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Old 03-04-2013, 10:15 PM   #61
Tozzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paging Tom Morrow View Post
The requirement is that the passenger has to comply with the rules for check-in. The airline cannot eliminate the ability for the passenger to comply with those rules as a way of limiting their liability for denied boarding.
That is your interpretation, my interpretation is different, the only way to know for sure, is for the OP to actually file a complaint with the DOT and see what they say.
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Paging Tom Morrow
Could you please post your source for why you believe that denied boarding can only happen at the airport near the flight time? The federal regulations on denied boarding do not define any time period, so I am curious as to what your source is.
The flight doesn't exist yet. It won't exist until sometime in April. There's nothing tangible to deny - prevent, really. It's somewhat like, "No, I'm not taking the baby to your mother's tomorrow; it's not due until April!"
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:31 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Tozzie View Post
Well I did find this section of the regs,

Exceptions to eligibility for denied boarding compensation.

A passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:

(a) The passenger does not comply fully with the carrier's contract of carriage or tariff provisions regarding ticketing, reconfirmation, check-in, and acceptability for transportation
;

The passenger has to actually check in for the flight and they are going to be able to check in for the flight, therefore if you take the rules on face value as written they are not being involuntarily bumped.
The passenger did not fail to comply with the ... provisions regarding ... check in, and accep... e.g. being at the boarding gate fully checked in X minutes prior to departure. Therefore he is not ineligible for denied boarding compensation.
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(snip)

The DOT regulations as shown above seem to make it clear that Southwest has an obligation to request volunteers before forcing people to change flights. For some reason, there seems to be a misconception that the customer protections offered within these rules do not extend beyond the immediate boarding process. These regulations make no mention of any time frame.
But did the airline actually ask all passengers for volunteers first?
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:46 PM   #64
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It's not yet April. The flight doesn't yet exist. Boarding can't be denied from a flight that doesn't exist.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:38 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr
It's not yet April. The flight doesn't yet exist. Boarding can't be denied from a flight that doesn't exist.
Based on your response here, I'm guessing you don't have a legal background, which is fine, however you are presenting your opinion as fact.

The flight absolutely does exist as they have both scheduled it and took reservations against it. Southwest has the right to modify its schedule to better allocate their airplanes to meet demand and could legally modify existing reservations based on the federal regulations and their own COC without paying a penalty. They cannot however modify existing reservations arbitrarily because of their own errors without being subject to the consumer protections afforded based on the regulatory requirements.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:46 AM   #66
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Off topic legal jargon -- Acting capriciously. I don't think airlines may do this regarding cancelling reservations.

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The flight doesn't exist yet. It won't exist until sometime in April. There's nothing tangible to deny - prevent, really. It's somewhat like, "No, I'm not taking the baby to your mother's tomorrow; it's not due until April!"
(Whimsically way off topic)
A typical time for a flight to come into existence is 331 days in advance of boarding. However for some airlines including Southwest, the advance time is less.

According to some, notably pro-lifers, (human) babies tend to come into existence around 270 days before birth.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:32 AM   #67
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The flight absolutely does exist as they have both scheduled it and took reservations against it.
Scheduled, sure. But today isn't April, and there is no plane at any gate anywhere to transport the original poster from MCO to PHL today on the date she reserved. Boarding is a physical activity. There has have to be a plane and a passenger present for denied boarding to be possibly.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:45 AM   #68
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Scheduled, sure. But today isn't April, and there is no plane at any gate anywhere to transport the original poster from MCO to PHL today on the date she reserved. Boarding is a physical activity. There has have to be a plane and a passenger present for denied boarding to be possibly.
Under what legal definition? If the OP showed up for the flight, would she be allowed on the plane?

Sorry kaytiee, I disagree with you on this one.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:22 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
The flight doesn't exist yet. It won't exist until sometime in April. There's nothing tangible to deny - prevent, really. It's somewhat like, "No, I'm not taking the baby to your mother's tomorrow; it's not due until April!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
It's not yet April. The flight doesn't yet exist. Boarding can't be denied from a flight that doesn't exist.
In this case, the OP does have something tangible, the ticket. Although it is in electronic format, the OP could ask for a paper copy; however, their funds were exchanged for a ticket number that permits passage on a specific route (flight number) at a specific time. As such, the OP has a tangible asset (the flight) that the airline is now attempting to change due to their negligence. The ruling in the CFR was designed to protect passengers from this behavior from the airline.

Just because it isn't flight time, doesn't mean the passengers will not sustain damage due to being involuntarily denied boarding on that flight.

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Originally Posted by seashoreCM View Post
But did the airline actually ask all passengers for volunteers first?
That is a good questions, and why I mentioned it in my post.
- WN called the OP and stated they were forcing the change. (could be considered asking)
- The OP said No to teh request and stated they wanted to keep the same flight.

At this point, WN should have called other passengers to ask for volunteers, based on the ruling in the CFR. However instead, the WN representative simply stated the passenger had no choice and forced the flight change.
- This would be in compliance with the pronouncement only if the OP was the very last passenger contacted, thus becoming the first passenger to be involuntary removed from the flight.
- While possible, this would be a great coincidence, and I doubt WN is willing to produce evidence that all other ticketed passengers were contacted unless pressed in court or they receive a records request from the FAA.

To the OP, it may seem as though the thread is being hijacked, but this is an important discussion, as it goes to the rules airlines must follow and the flying public's knowledge of them. While we are far enough out from the flight, many people do not know the CFR 250 exists, which is important if they are at the airport being denied boarding by the airline.

