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Old 02-24-2013, 09:02 AM   #211
luvmy3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliceacc View Post
A lot of us who are professional educators would. Though, again, in my book, the timeline is immaterial. There are so many other problems with what has been reported about what happened in that classroom.

And, as one parent to another, I've got to ask: are these the types of teachers you WANT teaching YOUR kids?? If it were possible, would you request that your child be put into this person's class next year?
I understand that, you asked, I answered.

Would I want these kinds of teachers teaching my kids? Well to be honest I cant really answer that because I don't know anything about these teachers other than this incident, and I wouldn't base my decision on just this. I can say that this alone would not be why I didn't want my child in their class though. Like I said, some parents don't get themselves all riled up about this stuff. Do I think it was the most effective "punishment", no I don't. Do I think this is going to psychologically scar these students for the rest of their lives, no. Do I think these teachers are horrible and cruel, no.
Obviously, YMMV.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:04 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by joviroxx

1) Bullying is a world wide problem, not a first world problem. And I am just of the opinion that this is NOT bullying and its shameful to categorize it as such. Just my opinion....

2) Moral dipstick? Who the heck said my kids need to be held up to a moral dipstick. LOL.. I bring them up because they are the same age as these kids who are supposedly so emotionally distressed that they will never trust teachers again and are being so harmfully bullied. I figured listening to kid's opinions on this matter might be just as relevant as the opinions of just a few emotionally charged adults and scandal hungry media.

Listen, if people insist on making this issue one that is so damaging to our youth and have to run to the media with it, so be it. It their right. While I might think differently if we were talking about 6 year olds, I just think it isn't. My opinion is different.. no biggie.
I brought it up to my high school students (130 of them) and only a handful were NOT vocal about how that was so wrong/an abuse of power. None, not one, felt that was acceptable behavior from a teacher. Teachers don't "get back" at students who break rules, are poorly behaved, etc. if we did I would be plotting revenge on a daily basis...rotfl.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:39 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by kaytieeldr View Post
Huh? No, I'm (and I think Sam) just trying to figure out exactly who did exactly what and when.

Based on what you indicate is the most reliable source, and piecing together information Sam and I have found there:
A teacher left brochures/permission slips on/at(/in?) her desk about a trip to Walt Disney World Thursday, to : trap? catch ?teach a lesson to? a snooping student
The student snooper Thursday and shared the information with classmates (who went home excited but seemingly didn't share the information at home because it wasn't official?)
Eighth grade assembly spent a total of thirty minutes out of the entire academic year on a fake presentation. The only possible humiliating part of the entire event was the recording being shown to another class (although at least one article describes it as being watched by a student teacher in another room while occurring, and being seen by some students).
You and Sam are clearly obsessed with the timeline, length of the event, etc., so I have 3 scenarios for you:

You both have expressed the fact that since the actual presentation was only 30 mins, and only happened over a couple of days, it's no big deal, and that everyone should get over it, but if it had been longer, than the kids and parents would be justified in their feelings.

Let's extrapolate that to several other scenarios:

1) I take long trips, sometimes 13-16 days in length; therefore, based on your logic, my trips are more relevant and important than any trip under that length of time. Length of event seems to be more important to you than the actual purpose of the event (humiliation and embarrassement of students to teach an alleged lesson).

By virtue of this logic, than my trips are probably going to be more important than most everybody else, as most trips are 5-7 days in length, according to Disney.

Let's go one further. I am a DVC member, and therefore, my Disney trips are even more important than non-DVC members, as I take more trips than most others.

What do you think about this logic now? It is a ridiculous sentiment to presume that length of an event, determines the emotional output of such event.

2) Here is another one for you: Facebook and Twitter. I have students who can do more damage in 1 minute of posting, than you can imagine. School fights, school shootings, suicides, bullying, are all the result of a few seconds or minutes of posting on a social media website. We look at potential damage to climate of school, safety of students and staff, and the tone of messages spread. We suspend kids constantly for posting on those sites, as it injures the moral tone of our school. We don't look at length of message, as that is irrelevant. Just as the length of the fake Disney trip is irrevelant, or the fact that it only took place over a couple of days.

3) A person's young child dies, and my friend's husband dies. She should be allowed to show more grief, since her husband was older than the child, so others should expect the parent to get over his/her grief quicker, right?

Hopefully, these scenarios will help you see how your argument is flawed. As educators, we are angry with the message, source and purpose of this prank, end of story.

Tiger

Last edited by Tiger926; 02-24-2013 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:50 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger926 View Post
You and Sam are clearly obsessed with the timeline, length of the event, etc., so I have 3 scenarios for you:

You both have expressed the fact that since the actual presentation was only 30 mins, and only happened over a couple of days, it's no big deal, and that everyone should get over it, but if it had been longer, than the kids and parents would be justified in their feelings.

