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Old 03-23-2013, 09:48 AM   #16
beer dave
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Originally Posted by Mike2023 View Post
I don't agree with you that the majority of people don't use fastpass, but yes if you don't use fastpass you will see a decrease in wait time as an individual, but the other demographic will see an increased wait time average per attraction. Like I said in my post, you see an equalization of wait times overall.

Also the lines will not be the same length, they will be longer as more people will actually be standing in them, they will move faster though.
When there are 200 people in the stand by line and there are 20 coming in with fp, the majority of people do not have fast passes.

The stand by line and the combined stand by / fp line will be the same length.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:57 AM   #17
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I think the new system might be better for lots of people - but selfishly I don't think it will be better for ME. Typically, we use 7-9 sets of FPs on a typical day in MK. We go at slower times of year (October/November usually) and combining FPs and smart touring we will rarely wait in line more than 5 minutes (I think last trip I counted 3 times we waited longer than that in line.)

If Disney now limits me to 3 FP+s per day, even though they are including more options - it means ME and MY FAMILY are going to be waiting in line longer. Sure, the standby lines might be shorter, and that's good for everyone else that doesn't use the old FP system to their advantage, but it's not good for me.

Now, I am not the type to rant and rave about how Disney is "ruining" my experience, that's not the case at all. But I do not see this as a change for the better if they limit my total # of FPs to 3. There's a good chance if that is the case, and I have a choice between the "old" way and the "new" way come November, I may just stick with the "old" way, even though I am looking forward to the MyMagic+ system.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:19 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by skier_pete View Post
I think the new system might be better for lots of people - but selfishly I don't think it will be better for ME. Typically, we use 7-9 sets of FPs on a typical day in MK. We go at slower times of year (October/November usually) and combining FPs and smart touring we will rarely wait in line more than 5 minutes (I think last trip I counted 3 times we waited longer than that in line.)

If Disney now limits me to 3 FP+s per day, even though they are including more options - it means ME and MY FAMILY are going to be waiting in line longer. Sure, the standby lines might be shorter, and that's good for everyone else that doesn't use the old FP system to their advantage, but it's not good for me.

Now, I am not the type to rant and rave about how Disney is "ruining" my experience, that's not the case at all. But I do not see this as a change for the better if they limit my total # of FPs to 3. There's a good chance if that is the case, and I have a choice between the "old" way and the "new" way come November, I may just stick with the "old" way, even though I am looking forward to the MyMagic+ system.

Wow-- I have never used that many fp in a day-- for me 3 is probably enough. I guess our commando days are gone, being local, and DVC. At first I thought I wouldn't like the new system, since we do little planning, but as I think about how we choose which park to go to, I realize that our touring is somewhat predictable. I like the idea of not having th cross the park for fp, and after being one of the people who ignored the late fp return times in the past, am glad thet they now enforce it.

Hey and to Mike 2023-- your points are valid and I see several intersections between our logic paths-- I think I woke up today with a desire to argue.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:28 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by skier_pete View Post
I think the new system might be better for lots of people - but selfishly I don't think it will be better for ME. Typically, we use 7-9 sets of FPs on a typical day in MK. We go at slower times of year (October/November usually) and combining FPs and smart touring we will rarely wait in line more than 5 minutes (I think last trip I counted 3 times we waited longer than that in line.)

If Disney now limits me to 3 FP+s per day, even though they are including more options - it means ME and MY FAMILY are going to be waiting in line longer. Sure, the standby lines might be shorter, and that's good for everyone else that doesn't use the old FP system to their advantage, but it's not good for me.
Couple thoughts:

- With fewer FASTPASSES issued, a number of legacy FP attractions seem likely to fall in to that +/- 5 min timeframe during the slower periods you reference. Ones that come immediately to mind at MK are Buzz, Jungle Cruise...perhaps even Pooh and BTMR.

- The real "win" could prove to be experiences other than attractions. All of the ancillary experiences (Fantasmic, Illuminations, Wishes, character meets, parades) require waits of 30+ minutes even during slow seasons.

- Ultimately the real issue is how many attractions you can visit in a given day rather than how long you wait in line. Efficiently "working" the current FP system tends to require a lot of criss-crossing of the park to obtain tickets. Sure there are some logical opportunities to get a FP for Splash and then standby for BTMR, but other times you'll find yourself walking from Fantasyland to Jungle Cruise for the sole purpose of getting FP tickets.

With FP+, you completely eliminate the ticket walk. Your 3 FPs are locked-in before you even arrive at the park. Instead of running around to gather those additional 4-6 passes, you're waiting in the (hopefully) fast-moving, entertaining Standby lines.

Disney has historically invested a lot of money in its themed queue areas. And that investment is growing in many areas. Yet thanks for FASTPASS, many of the queues are barely used by the guests who would appreciate them the most--the avid fans who instead maximize FP usage.

