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Old 02-08-2013, 09:12 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Aliceacc
Those poor little girls.

I can't imagine how they perceive the whole situation-- Daddy moved out of the city to an apartment we can't visit. We can see daddy once every so often at grandma's if it's not raining or he's not wrestling... I hope he can squeeze us in.

When they look back at this time in their lives, how will they view their dad's actions?
Oh wow. He is at work. He doesn't take them to a strange city to an apartment filled with men.

Would you feel better if I said he quit work so that he could be with them every day and is living off the government? He couldn't find another job. There are few jobs to be had which is why his brother works offshore and Dh drives a truck. Jobs in this town pay very little.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:15 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by luvsJack View Post
Ok lets start over here. Ds had a low paying job and couldn't find anything else until this came up. He is making 3 to 4 times as much money as he was and is able to support his family. His hours are from 5am until 6. He is too far away to come home every night. He and 2 other guys share an apartment and the whole complex is guys that work for this company. No wives or families. They all go home on the weekends.

Wrestling is not keeping him from his kids. In fact tomorrow night he is taking them with him to the show. Last week dil went to the show and brought the girls to him. He has picked them up after the show when he was going later because of work. It makes him about 2 hours later.

He does not ask me to keep his kids when he has them. He never asked me to get them on those couple of weekends, she did. He didn't even know she asked me about the concert weekend. She asked me because of the possibility of his working.

If he has to work on Saturday he can't just run and get his kids on Fridays . He would be picking them up around 8 driving back and leaving them the next morning at4.

Dil does not have the kids to herself all week. Her mom keeps them. I have kept them. My mom has kept them. Oldest dgd goes to preschool and we all help her get her there and home again. She does not have a job and does not have a car so we all help her. On Wednesdays I take the girls to church. Ds supports her and the girls.

I have never had any problem getting along with her. She is a sweet girl. She loves her girls and always seemed to love ds.

When I was a single mom, my ex. worked offshore, I didn't expect him to quit his job or find a baby-sitter when he was at work. I really don't quite get this mentality. If ds doesn't have this job whom exactly is going to buy diapers?
I wish you'd included all this information in your first post; perhaps people would have seen the situation more clearly and been less judgmental. I thought your ds probably took a job that he NEEDED; why else would he move away from his kids, unless it was to take a job to support his family? It amazes me that people so blithely say "get a different job." Have you tried that lately? Easier said than done. Also, regardless of what people think about him doing it, he gets paid to wrestle; it's a second job. Given the physical demands and risk, my guess is that he makes more in a 2 hour wrestling gig than he would working two hours at, say, a convenience food store or gas station, if they'd even hire him for only two hours.

It's clear that your dil gets plenty of support and help with the kids during the week. It sounds like you, your dil, and her mom all live in the same town, or at least nearby. It's great that everyone helps support your dil by taking care of the kids, driving them to where they need to be, etc. It sounds like everyone gets along OK, and loves the kids.

Your ds and dil need to sit down and figure out a visitation/custody agreement for show choir season. For right now, it sounds like one parent needs to hire a babysitter for the concert weekend, even if it means your son agrees not to see the kids until Sunday that weekend, so they can stay in their own home with a babysitter while their mom goes to the concert. However, they need to come up with a plan for show choir season. If you are unable to be the back-up for Saturday childcare in the event your son has to work, maybe during show choir season your son should only have the girls Saturday evenings and Sundays, and then revisit the schedule once you are able to help him again on Saturdays (in the event that he has to work). I do not think that for one second you should skip your daughter's competitions. My dd is a dancer, and I go to all her performances (10 shows of Nutcracker last fall!) unless something completely unavoidable (like my mil's wedding) happens.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:21 PM   #93
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Is he trying to get somewhere as a wrestler? I can understand wanting a hobby or sideline and it's great that he can take the kids.

