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Old 04-11-2013, 03:41 PM   #271
TLSnell1981

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We avoid the pools because they are so crowded and very little pool etiquette is observed. I am very concerned with "the ledge" and "the drop off". This doesn't seem to be kid friendly and is a safety issue IMO

Disney doesn't like to enforce rules and tell people no. They have a moral obligation to their passengers to keep them safe (even though they find every loophole to protect their behinds legally) People are more important, than the bottom line.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by TLSnell1981 View Post
We avoid the pools because they are so crowded and very little pool etiquette is observed. I am very concerned with "the ledge" and "the drop off". This doesn't seem to be kid friendly and is a safety issue IMO

Disney doesn't like to enforce rules and tell people no. They have a moral obligation to their passengers to keep them safe (even though they find every loophole to protect their behinds legally) People are more important, than the bottom line.

Flame suit on...ready.
I'm not going to flame you but I wonder why Disney can be criticized for their lack of "moral obligation" but one cant dare question the parents in this situation. If "accidents happen" is enough to take the blame away from the parents, then "accidents happen" should be enough to take the blame away from Disney too.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #273
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We have already pretty much agreed that accidents can happen, no matter what steps you take to prevent them. So saying Disney has a moral obligation to prevent this is kind of ridiculous. How can any company prevent the un-preventable?

Not to mention, how do you protect people from themselves? Maybe I don't want Disney to protect me from taking a late night swim. Why can't I assume that risk if I choose to? Why are people not responsible for themselves and their family members, but a company should be?

To me that is backwards thinking. We are responsible for ourselves first and foremost. But nowadays it is too easy to blame someone else.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:03 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
I'm not going to flame you but I wonder why Disney can be criticized for their lack of "moral obligation" but one cant dare question the parents in this situation. If "accidents happen" is enough to take the blame away from the parents, then "accidents happen" should be enough to take the blame away from Disney too.
I am not relieving parents of their responsibility and I'm not blaming Disney. The pool area (specifically the cruise ships) is far from ideal and changes are needed. I hope Disney will step up because its the right thing to do.

Last edited by TLSnell1981; 04-11-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:47 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
I'm not going to flame you but I wonder why Disney can be criticized for their lack of "moral obligation" but one cant dare question the parents in this situation. If "accidents happen" is enough to take the blame away from the parents, then "accidents happen" should be enough to take the blame away from Disney too.
If you can't see the moral difference between criticizing grieving parents at the worst point in their lives, and criticizing a corporation, I don't think I can help you. Despite how much people here love Disney, Disney is an unfeeling, amoral entity. Criticizing Disney's corporate policies is not the same as insulting someone's grandma.

Yes, accidents happen and this was an accident. Is it OK, after an accident to look at our own practices, and at those of institutions to try and avoid a repeat. Scientists looked at years of car crash data before designing rear facing baby seats. That doesn't mean that infants who died in car crashes before the seats were used didn't die in "accidents".

In this case, I can imagine that Chase's parents are as motivated as anyone to see that no one else goes through what they're going through. That might involve people changing their individual behavior, and it might involve Disney changing it's corporate behavior. Disney might decide that there are some simple changes they can make that will reduce the likelihood of a repeat, and that is a good thing. But asking Disney to look at their policies is one thing, because it can result in lives being saved. Pointing fingers at Chase's parents doesn't help anyone. It's very very unlikely that Chase will slip away from his parents and fall into a pool again, so there's no reason to point fingers, other than to make oneself feel better at their expense, which is a very slimy thing to do.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:11 PM   #276
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Putting on my legal cap for a moment -- Disney has a legal obligation to act in a reasonable manner to keep passengers safe. Notice I didn't say they had to guarantee the safety of their passengers, the law only expects what is "reasonable." In the aftermath of a terrible accident it is appropriate to examine Disney's policies and practices to determine if any rules were violated and to see if procedures should be altered to improve safety at the pool. I see nothing wrong with having a discussion on the topic.


Now, as a mom, my reaction is entirely different. All I want to do is hug Chase's parents and tell them how sorry I am that this happened and how I wish the best for that poor child.

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Old 04-14-2013, 10:12 PM   #277
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Have not heard any news about Chase in a while - have been out of touch. Does anyone know how he is doing?
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:31 PM   #278
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Parents are posting updates on Facebook and Caring bridge. They brought him home to Minnesota, to a hospital near their house. The. MRI results were not good but the family remains hopeful.

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Old 04-15-2013, 08:38 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by donaldlovesdaisy View Post
Wow cruise ship pools sound like a complete nightmare!!! Makes sense how this little guy could get separated from his family. What a tragic accident and I really hope he recovers from this.


