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Old 04-10-2013, 11:21 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Disco View Post
There's the original subject! I was shocked to hear the Zebras were causing trouble. I mean WTH, they built a segregated area just for them! Maybe this whole thread is bupkis.
Everyone owes everyone an apology except to the OP (it’s all their fault for spreading such vicious rumors).
I accept full responsibility.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:58 AM   #92
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We saw the zebras on the KS on Tuesday. They were still there.
The zebras are still there but they have been moved back to their original location. Basically the OP is right, the zebras were tearing into one another and once it started many would gang up on the wounded animal.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:29 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
Seriously, does anyone around here need to be reminded that Disney is publicly traded?But, if you can prove to me that long term quality thinking couldn't be just as profitable as the current short term dollar at every turn philosophy does, then it'll be a discussion.

Further, No one thinks Universl can "catch" Disney. Size alone precludes that. It doesn't mean they can't do "it" better though. Regardless, the Disney vs. Universal thought process is flawed because anything either does positively, for whatever reason, is good for us, the guests.

It is the people with the us vs them philosophy who are the real letdown as they have been duped to believe they are part of the "Disney them" somehow. Disney does PR best of all it seems.

The biggest problem for Universl and for those of us who prefer quality money grubbing over Walmart is the fanboy attitude you alluded to. There are still so many gullible people who give current Disney credit for what old Disney put in motion. They will buy any garbage, attend any lame celebration, watch terrible sequels, defend the dining fiasco, whatever, in short, cheerlead for this huge multinational conglomerate that just like every other big company, has no soul.

The sad thing is that as a privately held company it actually did seem they had a soul.
~The problem I have with your post, is that it seems to reflect society as whole -- and you've just taken a much larger issue and simply slapped Disney's name on it, instead of our economy. This is why your posts stick out like a sore thumb -- you're not wrong but you're not entirely right, either. Disney is doing what most every company has been doing since the 80's. As the standard of living continues to elevate the gap of what is accessible between rich and poor has diminished by a substantial margin. This post also concerns me because you keep referring to "they" as if you are somehow excluded from this group -- when in truth you are not, you are very much a part of "them" and you continue to enable the "problems" you complain about. In reference to the theme parks Disney may have lost its soul -- I won't argue that -- but, you are a cheerleader just like the rest of us -- accept that. I hope you still like me, lol.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:00 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
See, you're just cheerleading. What discussion can be had when you just badmouth universal while lumping all negative Disney discussion as being made by people who don't understand budgets and monetary constraints?

Stating that Universal's demographic is thrill seeking teen boys and men is simply wrong and does stating that Disney could "put universal to shame" really make sense? Why? Because all of those imagineers who moved to universal suddenly forgot how to be imaginative?
~I missed this one -- but by the same token, you are also cheerleading, you are one of "them" -- simply badmouthing Disney is not enough to excuse your actions -- realize that every time you renew your AP and continue to patronize Disney, that you are in fact a cheerleader. I don't think it's fair to define others as "gullible people -- who buy any garbage," while you enjoy the parks and all there is to offer. What exactly makes you different from "them?"



~You praise Universal -- I do, too. But, I also acknowledge they're a corporation and their new hotel looks just like a deluxe version of Pop Century. Now, all Universal needs is a Hogwarts Express bus to facilitate transport to and from the airport -- ME vs HE.



~Disney, on the other hand is building a brand new Four Seasons & Grand Floridian DVC.

~So, define that....

~I'm not picking on you because there is so much that I can identify with -- but really, I believe you will start to feel better by acknowledging & accepting some of the responsibility regarding the role you've played in relation to your grievances, it's too simplistic to point the finger at "others" and attempt to portray the complexity a much larger scale issue as just a "Disney" thing.

~But yeah, I hope you still like me & all that other stuff too, lol.
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:28 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post


~Disney, on the other hand is building a brand new Four Seasons & Grand Floridian DVC.