It sounds to me like he's in a tough situation but he might have to make some changes. I hope that they can work it out.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:21 PM   #94
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I am completely biased about this entire situation, so let me give you my skewed point of view. You have enabled your son to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. You pick up the pieces. Then when DIL expects it of you, you balk at her, not him. DIL would like a little consistency for herself as well as her girls, but your son cannot offer that. He does not find the time he should to spend with his girls and if they're that little, she shouldn't be picking them up at 8, 9, 10 p.m. (I believe you said something about picking them up late, although maybe I read that wrong). And the time will come when his daughter's will reject him. He is unable to find time for them now. They will be unable to find time for him later. And his feelings will be hurt. And he will talk about how his daughters are disrespecting him. Am I projecting here, or maybe this is the way it is. You reap when you sow.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:38 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by luvsJack View Post
Oh wow. He is at work. He doesn't take them to a strange city to an apartment filled with men.

Would you feel better if I said he quit work so that he could be with them every day and is living off the government? He couldn't find another job. There are few jobs to be had which is why his brother works offshore and Dh drives a truck. Jobs in this town pay very little.

I don't think anyone is saying he should just up and quit the job on Monday. What people are saying is he should make an effort to find something that fits his life better. Like it or not he has responsibilities at home that extend beyond paying child support. The kids need a relationship with their father too.

I think you lost a lot of us with the wrestling. It may just be two hours a week but given that he only has generally one day a week to spend with them and he takes two of those hours to go play with his friends that is in fact a crappy thing to do. It's not just the house he has to spend with his kids but how he spends those hours. Taking off to wrestle for two hours on the one day a week he usually gets to see them would be unacceptable to me.

And it is his responsibility to find a babysitter because he is supposed to be responsible for the kids on the weekend. If he can't/won't show up when he is supposed to it is his responsibility to make sure the kids are cared for.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:43 PM   #96
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Ok lets start over here. Ds had a low paying job and couldn't find anything else until this came up. He is making 3 to 4 times as much money as he was and is able to support his family. His hours are from 5am until 6. He is too far away to come home every night. He and 2 other guys share an apartment and the whole complex is guys that work for this company. No wives or families. They all go home on the weekends.

Wrestling is not keeping him from his kids. In fact tomorrow night he is taking them with him to the show. Last week dil went to the show and brought the girls to him. He has picked them up after the show when he was going later because of work. It makes him about 2 hours later.

He does not ask me to keep his kids when he has them. He never asked me to get them on those couple of weekends, she did. He didn't even know she asked me about the concert weekend. She asked me because of the possibility of his working.

If he has to work on Saturday he can't just run and get his kids on Fridays . He would be picking them up around 8 driving back and leaving them the next morning at4.

Dil does not have the kids to herself all week. Her mom keeps them. I have kept them. My mom has kept them. Oldest dgd goes to preschool and we all help her get her there and home again. She does not have a job and does not have a car so we all help her. On Wednesdays I take the girls to church. Ds supports her and the girls.

I have never had any problem getting along with her. She is a sweet girl. She loves her girls and always seemed to love ds.

When I was a single mom, my ex. worked offshore, I didn't expect him to quit his job or find a baby-sitter when he was at work. I really don't quite get this mentality. If ds doesn't have this job whom exactly is going to buy diapers?
I get what you are saying and I understand people need to work, but that is really neither here, nor there. Having done my stomp through family court, here is what will happen.

His ex, since she, technically has the children 6 days a week, will be given primary custody. Also since she has them 6 days a week will be awarded child support in an amount that is commensurate with having the children 6 nights a week (she is probably, at this juncture eligible for AFDC, if she files they will summons him for a child support hearing)

The judge will not want to hear that he doesn't have a home suitable for his children. He will be told to acquire one, or he will not be allowed over night visitation, which will increase his child support again. The judge will not want to hear that he has wrestling, or has to work, or has no sitter on his court ordered days. He will be told to find an appropriate sitter, and pay for it if he has to. Really, I have been there, and done that. The judge also doesn't want to hear anything about any grandparents.