Having been a lifeguard at WDW and seeing first hand how seriously they took water safety at their resorts I can't imagine what good reasons they have for not doing the same on their cruise ships.
I really don't know how they can make them safer, because you have a couple/few thousand people onboard, and 1 or 2 tiny pools. For any cruise I've been on (except Celebrity), it was complete and total chaos anytime the weather was nice. The cruise ships simply don't monitor the pools, or if they do, they allow jumping in from the sides, throwing people inside the pool, really any horseplay you can imagine. I've never seen the pool behavior anywhere else that I've seen on cruise ships. I really can't believe there aren't more incidents.

And as for Disney's water safety, I have to say, as much as I love Disney, I've never been thrilled w/ their water safety awareness. At every Disney pool I've been to, the lifeguards all sit the entire time, all wear sunglasses, and many seem to be unaware of happenings in the pool. On more than a few occasions, I've felt like the lifeguards were sleeping behind those sunglasses. There would be things happening in the pool or at the bottom of the slide and the lifeguard would be looking out over the pool (again, with the sunglasses, so you can't tell where they're really looking), and be non-responsive. They don't seem to have any rules like they have to get up every x-amount of minutes and walk around the pool, etc. Anything to keep them awake would help I think.

I've had this discussion before here, so to be clear, I'm not talking about the waterparks at Disney, just the resort pools. I was told the waterparks are a whole different story, and that could be the case.

Anyway, it's not just Disney w/ the ship pools and potential problems.

I think the cruiseships would be better off with no 'real' pools, because there's just too many people in a small space. Maybe more water play areas, maybe a very shallow area in place a of pool where there's water to cool off, but too shallow for swimming (like a foot or less deep). Maybe a lap pool in the gym for serious swimmers (although serious swimmers can't really do laps in the regular ship pool anyway). Because really, it's 90% kids in the pool, and maybe adults who have to be in there w/ their little kids. If you had other waterplay options for the kids, they'd be just as happy. The parents would probably be happy too, not having to worry about them in a crazy pool environment. Maybe a few more hot tubs. They're always packed to the max anyway, people seem to enjoy them a lot.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:28 AM   #280
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:03 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey'snewestfan View Post
If you can't see the moral difference between criticizing grieving parents at the worst point in their lives, and criticizing a corporation, I don't think I can help you. Despite how much people here love Disney, Disney is an unfeeling, amoral entity. Criticizing Disney's corporate policies is not the same as insulting someone's grandma.

Yes, accidents happen and this was an accident. Is it OK, after an accident to look at our own practices, and at those of institutions to try and avoid a repeat. Scientists looked at years of car crash data before designing rear facing baby seats. That doesn't mean that infants who died in car crashes before the seats were used didn't die in "accidents".

In this case, I can imagine that Chase's parents are as motivated as anyone to see that no one else goes through what they're going through. That might involve people changing their individual behavior, and it might involve Disney changing it's corporate behavior. Disney might decide that there are some simple changes they can make that will reduce the likelihood of a repeat, and that is a good thing. But asking Disney to look at their policies is one thing, because it can result in lives being saved. Pointing fingers at Chase's parents doesn't help anyone. It's very very unlikely that Chase will slip away from his parents and fall into a pool again, so there's no reason to point fingers, other than to make oneself feel better at their expense, which is a very slimy thing to do.
The only ones with a moral obligation to keep kids safe while on a vacation, or cruise, etc are the parents. Its not wrong to ask parents to change their "policies" in cases like this before asking WDW too. So by saying its was just an accident and absolving the parents of any responsibility in the accident, one has to say the same about WDW (corp or not).
Yes, what happened was a tragic accident. But that doesn't change the fact that had Chases parents done things differently, it was very preventable. If WDW changes things, it could have been prevented as well.
And I'm sorry but pointing out facts isn't insulting, it is what it is.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:04 AM   #282
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I rarely post here anymore, but after reading this thread and seeing your posts, which imo, lack not only sensitivity and compassion, but a sense of decency as well. I have found in my life that the universe sometimes has a way of making things even and dispensing a form of justice out to those who have earned it through their cruel words and actions. It doesn't happen all the time or often enough, but it does happen. I'm a firm believer in you get back in what you give out.

To me, it speaks volumes to the character of a person, when they can't find find even the smallest amount of compassion in times like this of terrible tragedy. I really don't understand why you chose to go the route you have taken in this thread, but I do sincerely and honestly wish you this. One day if a terrible crisis hits you and you find yourself in despair like this poor family this thread is about, that people treat you with compassion and sympathy, unlike what you have shown here.