Let's extrapolate that to several other scenarios:

1) I take long trips, sometimes 13-16 days in length; therefore, based on your logic, my trips are more relevant and important than any trip under that length of time. Length of event seems to be more important to you than the actual purpose of the event (humiliation and embarrassement of students to teach an alleged lesson).

By virtue of this logic, than my trips are probably going to be more important than most everybody else, as most trips are 5-7 days in length, according to Disney.

Let's go one further. I am a DVC member, and therefore, my Disney trips are even more important than non-DVC members, as I take more trips than most others.

What do you think about this logic now? It is a ridiculous sentiment to presume that length of an event, determines the emotional output of such event.

2) Here is another one for you: Facebook and Twitter. I have students who can do more damage in 1 minute of posting, than you can imagine. School fights, school shootings, suicides, bullying, are all the result of a few seconds or minutes of posting on a social media website. We look at potential damage to climate of school, safety of students and staff, and the tone of messages spread. We suspend kids constantly for posting on those sites, as it injures the moral tone of our school. We don't look at length of message, as that is irrelevant. Just as the length of the fake Disney trip is irrevelant, or the fact that it only took place over a couple of days.

3) A person's young child dies, and my friend's husband dies. She should be allowed to show more grief, since her husband was older than the child, so others should expect the parent to get over his/her grief quicker, right?

Hopefully, these scenarios will help you see how your argument is flawed. As educators, we are angry with the message, source and purpose of this prank, end of story.

Tiger
I wouldn't say they were the ones obsessed.
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Old 02-24-2013, 09:53 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmy3

I wouldn't say they were the ones obsessed.
Seriously? That is your contribution to this discussion?

Tiger

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by wiigirl
Never joke when it comes to Disney.
Disney is srs bsns!
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:23 AM   #217
kaytieeldr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger926
Length of event seems to be more important to you than the actual purpose of the event (humiliation and embarrassement of students to teach an alleged lesson).
No. Facts are the most important information necessary. That's why I continue trying to ascertain who did what to whom and when. If this had been an actual crime, facts - not rumors or opinions - are how guilt or innocence would be determined.

It appears that a student's snooping on Thursday is what led his/her classmates to believe overnight that there was a school-sponsored Walt Disney World trip in their futures. The actual assembly, where their hopes were raised, then dashed, by their teachers led to understandable dimly and disappointment. Nothing in the presentation reasonably should have caused these students to be humiliated or embarrassed.

Showing the recording to (yet) another class was entirely out of line, and absolutely could cause the tricked students to be embarrassed/humiliated, depending on their reactions.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:55 AM   #218
luvmy3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger926 View Post
Seriously? That is your contribution to this discussion?

Tiger

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No, just an observation about your contributions to this discussion.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:30 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliceacc View Post
I cannot imagine why the timeline matters.

Here's what I see as wrong with this story:

- The teachers in question had such poor classroom management that a child or children were apparently snooping, yet the teachers had no other manner of determining who to punish. That means they were unaware of the physical presence of kids in their classroom. This isn't a matter of wandering eyes-- in order to snoop in the teacher's desk, your physical presence must be at the teacher's desk. Yet the teacher was unaware of that physical presence?? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Exactly where was the teacher when that snooping was happening? The cardinal rule of teaching: you do NOT leave kids unattended.

- Instead of tightening up that classroom management and actually knowing where their students were, the teachers chose to retailiate against an entire group of 14 year olds, most of whom were not involved in the snooping. Retailiation is not discipline. Discipline is proportional to the offense, yet most of these kids had committed no offense. Discipline is constructive-- it builds relationships. This destroyed relationships.

- This was an abuse of power. The very nature of the relationship between student and teacher is one where (hopefully) the teacher is in charge. As such, there's a level of trust that needs to develop between the student and the teacher. When I tell my students that they need to know something, things generally work better if they believe me. Likewise, as the figure of authority in the room, there are times when I NEED them to do exactly as I say-- for example, when the fire alarm goes off. I need them to trust in my judgement, and to obey because they know I'm acting in their best interests. That trust in the authority of all teachers is erroded when the kids realize that some teachers do NOT act in their best interest.

- That retailiation involved making those 14 year olds look like fools in front of other kids-- something I would punish if I caught one kid doing it to another. And it involved raising, then lowering, the hopes of a group of kids. You know what that teaches?? Cynicism, something that we already have far too much of and don't need in a group of 14 year olds. And, once taught, it can't be untaught.

- That retailiation was simply mean. It raised the hopes of a bunch of kids that they would receive something some had never dreamed was within their grasp, then taking it away. Look at how involved we at the Disboards are in our trips, when many of us have been there multiple times. To dangle a trip like this in front of kids, then remove it, is simply mean. I don't care how long they dangled it. The timeline doesn't make it any less a cruel prank, regardless of what happened when. It was mean. I don't tolerate meanness from my students, and I would most certainly not tolerate it from the teachers of my kids.

- In an era when teachers are constantly under the gun, expected to teach MORE MORE MORE with LESS LESS LESS, classroom time was taken (from a class where classroom management was already an issue) with the sole purpose of retailation against a group of kids.