My ex had custody of his daughter. We had all the same issues with his ex as your daughter in law has with your son. She didn't have a car. The judge told her "You are responsible for 50% of the transportation, find a ride, get on the bus, do what you have to do." She was living in a 2 bedroom apartment that she was sharing with her mother and a younger sibling. The judge told her, "the child needs a room, not a room she shares with an adult, her own room, find somewhere appropriate to live, or you don't get overnight visitation." She would do the same and cancel picking her up on her weekends at the last minute, sometimes leaving us scrambling for a sitter. The judge told her that unless it were an emergency, advance notice was needed to change the visitation agreement, and both parties must agree. Child care on her days was her responsibility.

Your son is an adult. They are his kids, too. Regardless of how you may have handled visitation with your ex, it is not a situation which works for your son and daughter in law. You are the grandmother, not the parent, they are not your kids and you are under no obligation to care for them. Her parents are also under no obligation to care for them. If you are both volunteering and helping out, that is nice, but in the end they are both adults and must come to a compromise.

Sometimes as parents we have to sacrifice. I'm married, and there are things I have to give up because the kids are a priority, it is doubly hard if you are a single parent. Your son needs to work on getting his situation settled and providing a home for his children. If that means he has to commute, or give up some recreation time, so be it. Your only responsibility is your child. Your son is responsible for his.

I have a teen daughter who babysits when we need her. (she gets paid, though) At no time ever do I consider it her responsibility. They aren't her kids. So if we ask her to sit and she has plans, too bad, so sad. We have to find another sitter, or stay home. You need to make your son step up to the plate and take care of his responsibilities.

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Old 02-08-2013, 09:53 PM   #97
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I can see her point.

She has the kids most of the time, he's supposed to have them for a portion of the time. If he is supposed to have them on the weekends then its up to him to take care of finding someone to watch them, not hers. Also, his expense if there is one, not hers. He can't just say he has work, or wrestling. They are his responsibility too, not just hers.

Having someone take the kids for a couple hours here and there isn't the same as not having the kids for a weekend and being able to do what you want for a while. I think they need to sit down and figure this out some more. She is deserving of a night or two off too. Maybe two weekends a month he can take them and/or have someone in place to watch them if he is working or wants to do something? It's not as if she isn't giving plenty of notice that she has an event she wants to go to.

I mean, lets turn it around this way, she gets a boyfriend and moves 50 miles away and she doesn't want to drop the girls off on the weekends because they have soccer and ballet and friends they want to play with and sleep overs they want to go too. Does she get to NOT let them visit him because her life is too busy?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:07 PM   #98
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Folks I am not sure where this derailed. It was TWO Fridays that I picked up the girls. He did not ask me to. SHE did. He came home the next day and got them.

He is seeing his kids every weekend. He cannot get them on Friday if he has to work on Saturday. As soon as he gets home he gets them. Y'all are reading way too much into the whole wrestling thing. He can take them with him or simply stop by the venue on his way home--he has done both.
I do not take care of them for him. I keep them more for her than I do him.

I feel bad for the girls and worry about them. I see them as much as I can. but dd doesn't drive yet and has to be transported where she needs to go. and I have a job plus school.

Ds did not make the choice to live seperatly she did.

I know what its like to be a single mom. I also understand the working away from home. Neither one is easy but sometimes you have to make it work.

All of this started about a weekend she plans to be out of state for a concert. Wrestling has nothing to do with that weekend. Working at a job he needs so that his kids have clothes and food and diapers is the only thing that will make him unable to have them the whole time she is gone.

Taking them with him to work is not an option, finding a sitter near his work is not an option. Quiting his job is not an option. Picking them up Friday evening and having them with him until he leaves on Sunday is the best thing to do and what he will do if he can. But he cannot control the weather and he cannot control what his job requires.

His dad was rarely in his life. he and his brother were rarely a priority to their dad. He would rather be in a bar shooting pool than seeing his sons. I know what an absent father looks like and I can guarantee you this is not it.