[/COLOR]

FWIW... Disney isn't building the Four Seasons. They actually removed the property from the rest of the part, and offloaded it to the investors building the Four Seasons. It's on the same plot that the Golden Oaks subdivision is being built on.

Honestly... Between the Waldorf and the Four Seasons, Disney is going to have some TRUE deluxe level accommodations located "on property", so it'll be interesting to see how they are able to justify charging more for their Deluxe hotels for a lower level of service and amenities.


I also hate seeing DVC builds being used as any sort of "see! Disney is Investing" arguement. IMHO, DVC has somehow devolved from a pretty nice idea and compliment when it started as a single resort (The Disney Vacation Club...later renamed Old Key West)... into what could almost be seen as a cancer/parasite.

If Disney has been treating the WDW resort as it's ATM.... then DVC could be considering it's money printing press. They keep building more DVC resorts and space so they can turn around and "sell" it for a huge markup. If you look at the mess with Aulani and the complaints from BLT, they have even been guilty with the latest resorts of doing things on the cheap because "the people don't know any better and will pay for anything". [although admittedly... the combination of those 2 screwups caused the head of DVC to get booted]. To add to my arguement... If you look at the latest DVC trend, They add a new wing or section to an existing hotel for DVC, but they aren't really adding any amenaties to the resort to help absorb the additional capacity of the resort. For example.... BLT removed an existing wing of a Deluxe Level resort. They did give it a small pool, but they use the Monorail as a selling point but aren't doing anything to contribute to the capacity to move those guests from the Contemporary to the other parks. [thankfully with the walking path to the MK, the full impact of this decision is muted].

With the GF DVC, they are adding a whole new wing to the existing Deluxe level monorail resort. This is going to add a lot of potential guests to the resort property who need to get around the property. Once again, We are not seeing any additional food service or major amenties added to the resort to help absorb these guests, and transportation again is taking a big hit without any added capacity. With no walking path, all those DVC guests will be funneled to the existing monorail and watercraft transportation to the MK, however DVC is not contributing ANYTHING to the resort to help fund additional Monorail capacity or improvement, or new watercraft to help guests move to the MK.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:19 PM   #96
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TooTall has already said it...

but disney is in way building a four seasons...nor would they have the stomach to do so.

Disney hotels are more like movie sets (aka "staged story") than they are on "luxury"...because they charge and arm and a leg and "categorize" them doesn't make them anywhere close to world class in terms of construction and the service/staff is laughable in comparison. And this is not opinion...i have real experience specifically in terms of the "grand" floridian. Disney doesn't really put in the kind of materials and features that a Four Seasons must have...because their clientele doesn't put up with imitation stuff.

To address Tootall "competition" point...they sold the land to four seasons to "get rid" of the high end clientele. That was the point. Now their "deluxes" can continue as they have been...really overpriced disney places for the service level.

At four seasons - the concierge is not restricted from providing service that is outside the property lines of WDW (or are unable to get a table at a restaurant inside their own hotel based on "centralized reservations")...and the check-in agents don't make $7.50 an hour and have FOUR DAYS worth of training...

guess which hotels do that?

Speaking of Grand Floridian...the construction of DVC there is - in my eyes - disney's way of "throwing in the towel" on the "luxury hotel" concept. indeed - without the Four Seasons...they probably would have had to wait to build dvc. (that's a complicated scenario...for another day). They need to have an on-site location that caters to the filthy rich...errr...i mean "job creators" and the GF just doesn't cut it.

Don't expect anything earth shattering when the GF DVC opens either. it will be "nice" but basically the same kinda look and features as all DVC. It will just be white and red fiberglass on the outside.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post

I also hate seeing DVC builds being used as any sort of "see! Disney is Investing" arguement. IMHO, DVC has somehow devolved from a pretty nice idea and compliment when it started as a single resort (The Disney Vacation Club...later renamed Old Key West)... into what could almost be seen as a cancer/parasite.
Agree...DVC construction can't be credited to TWDC as "investment". I just did the numbers last week and they have reasonable collected close to a BILLION dollars in upfront fees to finance the construction. You can't really be given credit for building when daddy's paying the bill.

