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Old 04-15-2013, 12:35 PM   #286
Allison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
The only ones with a moral obligation to keep kids safe while on a vacation, or cruise, etc are the parents. Its not wrong to ask parents to change their "policies" in cases like this before asking WDW too. So by saying its was just an accident and absolving the parents of any responsibility in the accident, one has to say the same about WDW (corp or not).
Yes, what happened was a tragic accident. But that doesn't change the fact that had Chases parents done things differently, it was very preventable. If WDW changes things, it could have been prevented as well.
And I'm sorry but pointing out facts isn't insulting, it is what it is.
Do you have information on what Chase's parents did? Please share if you have those facts.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:59 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison View Post
Do you have information on what Chase's parents did? Please share if you have those facts.
From my understanding, Chase's parents lost their little one while on board. Apparently it was crazy packed and they lost their kid in the crowd. They found Chase just as someone was doing CPR on him. Heartbreaking.

So I ask luvmy3, how can this be prevented? How could Chase's parents have prevented this? put him on a leash? What do you do when your kid just runs off suddenly? its happened to most parents im sure. So sad.
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Old 04-15-2013, 02:25 PM   #288
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I am not a fan of calling every tragedy an accident. Accidents have root causes and many (most even) are preventable. Slip and fall on a wet pool deck? Accident or failure to teach your child not run run around a pool. not ever. The most amazing to me was the 4 teens who died in a high speed impact after
- violating license restrictions allowing only 1 passenger for a teen driver
- driving after sunset
- driving over the speed limit
- and texting while driving.
The discussions all sounded like this the one in this thread. So many just wanted to call it a tragic accident and end it at that. Many comments focused on the kids. Very few focused on the parent who agreed to let their daughter take the car out knowing she would be violating 3 laws, and not understanding their daughter was not responsible enough to be driving yet.

What do you do when your kids run off? At age 4, no child should slip away that far. They should be holding hands and the moment they slip away you should be in pursuit. A cruise ship has many dangers, not just the pools. The rails all along the sides of every deck won't stop a 4 year old from going overboard or falling to a lower deck.
-------
The school safety police offer in my area has a very clear statement about what parents should be doing with their children in a public setting:

Under 5: within touch - holding hands or your hand on their shoulder so you know exactly where they are.
Age 5-8: within sight - parent eyes on child without fail.
Age 9-12: within hearing - you can hear any wrong sounds or yells
Age 13+: Based on child's demonstration of judgement
-------
I was a certified lifeguard for a number of years at a public beach and I watch the child and parent behaviors at Disney's pools with great interest whenever I am there. Far too many parents turn their children over to the pool and then: sit around a table and talk, or, lay down and turn to the best sun angle, or nap, or... leave.. or never show up as noted in an earlier post. I sit facing the pool and I don't take my eyes off my daughter. Her safety at a pool is my responsibility and hers, whether there is a lifeguard or not. The biggest danger? Getting kicked in the head by somebody swimming nearby or engaging in horseplay. The second biggest danger? She does yet not have the experience and judgement to know what is safe and what is not. Actually, the first time I let her go to the pool without an adult she was age 12, under these conditions, and with my judgement that should was now responsible enought to follow these rules without fail:
- no running
- no jumping in (never diving, never ever)
- no horseplay
- no underwater swimming
- stay away from others who are playing rough, get out if necessary
And this was a risk vs. responsibility judgement I had to make. If there had been an accident, despite this, it would be MY FAULT for allowing the situation. Not Disney's fault for having no lifeguards, and not a blameless accident.

Pools are extremely dangerous. Think of them like letting your kids play jumprope near live electric wires. The ONE thing I think Disney and all hotels should do is place fences around all pools. That does seem to be their trend now.

Cruise ships: Most cruises cater to families and kids now. There is no room on a cruise ship to fence the pools...the rails are dangerous too... so if you choose to go on a cruise keep your children attached or in front of you. That is what we did for the 5 cruises we took while our daughter was under age 13. We even took her all over Europe in 18 days by train and walking at age 8.