At the end of the day, what really matters is not the number of 5+ minute waits...it's the number of attractions visited in a day and overall enjoyment of the visit. That's where FP+ has the potential to have the greatest impact.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:37 AM   #20
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The $1billion wasnt just for Fast Pass +. Its the whole My Magic + experience, which includes the Next Gen queues, and the ability to track peoples movements , be conected to their wireless devices while in the parks etc. All these things are part of making wait times shorter and more enjoyable. Its much bigger than FP+. If theres less FP's lines will get shorter. If the lines are more fun, less problems being in them. If they can tell that FL is crowded but FW isnt.....they will be able to bring out characters draw people out of line, or slow people from getting in them. They could have those characters have like a mini parade draw them out of line and into FW.

If FW gets crowed send 25% of the people there a coupon for a free ice cream at Caseys ( you know , theyll buy atleast another while they are there) send an other 25% a free fast pass for something in a less crowed area at that time. You can use this tech to do so many things.That can thinout and control crowd levels. That will do wonders for lines too.
All I hope for is that before they implement this...they FiX the wifi in the parks!! I was in MK last week and spent all day long trying to get a wifi signal to look up wait times, make dining reservations, look up stuff in the new Disney app...and it was near impossible. Only certain places had a strong wifi signal. My tmobile data was also useless. The new Disney app seems completely focused on wifi. I couldn't even look up menus on it because I couldn't connect properly to it. If they expect us to use this new system, they better make sure they have the infrastructure to support it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:05 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
- With fewer FASTPASSES issued, a number of legacy FP attractions seem likely to fall in to that +/- 5 min timeframe during the slower periods you reference. Ones that come immediately to mind at MK are Buzz, Jungle Cruise...perhaps even Pooh and BTMR. .
Possible it's true, though I seriously doubt it for JC.

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- The real "win" could prove to be experiences other than attractions. All of the ancillary experiences (Fantasmic, Illuminations, Wishes, character meets, parades) require waits of 30+ minutes even during slow seasons.
I agree with this in theory - but it depends on the area and the attraction and how they put the reserved area. If I choose to see MSEP as my FP+, so now I can show up 10 minutes before the parade instead of 90 minutes, that's wonderful. But if when I show up 10 minutes early I am still buried 5 deep behind all the other people with the reserved spot, meaning I have to get to the reserved area 60 minutes early. (This is what goes on at World of Color out in California. If you get the FP for the dining, sure you can show up last minute and have a spot - but it's not a GOOD spot.)

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Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
Ultimately the real issue is how many attractions you can visit in a given day rather than how long you wait in line. Efficiently "working" the current FP system tends to require a lot of criss-crossing of the park to obtain tickets. Sure there are some logical opportunities to get a FP for Splash and then standby for BTMR, but other times you'll find yourself walking from Fantasyland to Jungle Cruise for the sole purpose of getting FP tickets.
It does, I agree the criss-crossing is a pain - which i what I definitely LIKE about the system, being able to pick your parts - but a 10 minute walk across the park vs a 45 minute wait in line I'll still take the first choice. Plus, this is mostly NOT the case, we'll pull a FP for Jungle Cruise, then do Pirates and the Tiki Room, then go pull a BTM FP, then use JC...etc...not as much criss-crossing as you think.

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Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
With FP+, you completely eliminate the ticket walk. Your 3 FPs are locked-in before you even arrive at the park. Instead of running around to gather those additional 4-6 passes, you're waiting in the (hopefully) fast-moving, entertaining Standby lines.
Key word is *hopefully* right?

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Disney has historically invested a lot of money in its themed queue areas. And that investment is growing in many areas. Yet thanks for FASTPASS, many of the queues are barely used by the guests who would appreciate them the most--the avid fans who instead maximize FP usage.
I admit to being one of those. I've never seen the EE queue, or played the Soarin' or Space Mountain queue games. I have no regrets of that. A line is a line.

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At the end of the day, what really matters is not the number of 5+ minute waits...it's the number of attractions visited in a day and overall enjoyment of the visit. That's where FP+ has the potential to have the greatest impact.
Right - I agree with you. Except that I *hate* the waiting in line part. I don't care what you put in line to entertain me, it's still waiting in line. I hate it. And for the most part - the less time you spend waiting in line correlates with the # of attractions you see.

And we don't go commando at all, for the first 2 hours after rope drop, maybe we hit the rides pretty hard, but after that we really do take our time. But we use FPs to optimize our time.

I am not dismissing your arguments out of hand. I am gladly willing to consider the new system might be better. In fact, with the exception of MK, I think it would be. We rarely use more than 3-4 FPs at Epcot, DHS, and AK, so the only potential negative impact would be at MK, where we pile on the FP. Since that's typically only 2 days out of the trip, I might be able to risk the poorer experience at MK in exchange for the better experience overall.