But as to your point about a "cancer"...it might be. it gives them what they want and give the owner what they want. In star trek terms...its a "trill".

I'm staying at BLT for 8 nights next month...if i divide it out and figure out a little algorithm to estimate my real costs for that stay based on my 2005 purchase price...and then compare it to rack...all i can think of to say to everyone not in DVC is "HHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!!! "

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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
If Disney has been treating the WDW resort as it's ATM.... then DVC could be considering it's money printing press. They keep building more DVC resorts and space so they can turn around and "sell" it for a huge markup. If you look at the mess with Aulani and the complaints from BLT, they have even been guilty with the latest resorts of doing things on the cheap because "the people don't know any better and will pay for anything". [although admittedly... the combination of those 2 screwups caused the head of DVC to get booted]. To add to my arguement... If you look at the latest DVC trend, They add a new wing or section to an existing hotel for DVC, but they aren't really adding any amenaties to the resort to help absorb the additional capacity of the resort. For example.... BLT removed an existing wing of a Deluxe Level resort. They did give it a small pool, but they use the Monorail as a selling point but aren't doing anything to contribute to the capacity to move those guests from the Contemporary to the other parks. [thankfully with the walking path to the MK, the full impact of this decision is muted].
SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH!

You're giving away the secret...and if you keep doing that...anyone who actually switches their brain on when talking about Disney (instead of hearts in their eyes like a Pepe Le Pew cartoon ) might catch on.

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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
With the GF DVC, they are adding a whole new wing to the existing Deluxe level monorail resort. This is going to add a lot of potential guests to the resort property who need to get around the property. Once again, We are not seeing any additional food service or major amenties added to the resort to help absorb these guests, and transportation again is taking a big hit without any added capacity. With no walking path, all those DVC guests will be funneled to the existing monorail and watercraft transportation to the MK, however DVC is not contributing ANYTHING to the resort to help fund additional Monorail capacity or improvement, or new watercraft to help guests move to the MK.
The bold: that's the point.
The italics: they don't care.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:24 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by baler31 View Post
The zebras are still there but they have been moved back to their original location. Basically the OP is right, the zebras were tearing into one another and once it started many would gang up on the wounded animal.
Good news! I mean, that the zebras are still there. Too bad their idea for mixing them in with the buses near the end of the ride didn't work out, but I'm not inclined to be disappointed or angry at Disney management over this.

We got a couple of dogs recently and DW did her homework by watching a couple of seasons of the Cesar Milan dog training series. The biggest lesson that I got out of watching some of these shows is that animals are first of all and primarily ... animals. They think differently and act differently from humans and if we try too hard to treat them like "furry friends" it can cause problems. He said that we tend to identify our dog first by it's name, then as a breed, then as a dog and finally as an animal. But the dog's mental priorities are exactly opposite. He's an animal first, a dog, a breed, and least important of all to the dog (in the scheme of things) is the name you gave him, the little coat you want him to wear, etc. It doesn't mean that they won't answer to their name and want to cuddle with you, but overall the dog has bigger priorities that you have to acknowledge and accommodate.

I think that Disney just realized that it had to accommodate first of all the essential animal/species behavior of zebras and put aside their dreams of using them as a kind of close-up, cute and cuddly ride finale.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:52 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
FWIW... Disney isn't building the Four Seasons. They actually removed the property from the rest of the part, and offloaded it to the investors building the Four Seasons. It's on the same plot that the Golden Oaks subdivision is being built on.

Honestly... Between the Waldorf and the Four Seasons, Disney is going to have some TRUE deluxe level accommodations located "on property", so it'll be interesting to see how they are able to justify charging more for their Deluxe hotels for a lower level of service and amenities.
~I know, I'm hoping this will be just like the Swan & Dolphin arrangement or like the Loews & Hard Rock hotels featured at Universal -- and not like the Downtown Disney Hilton set up. I agree this should be "true" deluxe & I really hope this Four Season's doesn't succumb to Disney's bad ways, lol.