Some parents would call my daughter timid. She is slow to cross a road, asks permission to do anything, and she tells other kids what they are doing is too dangerous and does not participate. She did not learn to ride a bike becuase she does not want to be on a road with cars. She is safety conscious.

That's how I was growing up. I like it this way as a parent too.

Ever seen your child running around the pool deck? What did you do?
a) nothing, kids will be kids
b) let the lifeguard deal with it, it's a stupid rule anyway, I never got hurt
c) yelled at them (for the 100th time) to stop running
d) got up, stopped the child, sat them down for a timeout and intense discussion about what happens when you slip and fall at a pool
e) immediately took them away from the pool and ended the pool privilege for that day.

I think there are only 2 correct answers.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellebud View Post

At every Disney pool I've been to, the lifeguards all sit the entire time, all wear sunglasses, and many seem to be unaware of happenings in the pool. On more than a few occasions, I've felt like the lifeguards were sleeping behind those sunglasses.
I spent a lot of time both at and in a Disney pool this last week and this was definitely not the case. The lifeguards were standing up, walking around the pool and on high alert the entire time, probably due to the drowning at Pop.

I don't blame them for wearing sunglasses. Have you ever tried to stare at a pool for hours in the glaring sun?
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:11 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParrotBill View Post
I am not a fan of calling every tragedy an accident. Accidents have root causes and many (most even) are preventable. Slip and fall on a wet pool deck? Accident or failure to teach your child not run run around a pool. not ever. The most amazing to me was the 4 teens who died in a high speed impact after
- violating license restrictions allowing only 1 passenger for a teen driver
- driving after sunset
- driving over the speed limit
- and texting while driving.
The discussions all sounded like this the one in this thread. So many just wanted to call it a tragic accident and end it at that. Many comments focused on the kids. Very few focused on the parent who agreed to let their daughter take the car out knowing she would be violating 3 laws, and not understanding their daughter was not responsible enough to be driving yet.

What do you do when your kids run off? At age 4, no child should slip away that far. They should be holding hands and the moment they slip away you should be in pursuit. A cruise ship has many dangers, not just the pools. The rails all along the sides of every deck won't stop a 4 year old from going overboard or falling to a lower deck.
-------
The school safety police offer in my area has a very clear statement about what parents should be doing with their children in a public setting:

Under 5: within touch - holding hands or your hand on their shoulder so you know exactly where they are.
Age 5-8: within sight - parent eyes on child without fail.
Age 9-12: within hearing - you can hear any wrong sounds or yells
Age 13+: Based on child's demonstration of judgement
-------
I was a certified lifeguard for a number of years at a public beach and I watch the child and parent behaviors at Disney's pools with great interest whenever I am there. Far too many parents turn their children over to the pool and then: sit around a table and talk, or, lay down and turn to the best sun angle, or nap, or... leave.. or never show up as noted in an earlier post. I sit facing the pool and I don't take my eyes off my daughter. Her safety at a pool is my responsibility and hers, whether there is a lifeguard or not. The biggest danger? Getting kicked in the head by somebody swimming nearby or engaging in horseplay. The second biggest danger? She does yet not have the experience and judgement to know what is safe and what is not. Actually, the first time I let her go to the pool without an adult she was age 12, under these conditions, and with my judgement that should was now responsible enought to follow these rules without fail:
- no running
- no jumping in (never diving, never ever)
- no horseplay
- no underwater swimming
- stay away from others who are playing rough, get out if necessary
And this was a risk vs. responsibility judgement I had to make. If there had been an accident, despite this, it would be MY FAULT for allowing the situation. Not Disney's fault for having no lifeguards, and not a blameless accident.

Pools are extremely dangerous. Think of them like letting your kids play jumprope near live electric wires. The ONE thing I think Disney and all hotels should do is place fences around all pools. That does seem to be their trend now.