For example - one thing I see this system improving is the hopping experience. Sure, you can only get your pre-book FP in one park - but I imagine that now I could go to MK in the morning for the first 3 hours until the lines build, then hop over to Epcot. I use my three FP+ options for the day on a 2 PM Soarin, a 4 PM Test Track, and a spot for Illuminations (assuming that's an option). Overall, that's a plussed experience versus the old system, where FPs made hopping worthless to me.

So - I guess I am saying I agree with your mentioned advantages, but I still see the disadvantages as well...and I don't know whether one will totally off-set the other. This is why I am taking a "wait-and-see" attitude as to whether I want to try the new system or not....since no one knows what the "official" system is going to be.

SkierPete

P.S. I also want to comment that anyone that states that "It was all better before FP even came to be" have very faulty memories. I remember our trip in early May 1997, pre FP, and we spent a LOT of time waiting in line. I remember 45 minutes for BTMRR - 90 minutes for Splash mountain and Space Mountain - and you had no other option - wait the 90 minutes or you don't ride. Are standy rides longer now? Probably - and FP lines contribute to that -but there's a good chance they are longer also because there are more people in the park than there were before FP happened. The "Slow" times of year aren't nearly as "slow" as they were 15 years ago. THAT combined with no new attractions in MK has done more to affect the length of Standby lines.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by beer dave

Hey and to Mike 2023-- your points are valid and I see several intersections between our logic paths-- I think I woke up today with a desire to argue.
Lol, that's everyday for me. Don't worry, i never take it personally.

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Old 03-23-2013, 07:53 PM   #23
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Granted I'm biased because I was a heavy visitor when fast pass was implemented and then an employee shortly thereafter...

But fast pass (my opinion) is perhaps the single best idea Disney has ever come up with to modify the parks for the better...even with notable failures (Peter pan)

Some of the comments here seem to blame fast pass for long lines...

I beg to differ...fast pass in most ways has balanced out lines and in some cases all but eliminated them. Even with some notable rides that just can't accommodate them.

But that's more to numbers given out than the system.

Still a strong proponent of fastpass

Just my 2
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:56 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
Granted I'm biased because I was a heavy visitor when fast pass was implemented and then an employee shortly thereafter...

But fast pass (my opinion) is perhaps the single best idea Disney has ever come up with to modify the parks for the better...even with notable failures (Peter pan)

Some of the comments here seem to blame fast pass for long lines...

I beg to differ...fast pass in most ways has balanced out lines and in some cases all but eliminated them. Even with some notable rides that just can't accommodate them.

But that's more to numbers given out than the system.

Still a strong proponent of fastpass

Just my 2

I could imagine fastpass being great when first implemented, and could be now again that return times are enforced.

I have been one of the people who collects fps all day to use them any time after the first return time, so I am not blaming anyone for doing that --you do what you can.

I also have been in standby lines (RnR ToT Pooh) where they have to let at least 10 to 1 fp holders in to keep the fp line down. I know I didn't have to be in the line, but I am glad that this will stop. I am not against FP at all, I guess I am for the return times, and am anxious to reserve my FP's at home.

There will be so much less cross traffic in the parks if they ever completely eliminate the kiosks.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:04 AM   #25
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I'm going to be upset if they limit it to 3 a day. And here's my reasoning for it. Right now the system lets you pull a FP and then you can get a new one either after the start of that time or 2 hours later. With that in mind we plan very well.

We get to the park right around open or before. We immediately grab FP for a ride and then ride another ride or two until our FP window is available. Then we get another FP and do the same thing. Sometimes when the FP return time is for later in the day, we have to wait two hours to grab another, but typically this system allows us to riding a good number of rides in a given period of time. The key is that we focus on one particular area instead of criss crossing the park.

When it is all said and done, in a standard day, I am not surprised if we grab 4,5,6 or more FPs throughout the day depending on how long we are at the park for.

If it is limited to only the 3 you pick before you even arrive, I know that we will be picking them for rides in the middle of the day when it is busiest versus doing what we do.

I don't think the current FP is truly broken. I think that they allow too many FP's for given rides at given times. Even with enforcing the return time, I've seen the FP lines get backed up on some rides to outside the attraction and stay that way for an extended period of time. That shouldn't happen. I understand when you get one of the groups of Brazilians of like 80 that all have FPs at the same time for Peter Pan, but there has to be a way to balance it out.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:22 AM   #26
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When I read about fast pass plus the first time I was not happy. Now that the idea has sunk in and now that I've read through many peoples opinions and view points I'm warming up to it. I'm not sure its the best idea to change it, but I'm not sure its the worst either.

I'm still concerned that because we have a larger family and stay off-site that we will only get one fast pass choice for the day.... wish for us would mean a lot more line waiting than we would do in the current system. Also, if we decide to take a last minute vacation we won't have many options as I imagine FPP will be reserved far ahead of time.