Quote:
I also hate seeing DVC builds being used as any sort of "see! Disney is Investing" arguement. IMHO, DVC has somehow devolved from a pretty nice idea and compliment when it started as a single resort (The Disney Vacation Club...later renamed Old Key West)... into what could almost be seen as a cancer/parasite.

If Disney has been treating the WDW resort as it's ATM.... then DVC could be considering it's money printing press. They keep building more DVC resorts and space so they can turn around and "sell" it for a huge markup. If you look at the mess with Aulani and the complaints from BLT, they have even been guilty with the latest resorts of doing things on the cheap because "the people don't know any better and will pay for anything". [although admittedly... the combination of those 2 screwups caused the head of DVC to get booted]. To add to my arguement... If you look at the latest DVC trend, They add a new wing or section to an existing hotel for DVC, but they aren't really adding any amenaties to the resort to help absorb the additional capacity of the resort. For example.... BLT removed an existing wing of a Deluxe Level resort. They did give it a small pool, but they use the Monorail as a selling point but aren't doing anything to contribute to the capacity to move those guests from the Contemporary to the other parks. [thankfully with the walking path to the MK, the full impact of this decision is muted].

With the GF DVC, they are adding a whole new wing to the existing Deluxe level monorail resort. This is going to add a lot of potential guests to the resort property who need to get around the property. Once again, We are not seeing any additional food service or major amenties added to the resort to help absorb these guests, and transportation again is taking a big hit without any added capacity. With no walking path, all those DVC guests will be funneled to the existing monorail and watercraft transportation to the MK, however DVC is not contributing ANYTHING to the resort to help fund additional Monorail capacity or improvement, or new watercraft to help guests move to the MK.
~Okay, this is my fault. The message I was hoping to convey is not one of how Disney is "investing" because I don't believe that for one second -- just based on what I've read here and my personal experience with a timeshare "tour" I took years ago in Vegas, I can't see myself ever investing in a timeshare, it's just too limiting for my tastes. I should have placed more emphasis on the "Grand Floridian" aspect and the demographic Disney is seeking to target with this addition. The pirate's argument was that Disney only wants to cater to the people of Walmart, and I don't know if that's entirely accurate with the addition of a New Four Seasons, Grand Floridian DVC and possible Poly DVC.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:29 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~I know, I'm hoping this will be just like the Swan & Dolphin arrangement or like the Loews & Hard Rock hotels featured at Universal -- and not like the Downtown Disney Hilton set up. I agree this should be "true" deluxe & I really hope this Four Season's doesn't succumb to Disney's bad ways, lol.
Not likely..... Just because of the history of those Disney deals.

When the parks first opened in 1971, There wasn't a lot of hotel rooms in the area for people coming into Central Florida to visit the parks. Disney leased out the land for the hotels on Hotel Blvd with the understanding that at time the Poly, Contemporary, and Disney Inn wouldn't meet the demand for beds at the park, and they weren't in a place or have the desire to build more hotel rooms themselves.


The Swan/Dolphin story is a little different, and there is some conflicting information/stories out there when it comes to the details. But in essense, it's part of the holdover from the earlier Disney thought process of their not wanting to be in the hotel business (ala, hotel Blvd.).

The 2 most popular stories I've heard are that a developer/contractor involved in the EPCOT construction, as part of their deal/compensation also received the ability to build hotels on Disney property...... OR.... As part of the Original deal that brought us the hotels on hotel BLVD, The developer involved in those hotels believed they had the exclusive rights to further Disney hotels.

In either version, It was Eisner's coming to the company in the mid 80's which ended up changing things on the hotel front. Basically.... He saw all the money the company was losing by not being more involved in lodging the visitors to the resort, and wanted to become much more involved in becoming a one-stop-shop [the precurser to the Disney Decade]. I've also read where he wanted to build a convention hotel to attract non-theme park guests to the resort during the offpeak times (and that this convention part was what prompted the disagreement between Disney and the Developer).