He is here right now WITH his daughters. He came home, picked them up, got them something to eat, watched cartoons with them, got their baths and just got everybody to bed. Tomorrow they are going to the park and then they are going with him to the show. Sunday they will go to church and he is planning on the afternoon at the playground before he has to leave fore work. WOW. Wish his father would have been such a "horrible" parent.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:14 PM   #99
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I wish you'd included all this information in your first post; perhaps people would have seen the situation more clearly and been less judgmental. I thought your ds probably took a job that he NEEDED; why else would he move away from his kids, unless it was to take a job to support his family? It amazes me that people so blithely say "get a different job." Have you tried that lately? Easier said than done. Also, regardless of what people think about him doing it, he gets paid to wrestle; it's a second job. Given the physical demands and risk, my guess is that he makes more in a 2 hour wrestling gig than he would working two hours at, say, a convenience food store or gas station, if they'd even hire him for only two hours.

It's clear that your dil gets plenty of support and help with the kids during the week. It sounds like you, your dil, and her mom all live in the same town, or at least nearby. It's great that everyone helps support your dil by taking care of the kids, driving them to where they need to be, etc. It sounds like everyone gets along OK, and loves the kids.

Your ds and dil need to sit down and figure out a visitation/custody agreement for show choir season. For right now, it sounds like one parent needs to hire a babysitter for the concert weekend, even if it means your son agrees not to see the kids until Sunday that weekend, so they can stay in their own home with a babysitter while their mom goes to the concert. However, they need to come up with a plan for show choir season. If you are unable to be the back-up for Saturday childcare in the event your son has to work, maybe during show choir season your son should only have the girls Saturday evenings and Sundays, and then revisit the schedule once you are able to help him again on Saturdays (in the event that he has to work). I do not think that for one second you should skip your daughter's competitions. My dd is a dancer, and I go to all her performances (10 shows of Nutcracker last fall!) unless something completely unavoidable (like my mil's wedding) happens.
Thank you. You have given some good suggestions and I think I will pass them along. I think they have reached a point of seeing the need for a bit more of a formal agreement. They really are trying to get along and work this out together but sometimes wires just get crossed.

Thank you again.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:17 PM   #100
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So he's taking his little girls to watch essentially backyard wrestling? Is HE one of the wrestlers? Are these girls watching their dad get beat up (or beat up another person)??

Best thing you can do is to try to extricate yourself from the situation as much as possible. Offer what assistance you can when asked and don't feel guilty when you can't. They are the parents and it's up to them to arrange care for their children.

BTW, many people have offered to explain "how she feels so that you can understand" but you don't seem to want to hear it. I don't know what you really want (other than people to side with you and your son perhaps?). Unfortunately it sounds like a crappy situation for everyone involved.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:18 PM   #101
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I get what you are saying and I understand people need to work, but that is really neither here, nor there. Having done my stomp through family court, here is what will happen.

His ex, since she, technically has the children 6 days a week, will be given primary custody. Also since she has them 6 days a week will be awarded child support in an amount that is commensurate with having the children 6 nights a week (she is probably, at this juncture eligible for AFDC, if she files they will summons him for a child support hearing)

The judge will not want to hear that he doesn't have a home suitable for his children. He will be told to acquire one, or he will not be allowed over night visitation, which will increase his child support again. The judge will not want to hear that he has wrestling, or has to work, or has no sitter on his court ordered days. He will be told to find an appropriate sitter, and pay for it if he has to. Really, I have been there, and done that. The judge also doesn't want to hear anything about any grandparents.

My ex had custody of his daughter. We had all the same issues with his ex as your daughter in law has with your son. She didn't have a car. The judge told her "You are responsible for 50% of the transportation, find a ride, get on the bus, do what you have to do." She was living in a 2 bedroom apartment that she was sharing with her mother and a younger sibling. The judge told her, "the child needs a room, not a room she shares with an adult, her own room, find somewhere appropriate to live, or you don't get overnight visitation." She would do the same and cancel picking her up on her weekends at the last minute, sometimes leaving us scrambling for a sitter. The judge told her that unless it were an emergency, advance notice was needed to change the visitation agreement, and both parties must agree. Child care on her days was her responsibility.

Your son is an adult. They are his kids, too. Regardless of how you may have handled visitation with your ex, it is not a situation which works for your son and daughter in law. You are the grandmother, not the parent, they are not your kids and you are under no obligation to care for them. Her parents are also under no obligation to care for them. If you are both volunteering and helping out, that is nice, but in the end they are both adults and must come to a compromise.