Cruise ships: Most cruises cater to families and kids now. There is no room on a cruise ship to fence the pools...the rails are dangerous too... so if you choose to go on a cruise keep your children attached or in front of you. That is what we did for the 5 cruises we took while our daughter was under age 13. We even took her all over Europe in 18 days by train and walking at age 8.

Some parents would call my daughter timid. She is slow to cross a road, asks permission to do anything, and she tells other kids what they are doing is too dangerous and does not participate. She did not learn to ride a bike becuase she does not want to be on a road with cars. She is safety conscious.

That's how I was growing up. I like it this way as a parent too.

Ever seen your child running around the pool deck? What did you do?
a) nothing, kids will be kids
b) let the lifeguard deal with it, it's a stupid rule anyway, I never got hurt
c) yelled at them (for the 100th time) to stop running
d) got up, stopped the child, sat them down for a timeout and intense discussion about what happens when you slip and fall at a pool
e) immediately took them away from the pool and ended the pool privilege for that day.

I think there are only 2 correct answers.
I agree with you.

Per the red, I saw a lot of that behavior this last week, too. Many of the parents were oblivious to their children in the pool.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey'snewestfan View Post
Yes, accidents happen and this was an accident. Is it OK, after an accident to look at our own practices, and at those of institutions to try and avoid a repeat.
The legal term for an entity making improvements or changes after an "accident" is subsequent remedial measures. Thank God that companies do this to prevent future situations. It's the equivilent of "live it - learn it" for companies.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:13 PM   #292
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[QUOTE=NoSoup4U;48110791

So I ask luvmy3, how can this be prevented? How could Chase's parents have prevented this? put him on a leash? What do you do when your kid just runs off suddenly? its happened to most parents im sure. So sad. [/QUOTE]

On a cruise ship? If your young child runs away, you are right after them. Your eyes shouldn't be off of them long enough that you don't know where they went. Or you use a leash if you know they are a runner. No shame in doing that.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:31 PM   #293
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I was at a Disney resort this past week and we spent a lot of time at the quiet pool which has no lifeguard. Every single time we were there we saw kids with no adults. Apparently there are a lot of parents who don't supervise their kids in the pool. I was horrified. I had no idea this was so common. When we were at the big pool the lifeguards were very actively watching the pool not just sitting.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:44 PM   #294
Lorelei Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
The only ones with a moral obligation to keep kids safe while on a vacation, or cruise, etc are the parents. Its not wrong to ask parents to change their "policies" in cases like this before asking WDW too. So by saying its was just an accident and absolving the parents of any responsibility in the accident, one has to say the same about WDW (corp or not).
Yes, what happened was a tragic accident. But that doesn't change the fact that had Chases parents done things differently, it was very preventable. If WDW changes things, it could have been prevented as well.
And I'm sorry but pointing out facts isn't insulting, it is what it is.
Do you know how the accident happened, that you can say with authority that the parents could have prevented this?
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:45 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxiesmom View Post
On a cruise ship? If your young child runs away, you are right after them. Your eyes shouldn't be off of them long enough that you don't know where they went. Or you use a leash if you know they are a runner. No shame in doing that.
??????

I do believe they were "right after him".
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:46 PM   #296
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Seriously, I wish all these perfect parents would get off their soapbox and realize that some of us, even when we do watch our children and even when we realize immediately and run after them can have a child get out of sight. It can happen to the best parents, and my own personal opinion from reading the caring bridge sight and the actual accounts of what happened, is that this did happen to the "best parents". I will further say that these parents are remarkable in their reaction and their faith - and I would rather stand by them any day than those that choose to judge and be so uncaring.