Ultimately, As either part of the previous Grandfathered deal prior to a buy-out [allowing Disney to develop their own onsite hotels].... Or a settlement with the developer [allowing him to build/own 2 hotels in a prime location in the center of the property in exchange for reliquishing the rights to allow Disney to build/control their own hotels onsite]... The Swan and Dolphin came to be. Disney still owns the property, but the hotels are owned independantly and have a 99yr lease of the property they sit upon.

You need to remember, the Swan/Dolphin are some of the oldest properties onsite.... With only the Poly, Contemporary, Shade of Green (The Disney Inn/The Golf Resort), and Ft. Wilderness predating them. I believe the Grand Floridian opened shortly after them, although GF may have been opened around the same time or shortly before. I remember GF was late 80s, but i'm bit fuzzy off the top of my head on the exact timeframe of the hotel openings.



For Universal/Lowes, It's much closer to the original Hotel Blvd deal. When Universal expanded from a single park to the 2 parks, citywalk, and onsite hotels in the late 90's, They were not interested in also getting into the hotel business. So their onsite hotels were built from scratch in a deal with the outside company. It's a partnership that both companies actively partipate in and benefit from.


The Four Seasons is like none of these previous deals. Disney sold off the land so the Four Seasons can build their own hotel. For all intents and purposes, the partnership between the Four Seasons and Disney is no deeper than Disney's existing VIP sales/tour channels. There might be a few extra "perks" which the Four Seasons guests may get compared to other offsite location guests ( such as emh or room package delivery), But this would be because the Four Seasons would be paying Disney large amounts of $$$ on a regular basis to secure these deals. Not because they are considered a Disney resort guest.


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Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~Okay, this is my fault. The message I was hoping to convey is not one of how Disney is "investing" because I don't believe that for one second -- just based on what I've read here and my personal experience with a timeshare "tour" I took years ago in Vegas, I can't see myself ever investing in a timeshare, it's just too limiting for my tastes. I should have placed more emphasis on the "Grand Floridian" aspect and the demographic Disney is seeking to target with this addition. The pirate's argument was that Disney only wants to cater to the people of Walmart, and I don't know if that's entirely accurate with the addition of a New Four Seasons, Grand Floridian DVC and possible Poly DVC.
But Disney isn't really catering to the affluent "sophisticated" type that the Four Seasons is servicing. The four Seasons are the ones catering to them and their needs and desires. Those people just want to experience Disney, just like everyone else.

With the GF and Poly DVC.... I'm also not entirely sure you can say they are successfully catering outside of the "people of Walmart". they are both "more of the same" when it comes to what they are offering.... DVC membership. Compared to rack rates, DVC is a pretty good deal.....think of it as the Sam's Club version..... You are still dealing with Walmart, but you are buying the same items you get with Walmart, only in bulk. More Expensive than the cheaper walmart stuff.... put a cheaper "per unit" cost.

Even then... DVC is starting to potentially price itself out of being able to get new retail sales using their existing tactics to all but the ignorant masses (which... well... people of walmart . com . ).
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:29 PM   #101
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Not likely..... Just because of the history of those Disney deals.

When the parks first opened in 1971, There wasn't a lot of hotel rooms in the area for people coming into Central Florida to visit the parks. Disney leased out the land for the hotels on Hotel Blvd with the understanding that at time the Poly, Contemporary, and Disney Inn wouldn't meet the demand for beds at the park, and they weren't in a place or have the desire to build more hotel rooms themselves.


The Swan/Dolphin story is a little different, and there is some conflicting information/stories out there when it comes to the details. But in essense, it's part of the holdover from the earlier Disney thought process of their not wanting to be in the hotel business (ala, hotel Blvd.).

The 2 most popular stories I've heard are that a developer/contractor involved in the EPCOT construction, as part of their deal/compensation also received the ability to build hotels on Disney property...... OR.... As part of the Original deal that brought us the hotels on hotel BLVD, The developer involved in those hotels believed they had the exclusive rights to further Disney hotels.