Sometimes as parents we have to sacrifice. I'm married, and there are things I have to give up because the kids are a priority, it is doubly hard if you are a single parent. Your son needs to work on getting his situation settled and providing a home for his children. If that means he has to commute, or give up some recreation time, so be it. Your only responsibility is your child. Your son is responsible for his.

I have a teen daughter who babysits when we need her. (she gets paid, though) At no time ever do I consider it her responsibility. They aren't her kids. So if we ask her to sit and she has plans, too bad, so sad. We have to find another sitter, or stay home. You need to make your son step up to the plate and take care of his responsibilities.

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This was our experience also. My BIL had an apartment over his business that he moved into when he moved out of the family home. They told him he had to get an apartment with room for his kids. His kids never did spend the night with him (well, maybe one dd did 2 or 3 times and one stayed once) but he still had to provide them a place.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:28 PM   #102
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I really do understand your frustration. You love your son and you want to understand how your DDIL feels but you have a bias. You wanted to understand how your DDIL feels and people have tried to explain her POV.

It does not matter who wanted this separation. It does not matter why your DS moved away to work. It does not matter that you and your DDIL's parents help out during teh week. What does matter is that there are two kids who are shuffled around because there are no set arrangements for them.

Your son needs to figure out how to be a parent. He needs to find housing that is suitable for a family. He needs to address childcare on his weekends. He needs to make sure that even when he is working the girls are in his care, that means he needs to make suitable arrangements for them. It would be in his best interest that he does this now before the arrangements are made for him. Then we will be having a different discussion here about how unfair it is that DS doesn't get to see his girls as often as he wants to see them.

I know why he chose to move for his job but he is gong to pay a steep price for this decision, as will his children. They are already suffering the consequences, they see their Dad for limited times on the weekends. There is going to come a day when they will only have limited time for him, their weekends are going to be booked up so he better make use of the time he has, it goes by quickly.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:34 PM   #103
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Folks I am not sure where this derailed. It was TWO Fridays that I picked up the girls. He did not ask me to. SHE did. He came home the next day and got them.

He is seeing his kids every weekend. He cannot get them on Friday if he has to work on Saturday. As soon as he gets home he gets them. Y'all are reading way too much into the whole wrestling thing. He can take them with him or simply stop by the venue on his way home--he has done both.
I do not take care of them for him. I keep them more for her than I do him.

I feel bad for the girls and worry about them. I see them as much as I can. but dd doesn't drive yet and has to be transported where she needs to go. and I have a job plus school.

Ds did not make the choice to live seperatly she did.

I know what its like to be a single mom. I also understand the working away from home. Neither one is easy but sometimes you have to make it work.

All of this started about a weekend she plans to be out of state for a concert. Wrestling has nothing to do with that weekend. Working at a job he needs so that his kids have clothes and food and diapers is the only thing that will make him unable to have them the whole time she is gone.

Taking them with him to work is not an option, finding a sitter near his work is not an option. Quiting his job is not an option. Picking them up Friday evening and having them with him until he leaves on Sunday is the best thing to do and what he will do if he can. But he cannot control the weather and he cannot control what his job requires.

His dad was rarely in his life. he and his brother were rarely a priority to their dad. He would rather be in a bar shooting pool than seeing his sons. I know what an absent father looks like and I can guarantee you this is not it.

He is here right now WITH his daughters. He came home, picked them up, got them something to eat, watched cartoons with them, got their baths and just got everybody to bed. Tomorrow they are going to the park and then they are going with him to the show. Sunday they will go to church and he is planning on the afternoon at the playground before he has to leave fore work. WOW. Wish his father would have been such a "horrible" parent.
You are not seeing this objectively, at all. He works all week. He is supposed to pick them up Friday night and see them a few hours Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday during the day. In your OP you said he has had to work 2 Saturdays and 1 Sunday (I think?) They are with their mother Sunday night through Friday afternoon. It is really very limited hours he has to see them. Those hours are now cut even shorter because of his work and wrestling schedule. You picked up the slack, which was nice of you, but not your responsibility, and I don't think it was to help the ex out, it was because he can't have the children at his bachelor pad, and he was going to bring them to your house anyway, so you just picked them up.