Fine, there are parents that are not good at watching their kids. We all know that, we see it everywhere, not just on a cruise, but it is wrong to make assumptions in this circumstance. As I say to my kids when they complain, etc. - how are you helping the situation? Likewise I think, how do these caustic, callous, judgmental comments help anything but spread your negativity like venom. Flame away. I lived before being on the boards, I am new, I can live without it, but I can't stand seeing these sanctimonious bullies judge a family that truly could be any one of us, whether you like to think it or not.
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Old 04-15-2013, 04:56 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJinPA View Post
Seriously, I wish all these perfect parents would get off their soapbox and realize that some of us, even when we do watch our children and even when we realize immediately and run after them can have a child get out of sight. It can happen to the best parents, and my own personal opinion from reading the caring bridge sight and the actual accounts of what happened, is that this did happen to the "best parents". I will further say that these parents are remarkable in their reaction and their faith - and I would rather stand by them any day than those that choose to judge and be so uncaring.

Fine, there are parents that are not good at watching their kids. We all know that, we see it everywhere, not just on a cruise, but it is wrong to make assumptions in this circumstance. As I say to my kids when they complain, etc. - how are you helping the situation? Likewise I think, how do these caustic, callous, judgmental comments help anything but spread your negativity like venom. Flame away. I lived before being on the boards, I am new, I can live without it, but I can't stand seeing these sanctimonious bullies judge a family that truly could be any one of us, whether you like to think it or not.
No flames here. I agree.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:26 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJinPA View Post
Seriously, I wish all these perfect parents would get off their soapbox and realize that some of us, even when we do watch our children and even when we realize immediately and run after them can have a child get out of sight. It can happen to the best parents, and my own personal opinion from reading the caring bridge sight and the actual accounts of what happened, is that this did happen to the "best parents". I will further say that these parents are remarkable in their reaction and their faith - and I would rather stand by them any day than those that choose to judge and be so uncaring.
You can stand by someone and still wish they had done things differently. But hindsight is perfect, and none of us are. I can wish they had used a leash, but I also have seen the abuse heaped on those who do use them by others on the boards.

I just hope by having this discussion, even if it gets a bit confrontational, at least one parent will give extra care when watching their children anywhere there is a pool. And I always think back to the post a few months ago by someone who wanted to let their 3 kids go to the pool unsupervised, and how some of us were called nuts and over-protective for thinking it was a bad idea.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:40 PM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJinPA View Post
Seriously, I wish all these perfect parents would get off their soapbox and realize that some of us, even when we do watch our children and even when we realize immediately and run after them can have a child get out of sight. It can happen to the best parents, and my own personal opinion from reading the caring bridge sight and the actual accounts of what happened, is that this did happen to the "best parents". I will further say that these parents are remarkable in their reaction and their faith - and I would rather stand by them any day than those that choose to judge and be so uncaring.

Fine, there are parents that are not good at watching their kids. We all know that, we see it everywhere, not just on a cruise, but it is wrong to make assumptions in this circumstance. As I say to my kids when they complain, etc. - how are you helping the situation? Likewise I think, how do these caustic, callous, judgmental comments help anything but spread your negativity like venom. Flame away. I lived before being on the boards, I am new, I can live without it, but I can't stand seeing these sanctimonious bullies judge a family that truly could be any one of us, whether you like to think it or not.

The family couldn't of been disers cause disers are the best parents with the best kids that would stray from them. But they also have the worst inlaws')
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:47 PM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJinPA
Seriously, I wish all these perfect parents would get off their soapbox and realize that some of us, even when we do watch our children and even when we realize immediately and run after them can have a child get out of sight. It can happen to the best parents, and my own personal opinion from reading the caring bridge sight and the actual accounts of what happened, is that this did happen to the "best parents". I will further say that these parents are remarkable in their reaction and their faith - and I would rather stand by them any day than those that choose to judge and be so uncaring.

Fine, there are parents that are not good at watching their kids. We all know that, we see it everywhere, not just on a cruise, but it is wrong to make assumptions in this circumstance. As I say to my kids when they complain, etc. - how are you helping the situation? Likewise I think, how do these caustic, callous, judgmental comments help anything but spread your negativity like venom. Flame away. I lived before being on the boards, I am new, I can live without it, but I can't stand seeing these sanctimonious bullies judge a family that truly could be any one of us, whether you like to think it or not.
Totally agree with you!!!!!!
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