In either version, It was Eisner's coming to the company in the mid 80's which ended up changing things on the hotel front. Basically.... He saw all the money the company was losing by not being more involved in lodging the visitors to the resort, and wanted to become much more involved in becoming a one-stop-shop [the precurser to the Disney Decade]. I've also read where he wanted to build a convention hotel to attract non-theme park guests to the resort during the offpeak times (and that this convention part was what prompted the disagreement between Disney and the Developer).

Ultimately, As either part of the previous Grandfathered deal prior to a buy-out [allowing Disney to develop their own onsite hotels].... Or a settlement with the developer [allowing him to build/own 2 hotels in a prime location in the center of the property in exchange for reliquishing the rights to allow Disney to build/control their own hotels onsite]... The Swan and Dolphin came to be. Disney still owns the property, but the hotels are owned independantly and have a 99yr lease of the property they sit upon.

You need to remember, the Swan/Dolphin are some of the oldest properties onsite.... With only the Poly, Contemporary, Shade of Green (The Disney Inn/The Golf Resort), and Ft. Wilderness predating them. I believe the Grand Floridian opened shortly after them, although GF may have been opened around the same time or shortly before. I remember GF was late 80s, but i'm bit fuzzy off the top of my head on the exact timeframe of the hotel openings.



For Universal/Lowes, It's much closer to the original Hotel Blvd deal. When Universal expanded from a single park to the 2 parks, citywalk, and onsite hotels in the late 90's, They were not interested in also getting into the hotel business. So their onsite hotels were built from scratch in a deal with the outside company. It's a partnership that both companies actively partipate in and benefit from.


The Four Seasons is like none of these previous deals. Disney sold off the land so the Four Seasons can build their own hotel. For all intents and purposes, the partnership between the Four Seasons and Disney is no deeper than Disney's existing VIP sales/tour channels. There might be a few extra "perks" which the Four Seasons guests may get compared to other offsite location guests ( such as emh or room package delivery), But this would be because the Four Seasons would be paying Disney large amounts of $$$ on a regular basis to secure these deals. Not because they are considered a Disney resort guest.




But Disney isn't really catering to the affluent "sophisticated" type that the Four Seasons is servicing. The four Seasons are the ones catering to them and their needs and desires. Those people just want to experience Disney, just like everyone else.

With the GF and Poly DVC.... I'm also not entirely sure you can say they are successfully catering outside of the "people of Walmart". they are both "more of the same" when it comes to what they are offering.... DVC membership. Compared to rack rates, DVC is a pretty good deal.....think of it as the Sam's Club version..... You are still dealing with Walmart, but you are buying the same items you get with Walmart, only in bulk. More Expensive than the cheaper walmart stuff.... put a cheaper "per unit" cost.

Even then... DVC is starting to potentially price itself out of being able to get new retail sales using their existing tactics to all but the ignorant masses (which... well... people of walmart . com . ).
We stayed at GF in 1988 shortly after it opened. Swan/Dolphin opened in the summer of 1990.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:38 PM   #102
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We stayed at GF in 1988 shortly after it opened. Swan/Dolphin opened in the summer of 1990.
The Swan opened in January of 1990 - Dolphin followed in July. GF opened in July of 1988.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:56 PM   #103
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caribbean also pre-dates the swan and dolphin...though from accounts eisner really thought the arrangement of the swan and dolphin would be the "wave of the future"

disney just didn't find the arrangement palatable once it was in place.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:08 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTooTall View Post
Not likely..... Just because of the history of those Disney deals.

When the parks first opened in 1971, There wasn't a lot of hotel rooms in the area for people coming into Central Florida to visit the parks. Disney leased out the land for the hotels on Hotel Blvd with the understanding that at time the Poly, Contemporary, and Disney Inn wouldn't meet the demand for beds at the park, and they weren't in a place or have the desire to build more hotel rooms themselves.


