff that's happened at the parks) I have to be honest, I don't see the real benefit for the Orcas or any consideration for them where it's needed.

Heck even the doc isn't suggesting that anyone is a bad person for wanting to care for the whales, the former trainers themselves say they stayed at Seaworld *because* they cared about the Orcas and thought they were making a difference. If anything the doc focuses more on how Seaworld covered up Tilly's involvement in Katie Holmes' death at Sealand, and various incidents that the other trainers were given zero details about. Though they do also discuss how the dysfunctional mixing of Orca's also resulted in many injuries and at least one Orca death.

The whole thing reminds me of another intelligent creature that was given plenty of care but not what he really needed. Project Nim. Tale of a chimpanzee who was saved from an early death at a lab by a family, who tried to raise him like a kid, the guy then shuttled him between "trainers" after divorcing, usually just by telling them to never come back and giving the poor chimp no means of adjusting. On top of all that, when he matured and became sexually active, there was no way to relieve all the frustration that came with that. The guy later sold him back to the labs her had originally spared the chimp from at birth, all because he got tired and suddenly didn't want to fund Nim's needs anymore. Eventually he was freed and got to spend the rest of his days in a ranch enclosure.

Long story short, he attacked 2 of his female trainers, one while in a rage. The other being his original female caretaker, who hadn't been to see Nim in over 30 years. Grabbing her by the legs and bashing her about his enclosure. Both of those trainers hadn't done anything wrong, outside the latter abandoning the animal years before. The animal was just angry, and had a right to be angry at being abandoned. Heck the female trainers even admitted he had every right to mad at them for something. But that anger was not something they could manage or control. When Nim was angry, all they could do is hope they were not in his way when he was *really* ticked off.

With that in mind, an Orca is much bigger, and hard to avoid if your in it's vicinity and it's ticked off. People seem to have this idea that, because an animal is intelligent, you can stop it from getting angry ever somehow (man if there's a magic trick to stopping a really bad blues day, I'ld love to know!). Orca's are not like puppies where at worst, it'll give you a nasty nip, an angry Orca can do serious damage without even really trying.

Quote:
FYI...If you wear leather or purchase factory farmed meats... ie any regular available meat product at your local supermarket (pork, beef, chicken etc)... you are contributing financially to far more horror being committed on your fellow animals on a daily basis than what Sea World or any other Dolphinarium can ever muster. Google gestation crate if you need convincing.
This is assuming that someone's personal goal is that all animals never be hurt or die at the hands of a human ever. This catch all argument in this discussion is something I've seen a few assume of cetacean anti-caps when this generally isn't the case.

I eat meat, I have no shame in admitting that. But I look for things like "free range" when I choose meat. I'ld rather the animal I eat at least lived enough of a life before seeing the chopping board. Naturally there are people who don't feel that strongly, or people who feel that isn't enough.

People petition for cetaceans because they are proven to be incredibly intelligent species. Most animals thrive in captivity, because they can adapt and they are small enough that Humans can create the habitats they need or provide the care they need to be happy. Of course for wild animals, nothing quite makes up for the real thing. But most animals are happy enough to be provided for long as their needs are accounted for.

Of course if your animal is something that can grow big, and might cause harm later on, then you need to consider what is in yours, your employees and the animals best interest. If it's violent or prone to rages, your maybe shouldn't keep it near humans that it could easilly hurt, if they used their full strength against them.

Catacean's are different though, their habitats are HUGE. The entire ocean is pretty much their home. Their pods are their families which is enormously important to them. Seaworld can't provide any of that, or if they were serious about making sure the orca's were happy, they'ld try and expand the pools for the Orca's benefit, or allow them to go to sea pens near where their Pods are regularly seen and a chance to go "home".

IMO I wouldn't have a problem if I thought catacean needs could actually be covered in a man-made park. But happy Orca's shouldn't be constantly raking and hurting others in their artificial "pods", they also shouldn't be dying earlier in captivity than they would in the wild, suffering from lost/worn teeth due to chewing walls and gates in boredom. Or dealing with intensely un-natural and stressful situations like separations from their calves.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:24 PM   #222
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....
I eat meat, I have no shame in admitting that. But I look for things like "free range" when I choose meat. I'ld rather the animal I eat at least lived enough of a life before seeing the chopping board. Naturally there are people who don't feel that strongly, or people who feel that isn't enough...

Not for the squeamish:


http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...atural/237006/

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:21 PM   #223
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I'd like to personally thank the makers of Blackfish. We are at SeaWorld Camp this week, and for the first time EVER they offered 50% off the second week of camp. My kids are going again in 2 weeks! They are beyond excited and so am I. What a fantastic deal! Not sure why they offered the deal as most camps were booked up, but I'll take it I told DH that it was the "Blackfish Effect". He doesn't buy it, but it's as good an explanation as any. I've never gotten more than a 10% discount before. I guess they want their camps 100% full, and I'll bet that this does it!

BTW, SeaWorld itself is as crowded as I've ever seen it.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:50 PM   #224
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I have always disliked seaworld. Blackfish only confirmed my feelings. I bet most of you sea world supporters have not watched the movie or done any unbiased research. Can't say I am surprised most people don't care. Look at the documentaries: fast food nation, supersize me and sick, fat and nearly dead--people are still eating McDonald's and drinking soda / eating in excess. Americans will be like the cruise ship characters on Walle before we know it.
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:20 PM   #225
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I have always disliked seaworld. Blackfish only confirmed my feelings. I bet most of you sea world supporters have not watched the movie or done any unbiased research. Can't say I am surprised most people don't care. Look at the documentaries: fast food nation, supersize me and sick, fat and nearly dead--people are still eating McDonald's and drinking soda / eating in excess. Americans will be like the cruise ship characters on Walle before we know it.
And people will believe everything they see on TV. Go figure.
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