It really doesn't matter who decided to move out, or why. The marriage isn't working, and it always takes 2 to tango. The point is, you asked how your ex daughter in law feels? She probably feels overwhelmed and taken advantage of. He has all week for adult time, and a couple hours on the weekend of wrestling time. She has the kids all week, and since she is living with her parents they have small kids running around the house all week. She, and her parents, probably look forward to some downtime on the weekend. She probably contacted you, because she knows that you are the one that watches this kids on the weekend. ...and really, you have been. Maybe not this weekend, but the last 2 or 3 when he had to work, she probably knows that if she asks him, or tells him that he needs to step up to the plate and have arrangements in place for one complete weekend, 3 weeks away, he will make an excuse. She probably approached you because she thought you were sympathetic. Maybe her parents don't want to keep the kids all weekend, because they are worn out from having them underfoot all week. I have small kids, I know that after a while it's overwhelming, probably especially so for older people who have already raised their children.

It still stands, though, that your son is not being responsible. Part of being a responsible parent is providing an appropriate home and making sure your children are adequately cared for, whether you are married or not.

Turn the situation around. Your son and the kids all live in your house. They are little and underfoot, and needy, because little kids are. She is supposed to pick them up Friday nights and keep them for the weekend, but, now weekend, after weekend, she has picked them up late. Or the next day, or not at all.

Again, the kids are not your responsibility, they are your son's and daughter in law's. They are the ones that need to be adults, work out a schedule, find appropriate housing, and reliable child care.

Again, I'm married. I have a job, I go to school, my husband works crazy hours. Do you know how many babysitters we have had to let go because they were flaky about not showing up. How many times we have had to cancel fun things because we didn't have a sitter or a sitter cancelled? I don't even want to get into how much money we have shelled out to sitters and daycares and preschools over the years. It's life, it's part of being a parent. It's time for you to step back and make these 2 adults responsible for raising the children they made.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:40 PM   #104
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Actually he has every night after work that is not working or with the kids. So I don't think that he only gets 2 hours a week that is not working or with the kids.
yep! AND, he needs to stop the wrestling. 1. It's taking him away from his responsibility as a parent. 2. you said it's making him money...big deal, he's got to parent sometimes. One day a week isn't doing that. I agree, you should stay out of it but you need to warn him that he's going to lose his girls. If I were his wife, I'd be documenting every single thing so I had a case for full custody and very limited visitation. That way, she'll know exactly what she's dealing with. It seems like HE wants a divorce to me. Actions speak louder than words. Again, THIS is why she left. She's giving him a chance to show he cares and he's blowing it totally!
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:45 PM   #105
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So he's taking his little girls to watch essentially backyard wrestling? Is HE one of the wrestlers? Are these girls watching their dad get beat up (or beat up another person)??

Best thing you can do is to try to extricate yourself from the situation as much as possible. Offer what assistance you can when asked and don't feel guilty when you can't. They are the parents and it's up to them to arrange care for their children.

BTW, many people have offered to explain "how she feels so that you can understand" but you don't seemto want to hear it. I don't know what you really want (other than people to side with you and your son perhaps?). Unfortunately it sounds like a crappy situation for everyone involved.
Heavens no. Nothing even remotly like backyard wrestling. Have you ever watched Wwe? Very similar and there are families everywhere. Most of these folks that are working are like family and help watch the kids. They don't see his match. We used to go all the time. I would speak up if there was any problem with it. The only reason they don't see his matches is because he is a "bad guy " and having a smiling face yelling "I love you daddy" sort of throws off the effect.

I asked how she may feel not for everyones opinions of his job and how much he is home.

She is mad because he cannot guarantee to be home that weekend and I can't be there. Wrestling has nothing to do with that. He has already told the promoters he won't be there that weekend.
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