In summary, I premise the OP does have a tangible asset in the form of a ticket for the flight. Southwest Airline (WN) is likely not in compliance with the Flyer's bill of rights, as they involuntarily denied boarding to the OP and did not produce the proper compensation for this action. It will be interesting to see if WN send written notification of the denial. Finally, others can get hosed due to not knowing the rules, which we are attempting to learn/review.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:31 PM   #70
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Under what legal definition? If the OP showed up for the flight, would she be allowed on the plane?

Sorry kaytiee, I disagree with you on this one.
Well, she wouldn't be allowed on the original flight because she accepted the change. At that point, she will have been denied boarding. Until then, no. The combination of plane+passenger+departure date must be present at the airport (gate, really) for denied boarding to be possible.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:57 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
Well, she wouldn't be allowed on the original flight because she accepted the change. At that point, she will have been denied boarding. Until then, no. t be present at the airport (gate, really) for denied boarding to be possible.
I completely agree with this. Since the vouchers were excepted, WN has a claim. This is why the topic is excellent. many of our fellow DISers don't know the pronouncement exists, nor that the DOT recently decided to increase the penalty fees instead of denying the process of overbooking completely.

Many times, if you have access to the regulations, we should prevail with the gate agents, or at least, we know there is recourse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
The combination of plane+passenger+departure date must be present at the airport (gate, really) for denied boarding to be possible.
I still do not agree with this, as I have been looking but can not find anything that states this.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:48 PM   #72
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Yes, but without the sugar it's gonna taste horrible.
If I'm handed lemons, it better be in the form of Limoncello.
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Agreed ... but it is Best to know what you are entitled

Before you accept/agree to a offered settlement.

This would be an example of the difference between a frequent flyer and a casual flyer.

Possible experience/knowledge to hold out for the better offer.

FlyerTalk ... YMMV

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Old 03-05-2013, 06:04 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Greysword View Post
In this case, the OP does have something tangible, the ticket. Although it is in electronic format, the OP could ask for a paper copy; however, their funds were exchanged for a ticket number that permits passage on a specific route (flight number) at a specific time. As such, the OP has a tangible asset (the flight) that the airline is now attempting to change due to their negligence. The ruling in the CFR was designed to protect passengers from this behavior from the airline.

Just because it isn't flight time, doesn't mean the passengers will not sustain damage due to being involuntarily denied boarding on that flight.

That is a good questions, and why I mentioned it in my post.
- WN called the OP and stated they were forcing the change. (could be considered asking)
- The OP said No to teh request and stated they wanted to keep the same flight.

At this point, WN should have called other passengers to ask for volunteers, based on the ruling in the CFR. However instead, the WN representative simply stated the passenger had no choice and forced the flight change.
- This would be in compliance with the pronouncement only if the OP was the very last passenger contacted, thus becoming the first passenger to be involuntary removed from the flight.
- While possible, this would be a great coincidence, and I doubt WN is willing to produce evidence that all other ticketed passengers were contacted unless pressed in court or they receive a records request from the FAA.

To the OP, it may seem as though the thread is being hijacked, but this is an important discussion, as it goes to the rules airlines must follow and the flying public's knowledge of them. While we are far enough out from the flight, many people do not know the CFR 250 exists, which is important if they are at the airport being denied boarding by the airline.

In summary, I premise the OP does have a tangible asset in the form of a ticket for the flight. Southwest Airline (WN) is likely not in compliance with the Flyer's bill of rights, as they involuntarily denied boarding to the OP and did not produce the proper compensation for this action. It will be interesting to see if WN send written notification of the denial. Finally, others can get hosed due to not knowing the rules, which we are attempting to learn/review.
No hijacking considered this has been highly informative for me, as well as others, I'm sure
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:32 AM   #74
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Info below taken directly from wn contract of carriage. Maybe the DOT would rule differently, but I'm guessing based on the explanation in 3) (i) they are able to circumvent denied boarding due to the passenger not able to "present himself at the appropriate time and place...", since the flight is for a date in the future. Just my understanding.



3)Conditions for Payment of Compensation to Passengers Involuntarily Denied Boarding due to an Oversale. Subject to the exception in Section 4 below of this Article, Carrier will tender to a Passenger the amount of compensation specified in Section 5 of this Article, provided that:
(i) The Passenger holds a Ticket, including a Zero Fare Ticket, for confirmed reserved space and presents himself for Carriage at the appropriate time and place, having complied fully with Carrier’s requirements as to ticketing, checkin, and acceptability for transportation in accordance with this Contract of Carriage; and
(ii) Other than for reasons set forth in Article 6, above, or when resulting from substitution, for operational or safety reasons, of an aircraft having a lesser seating capacity than the aircraft originally scheduled, Carrier is unable to accommodate the Passenger on the flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space, and such flight departs without the Passenger.
(4) Comparable Transportation. The Passenger will not be eligible for compensation if Carrier offers comparable air transportation, or other transportation used by the Passenger at no extra cost, that, at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger's next stopover or, if none, at the airport of the Passenger's final destination no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight or flights.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:01 AM   #75
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(i) The Passenger holds a Ticket, including a Zero Fare Ticket, for confirmed reserved space and presents himself for Carriage at the appropriate time and place,
Because the departure date has not yet arrived, it's impossible for any passenger on this flight to meet the Denied Boarding criteria.
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