The Swan/Dolphin story is a little different, and there is some conflicting information/stories out there when it comes to the details. But in essense, it's part of the holdover from the earlier Disney thought process of their not wanting to be in the hotel business (ala, hotel Blvd.).

The 2 most popular stories I've heard are that a developer/contractor involved in the EPCOT construction, as part of their deal/compensation also received the ability to build hotels on Disney property...... OR.... As part of the Original deal that brought us the hotels on hotel BLVD, The developer involved in those hotels believed they had the exclusive rights to further Disney hotels.

In either version, It was Eisner's coming to the company in the mid 80's which ended up changing things on the hotel front. Basically.... He saw all the money the company was losing by not being more involved in lodging the visitors to the resort, and wanted to become much more involved in becoming a one-stop-shop [the precurser to the Disney Decade]. I've also read where he wanted to build a convention hotel to attract non-theme park guests to the resort during the offpeak times (and that this convention part was what prompted the disagreement between Disney and the Developer).

Ultimately, As either part of the previous Grandfathered deal prior to a buy-out [allowing Disney to develop their own onsite hotels].... Or a settlement with the developer [allowing him to build/own 2 hotels in a prime location in the center of the property in exchange for reliquishing the rights to allow Disney to build/control their own hotels onsite]... The Swan and Dolphin came to be. Disney still owns the property, but the hotels are owned independantly and have a 99yr lease of the property they sit upon.

You need to remember, the Swan/Dolphin are some of the oldest properties onsite.... With only the Poly, Contemporary, Shade of Green (The Disney Inn/The Golf Resort), and Ft. Wilderness predating them. I believe the Grand Floridian opened shortly after them, although GF may have been opened around the same time or shortly before. I remember GF was late 80s, but i'm bit fuzzy off the top of my head on the exact timeframe of the hotel openings.



For Universal/Lowes, It's much closer to the original Hotel Blvd deal. When Universal expanded from a single park to the 2 parks, citywalk, and onsite hotels in the late 90's, They were not interested in also getting into the hotel business. So their onsite hotels were built from scratch in a deal with the outside company. It's a partnership that both companies actively partipate in and benefit from.


The Four Seasons is like none of these previous deals. Disney sold off the land so the Four Seasons can build their own hotel. For all intents and purposes, the partnership between the Four Seasons and Disney is no deeper than Disney's existing VIP sales/tour channels. There might be a few extra "perks" which the Four Seasons guests may get compared to other offsite location guests ( such as emh or room package delivery), But this would be because the Four Seasons would be paying Disney large amounts of $$$ on a regular basis to secure these deals. Not because they are considered a Disney resort guest.




But Disney isn't really catering to the affluent "sophisticated" type that the Four Seasons is servicing. The four Seasons are the ones catering to them and their needs and desires. Those people just want to experience Disney, just like everyone else.

With the GF and Poly DVC.... I'm also not entirely sure you can say they are successfully catering outside of the "people of Walmart". they are both "more of the same" when it comes to what they are offering.... DVC membership. Compared to rack rates, DVC is a pretty good deal.....think of it as the Sam's Club version..... You are still dealing with Walmart, but you are buying the same items you get with Walmart, only in bulk. More Expensive than the cheaper walmart stuff.... put a cheaper "per unit" cost.

Even then... DVC is starting to potentially price itself out of being able to get new retail sales using their existing tactics to all but the ignorant masses (which... well... people of walmart . com .
).
~Wow! DCTooTall, your post is amazing, it just oozes with intellect! I appreciate you sharing the history regarding the development of the Swan & Dolphin, Four Seasons and other projects -- it's very interesting. I kind of have mixed feelings about the Four Seasons -- I was looking forward to Disney's Four Seasons instead of Four Seasons that happens to be at Disney. Based on the agreement, I don't think the Four Seasons will participate in Magical Express, which I just adore! I never have to deal with luggage again once I board the plane, it's priceless, lol. I'm also concerned about EMH, I'll manage without ME but no EMH could be a deal breaker. We'll see.