BUT I also think the current fast pass system adds a bit of stress to our Disney touring. Our family splits up a lot to get FPs and we criss-cross the park a lot. If through FPP we are able to reserve the ride (or rides if we are lucky) that we want to ride the most AND if we have fun interactive ques we may actually get more quality, fun family time together.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #27
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When I read about fast pass plus the first time I was not happy. Now that the idea has sunk in and now that I've read through many peoples opinions and view points I'm warming up to it. I'm not sure its the best idea to change it, but I'm not sure its the worst either.

I'm still concerned that because we have a larger family and stay off-site that we will only get one fast pass choice for the day.... wish for us would mean a lot more line waiting than we would do in the current system. Also, if we decide to take a last minute vacation we won't have many options as I imagine FPP will be reserved far ahead of time.

BUT I also think the current fast pass system adds a bit of stress to our Disney touring. Our family splits up a lot to get FPs and we criss-cross the park a lot. If through FPP we are able to reserve the ride (or rides if we are lucky) that we want to ride the most AND if we have fun interactive ques we may actually get more quality, fun family time together.


I agree-- at first I thought we would be left out of FPP, since we do not plan much, but with a little analization (?) of our typical trip, I can see a readable pattern that will allow reasonable scheduling of FPP.

Our visits have become more relaxed, and since we never make rope drop, we will actually have an easier time getting FP's for the more difficult to see attractions.

As someone else here has said-- the key will be being ahead of the learning curve.

This is the same principle we have all been using for the current FP system, however now the general visitor has caught up with the early learning curve, making the system become more difficult to use for all, and the visitor who is "not in the know" is really out of luck.

Change is good.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:27 PM   #28
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The capacity of the rides won't change, so not everyone will get to ride when they want to. Same as it now. However,instead of "rewarding" those who get to the parks early and/or have a fast pass plan of action, FP+ seems to reward those who book early enough.

I like the current system in that I can make certain sacrifices to ensure what I want to do...I can choose to not sleep in to make sure we get to ride TSM or I can choose to run my butt off getting fastpasses. But will is be like the ADRs that if I don't book early enough then too bad for you?..seems that way. We are going in June and I've already had to tell the kids that we probably can't have dinner at BOG since no reservations are available. I know it's not exactly the same but has me concerned.

I can adjust and book early for the best attractions in the middle of the day (like everyone else who has a clue under the new system). Those who don't will get a 9:30 am FP for TOT and a 8:30 pm FP for Star Tours and then have to stand in the same long lines the rest of the day. Magical.

It also seems the days of giving someone your fastpass you can't use are over since the wristband or RFID is the fastpass. I hate this as we have benefitted from the kindness of others and love when we have had the blessing of giving ours away.

Finally, does anyone know where these reserved parade or fireworks areas will be? If I plop my butt down 2 hours early for a parade spot (with a napping toddler..why not) will I be made to move if this is a reserved spot? I had this happen with an area reserved for handicapped persons watching a parade. When the rope came up, the CM told us we had to move and by this time we we three or four deep behind others. There was nothing marked letting us know this was a special spot. Ok, no big deal, just a bit of bad luck picking our spot. But what happens if 5000 ( or more) people get a parade spot FP because they want to or because nothing else was available?

Maybe I'm wrong and this will be great.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:50 PM   #29
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The capacity of the rides won't change, so not everyone will get to ride when they want to. Same as it now. However,instead of "rewarding" those who get to the parks early and/or have a fast pass plan of action, FP+ seems to reward those who book early enough.
For most experiences, it really won't matter. This isn't like a restaurant reservation where each location can only accommodate a couple hundred parties (max) for dinner each day. Even the lowest-capacity Disney attractions can handle upward of 1000 guests per hour.

When you factor in the dramatic increase in number of FP+ attractions and experiences (about 3x as many as in the legacy FP system) and the apparent limitation of 3 FP+ per guest, per day, there is likely to be a great deal of flexibility. Guests will be able to decide their destination park when they wake up in the morning, and still pre-book FP+ before leaving their hotel room. Or they can make adjustments on-the-fly while in a theme park.

The attractions / experiences with the absolute highest demand may present some problem. You might not be able to decide at 6pm that you'd like to ride Toy Story Mania before close, and still get a slot. And limited capacity experiences like the parade and fireworks viewing could prove more difficult if popular with guests. But overall, I don't envision this being a system where guests are blocked out of every E-Ticket attraction weeks in advance. Not even close to that.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:45 PM   #30
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Smile ~Wow!!!

~This is a really good discussion, all of the opinions and thoughts presented here are well articulated & very insightful -- I really enjoyed reading them. This thread is one of the best discussions on FP+ that I have ever seen -- color me impressed!!!
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