- These adults are not professionals. As a fellow teacher, I'm embarassed to think that anyone who dislikes kids to this extent could call himself a teacher. I would not want to work with these people, and I would not want my kids taught by them. Aside from the obvious classroom management issues, aside from the lack of care for time spent on academics, this has all the hallmarks of a frat boy prank. When the teachers of my kids act in loco parentis, I am trusting that they'll take care of my kids, nurture and educate them as I would, and as I do with the kids I teach. . I wouldn't stoop this low with anyone, much less one of the kids in my charge.

I'm hoping that in very short order, the new teachers of those kids will somehow manage to salvage the school year for those kids. That they'll get someone who knows how to manage a classroom, has his priorities in the right places, and actually likes the kids he teaches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
I understand that, you asked, I answered.

Would I want these kinds of teachers teaching my kids? Well to be honest I cant really answer that because I don't know anything about these teachers other than this incident, and I wouldn't base my decision on just this. I can say that this alone would not be why I didn't want my child in their class though. .
As I've stated, I think we know a LOT about the performance of these adults as teachers. And I can state definitively that, given a choice, I would prefer that they not teach my kids. And that I would most definitely choose not to work with these people.

I get along well with the professionals with whom I'm fortunate enough to work. That said, I can't imagine any of the 125 teachers with whom I work showing the lack of maturity and professionalism to consider a stunt like this one.

I've taught every grade from 7 through 12 (except, somehow, 8th.) I know that kids can get under your skin. But to sink this low, to put together a stunt like this one, is not the behavior of a professional educator. It's the behavior of a spoiled adolescent in adult clothes, being given adult responsibilities for which he is apparently unqualified.

And, on that note, I'm off to tutor Geometry.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:07 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger926 View Post
You and Sam are clearly obsessed with the timeline, length of the event, etc., so I have 3 scenarios for you:

You both have expressed the fact that since the actual presentation was only 30 mins, and only happened over a couple of days, it's no big deal, and that everyone should get over it, but if it had been longer, than the kids and parents would be justified in their feelings.

Let's extrapolate that to several other scenarios:

1) I take long trips, sometimes 13-16 days in length; therefore, based on your logic, my trips are more relevant and important than any trip under that length of time. Length of event seems to be more important to you than the actual purpose of the event (humiliation and embarrassement of students to teach an alleged lesson).

By virtue of this logic, than my trips are probably going to be more important than most everybody else, as most trips are 5-7 days in length, according to Disney.

Let's go one further. I am a DVC member, and therefore, my Disney trips are even more important than non-DVC members, as I take more trips than most others.

What do you think about this logic now? It is a ridiculous sentiment to presume that length of an event, determines the emotional output of such event.

2) Here is another one for you: Facebook and Twitter. I have students who can do more damage in 1 minute of posting, than you can imagine. School fights, school shootings, suicides, bullying, are all the result of a few seconds or minutes of posting on a social media website. We look at potential damage to climate of school, safety of students and staff, and the tone of messages spread. We suspend kids constantly for posting on those sites, as it injures the moral tone of our school. We don't look at length of message, as that is irrelevant. Just as the length of the fake Disney trip is irrevelant, or the fact that it only took place over a couple of days.

3) A person's young child dies, and my friend's husband dies. She should be allowed to show more grief, since her husband was older than the child, so others should expect the parent to get over his/her grief quicker, right?

Hopefully, these scenarios will help you see how your argument is flawed. As educators, we are angry with the message, source and purpose of this prank, end of story.

Tiger
I apologize that we're trying to find out what happened. Wasn't it you who said earlier the media accounts aren't always accurate?

Speaking for me (I think kaytiee agrees, but I'm not positive), what actually happened and WHEN it happened does affect my thinking and how upset I'd be as a parent. If the teachers told the kids on Thursday, then had an assembly on Friday where they told the truth, I would be more upset. Having an assembly on Friday, telling the kids they were going to Disney, then in the same assembly, say "Nope, Gotcha!", while I don't find it amusing, I don't see anything worth getting upset about. YMAV (Your Mileage Apparently Varies)

There have been quotes (from Parents) and links posted here that have been contradictory.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:37 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliceacc
As I've stated, I think we know a LOT about the performance of these adults as teachers.
Really? From one incident?
Because we don't know anything about their backgrounds, their educations, their teaching experience, their teaching history, their teaching methods, their reviews, how (prior to this) they got along with current students, how well they teach and taught the material, what subjects, for how many years, to how many students, if/how well-respected they are by their peers (again, prior to last week), whether their entire teaching experience has been at Roseland Public School, how old each is...

I don't think we know anything about them at all, except that they used bad judgment in allowing the recording to be seen by another class. We don't even know what other (failed) steps were taken previously to stop the snooper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_gordon
Speaking for me (I think kaytiee agrees, but I'm not positive),
Yes, Sam, I do agree. Just trying to grab the facts, from all tge information flying around.
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