~I am not familiar with DVC, at all. I don't understand the whole "points" thing. But, regarding your assessment of GF DVC and the rumored Poly DVC, if I'm grasping the gist of this correctly -- it appears that you are in agreement with the pirate. Disney is marketing their idea of deluxe accommodations in a wholesale value package that can be acquired simply through installments or a structured payment plan -- by your accounts this will appeal to the masses who would not otherwise be able to afford such accommodations. Gosh, I really hadn't thought of it, in that way. But, after having read this, how could I not? It's definitely an eye opener for me.
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:30 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baler31 View Post
We stayed at GF in 1988 shortly after it opened. Swan/Dolphin opened in the summer of 1990.
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Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
The Swan opened in January of 1990 - Dolphin followed in July. GF opened in July of 1988.
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
caribbean also pre-dates the swan and dolphin...though from accounts eisner really thought the arrangement of the swan and dolphin would be the "wave of the future"

disney just didn't find the arrangement palatable once it was in place.
Fair enough. Again, I wasn't sure of the exact dates, but I did remember the Swalphin were some of the earliest new hotels to open during the hotel building boom of the late 80's and 90's.

GF probably got a bit of a head-start construction wise since the plot was ready'd for a hotel from the intitial MK construction [The Asian hotel].... but I could also see based off the timeframe and delays the possibility that the lawsuit story could be correct. Factor in the time from Disney deciding to build new hotels, and the lawsuit challenges, the settlement, and then the construction of the Swalphin, It becomes easy to see the 2 year difference between GF opening and the Swalphin opening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRDISNEYMD View Post
~I am not familiar with DVC, at all. I don't understand the whole "points" thing. But, regarding your assessment of GF DVC and the rumored Poly DVC, if I'm grasping the gist of this correctly -- it appears that you are in agreement with the pirate. Disney is marketing their idea of deluxe accommodations in a wholesale value package that can be acquired simply through installments or a structured payment plan -- by your accounts this will appeal to the masses who would not otherwise be able to afford such accommodations. Gosh, I really hadn't thought of it, in that way. But, after having read this, how could I not? It's definitely an eye opener for me.
The people on the DVC board could tell you in more detail, but basically, When you purchase DVC points, You are buying an allotment of points that can then be spent/redeemed [think credit card or loyalty reward type points] towards DVC Accomodations. Disney does these on a lease type deal, so after purchase, you are given an annual allotment of points until the contract expiration date some time in the future (Depends upon the DVC resort you purchase, but i think the earliest expiration is currently sometime around 2045 although I may be wrong).

On top of the initial purchase price, You also pay an annual "maintenance fee" to help maintain the resort. This fee helps cover the costs such as housekeeping, repair, power, staffing, and the replacement every so often of the room furnishings as they wear out or break. It also covers a "mangement fee" Disney charges the resort. Ultimately, this annual fee is determined by taking the annual budget of the resort and then breaking it among all the owners.

Sooooo..... The DVC Sales spiel? in a nutshell??

"Would you like to stay in a deluxe level resort? How much would that cost you? $300 a night? for a week? that would be $2100. How much would that room cost you for that same week in 10 years? or 20 years? If you do it every year? with increasing room rates? You could EASILY spend over $60,000 over those 20 years to stay in a deluxe resort here. What if I told you that there was a way you could stay in deluxe accomodations at disney for the next 30 years and only pay me $50,000 today?"

Then add in the Annual dues, the finance charges, etc etc etc. DVC can make financial sense, but it's a huge financial outlay up front, and requires some serious number crunching to determine if it's a good fit for your vacation needs. (Resale is also a much better option). If you are seriously interested in checking it out though, I'd recommend checking out the DVC forums on the DIS and things such as the "Opportunity Cost" calculations to compare the REAL costs of your DVC purchase.

[disclaimer... I don't own DVC, so I can't really give you any real numbers or information the plan..... but I do own other timeshare systems and am familiar with a lot of the basic concepts.]
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