Food for thought.

I did not see LisaR post anything that warrants this. I think this is just as rude as those bashing Chase's parents. It sound like you are wishing harm on LisaR???

I feel for Chase's parents I really do, and I do NOT think a discussion should be had on their FB page but here on a more public forum thanyes I think it can be discussed. If this was something the parents' should have been more mindful themseleves, or was this bc they thought Uncle Joe was watching him etc, or is Disney to blame and maybe they should be reviewing their policies.


As facts have come out we are finding that this may have been a true accident but you just never know. Flying Dumbo just posted about 3 kids unattended at a resort pool. Now if heaven forbid something happen to those 3 kids, it would have been the parents fault for not coming to the pool area at all.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:18 AM   #283
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At every Disney pool I've been to, the lifeguards all sit the entire time, all wear sunglasses, and many seem to be unaware of happenings in the pool.
I don't question your account by any means, but my admittedly limited experience of lifeguard behaviour at resort pools is very different. I'm basing this on only two trips to CBR, but I remember the lifeguards at the theme pool being always on their feet, pacing the edge of the pool, constantly scanning. As for the sunglasses, the lenses are probably polarized to reduce glare and give them clearer vision into the water. And of course they need to protect their eyes from that sun. I was very impressed by the lifeguards I've encountered at WDW.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:27 AM   #284
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I really don't know how they can make them safer, because you have a couple/few thousand people onboard, and 1 or 2 tiny pools. For any cruise I've been on (except Celebrity), it was complete and total chaos anytime the weather was nice. The cruise ships simply don't monitor the pools, or if they do, they allow jumping in from the sides, throwing people inside the pool, really any horseplay you can imagine. I've never seen the pool behavior anywhere else that I've seen on cruise ships. I really can't believe there aren't more incidents.

And as for Disney's water safety, I have to say, as much as I love Disney, I've never been thrilled w/ their water safety awareness. At every Disney pool I've been to, the lifeguards all sit the entire time, all wear sunglasses, and many seem to be unaware of happenings in the pool. On more than a few occasions, I've felt like the lifeguards were sleeping behind those sunglasses. There would be things happening in the pool or at the bottom of the slide and the lifeguard would be looking out over the pool (again, with the sunglasses, so you can't tell where they're really looking), and be non-responsive. They don't seem to have any rules like they have to get up every x-amount of minutes and walk around the pool, etc. Anything to keep them awake would help I think.
I've had this discussion before here, so to be clear, I'm not talking about the waterparks at Disney, just the resort pools. I was told the waterparks are a whole different story, and that could be the case.

Anyway, it's not just Disney w/ the ship pools and potential problems.

I think the cruiseships would be better off with no 'real' pools, because there's just too many people in a small space. Maybe more water play areas, maybe a very shallow area in place a of pool where there's water to cool off, but too shallow for swimming (like a foot or less deep). Maybe a lap pool in the gym for serious swimmers (although serious swimmers can't really do laps in the regular ship pool anyway). Because really, it's 90% kids in the pool, and maybe adults who have to be in there w/ their little kids. If you had other waterplay options for the kids, they'd be just as happy. The parents would probably be happy too, not having to worry about them in a crazy pool environment. Maybe a few more hot tubs. They're always packed to the max anyway, people seem to enjoy them a lot.
I have not experienced this at WDW pools. I saw a drill once at the Boardwalk Luna Pool that was amazing. The lifeguards had no idea. They all had been watching the pool, changing stations. Then all of a sudden one of the lifeguards jumps, and then another, and then a third went to grab a board etc. It was very well done. We were all worried thinking it was real, and the pool was crowded but not overly so.

Afterwards they made an announcement that it was just a drill and one of the CM lifeguards walking by said it is just like a fire drill you never know when one is going to be called.

I also thought the lifeguards at the Beach Club were very on top of things.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:30 AM   #285
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I don't question your account by any means, but my admittedly limited experience of lifeguard behaviour at resort pools is very different. I'm basing this on only two trips to CBR, but I remember the lifeguards at the theme pool being always on their feet, pacing the edge of the pool, constantly scanning. As for the sunglasses, the lenses are probably polarized to reduce glare and give them clearer vision into the water. And of course they need to protect their eyes from that sun. I was very impressed by the lifeguards I've encountered at WDW.
As was I at the Grand Californian Hotel. The lifeguards were constantly monitoring the water and doing scans of all areas. They switched positions often and scanned the pool upon switches. They were even tested by supervisors who strolled up and quietly slipped something into the pool. Within a split second a test rescue happened.
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