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Old 02-05-2013, 07:46 PM   #46
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If one of my siblings asked me to back off of making a job offer to one of their kids, I would have enough respect for them to do it. I don't blame you for being upset. You asked her to back off of your son, but she did the opposite.

Obviously she did what she knew would benefit her and didn't seem to care about your feelings. I would make up with her, but would not trust her or make the mistake of thinking my feelings mattered to her. You can be nice to people without having a close relationship with them. It would probably be better for your son if you made up with her, since he lives in her place.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:47 PM   #47
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This is my view as well. Which is why I currently choose not to have a relationship with my brother. Fool me once, shame on you . . . fool me dozens of times then shame on me but eventually I will finally learn and set up some personal boundaries.
Been there done that with several relatives.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:04 PM   #48
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It is funny how parents can really influence how siblings get along. My husband and I have had a long-standing on again/off again relationship with my husband's brother and whoever he is married to. The things he did were really reprehensible, (like calling an accounting firm I was applying to work for, and telling them not to hire me.) But we always forgave him for the sake of family. Now he is not speaking to us, and we don't even know why. Through some legal dealings we saw emails he had sent about my husband that were really offensive. My husband's parents both recently passed, and we just don't have it in us to try to keep any relationship with him now. Somewhere in life you decide to give time to those who are worth keeping in your life, and discarding those that are more trouble than they are worth.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:05 PM   #49
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She may have acted selfishly, but your son made the ultimate decision to not take your advice and go work in her restaurant. He may not be in a place in life that you would rather him be in (school/better job), but unless your sister is giving him drugs or otherwise harming him, I would recommend you patching things up with her so that at least you are cordial and bring less friction to the family.

My heart goes out to you as you wrestle with the decision.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:22 PM   #50
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Me, yes. But I'm of the male gender. Wife, probably not.
One of many one-line comments made to stir the pot.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:04 PM   #51
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Overall the experience has been good for my son. Not economically but in terms of confidence. He completely opened that restaurant, creating the menu, establishing relationships with vendors he chose hiring staff... And he runs the place. That's why he works so much. But there is no money to pay him a fair hourly wage. It's a new place and sister went broke opening it. He is not making anything close to a beginning chef's wage. But he still doesn't want to go into restaurant work permanently. This is just a way to stall making decisions.
I didn't cut him off because he went out there. And he had everything he needed. I just was trying to make it a bit less appealing to flounder. I wanted him to get tired of not having nice stuff. My sister may not be paying him a bunch but she bought him a nice used car, takes him to show and gets him into clubs and busy him fancy clothes through connections she has. She has many connections and can get him things that I couldn't. Unfortunately, these things are tempting to my son right now. She is not doing it for her kids unless it's to reward them going to school. This is one of the reasons I asked her not to lure him out there. I told her if he didn't want to cook I wanted it to be hard for him to continue to make foolish decisions.
I think what your sister did was very selfish, manipulative & sounds like she wants better for her own children. She sounds like she is not to be trusted but I think I'd make the phone call to lay this to rest. Even though she didn't listen to your wishes she has given your son valuable experience to take with him if he decides to move on. I wish you all the best because (I would be furious if my sibling didn't listen to my wishes for my own child) I think it's going to be hard to pick up the phone.
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:36 AM   #52
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I seem to be in the minority in my reactions to your follow ups OP, but I will post what I think anyway--maybe just to give you some alternate perspectives to think about.

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My son is find doing what he's doing for now. We had cut him off financially unless he went back to school, learned a trade or made some serious plans that involved his future. And even then we'd only offer minimal support. I know it seems like the issue seems like it's about my son but it's not really. Imagine you did lots of things for a family member and went them and asked them to do you one favor. They responded by doing the exact opposite in order to benefit themselves.
I really do not feel it is appropriate to ask a "favour" which involves asking someone to not help out or hire another adult. It was not your business to get involved in what was happening in your adult son's life int that way and it would have been inappropriate for her to change the offer she made your son because you did not want that for him.

If your son is fine with the situation, why are you so upset about this? You cut him off financially (completely understandable) and he found work and housing that allows him to build skills in a trade he is interested in. I REALLY do not see where there is a problem in this at all

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Originally Posted by Tiggeroo View Post
Overall the experience has been good for my son. Not economically but in terms of confidence. He completely opened that restaurant, creating the menu, establishing relationships with vendors he chose hiring staff... And he runs the place. That's why he works so much. But there is no money to pay him a fair hourly wage. It's a new place and sister went broke opening it. He is not making anything close to a beginning chef's wage. But he still doesn't want to go into restaurant work permanently. This is just a way to stall making decisions.
I didn't cut him off because he went out there. And he had everything he needed. I just was trying to make it a bit less appealing to flounder. I wanted him to get tired of not having nice stuff. My sister may not be paying him a bunch but she bought him a nice used car, takes him to show and gets him into clubs and busy him fancy clothes through connections she has. She has many connections and can get him things that I couldn't. Unfortunately, these things are tempting to my son right now. She is not doing it for her kids unless it's to reward them going to school. This is one of the reasons I asked her not to lure him out there. I told her if he didn't want to cook I wanted it to be hard for him to continue to make foolish decisions.
Okay, so he is "Stalling" making decisions. So what? In the meantime he is able to live without sponging off of you. He is working hard--not couch surfing while playing video games all day or using drugs--WORKING. And, it sounds like he is gaining valuable business skills and experience, that even if he ultimately decides not to pursue restaurant work as a career, will be helpful to him in life and other careers.

He is not making much of an "hourly wage" Is he paid hourly right now? Or salary? It is expected that in a start up business, the main manager or owner will put in very loooooooooong hours and often that works out to a salary that equals very low HOURLY pay. It also sounds like your sister has been able to "supplement" that pay by offering him housing, clothing and entrance into clubs. As a man in his young 20s who is "tempted" by those things, it is liekly that if he were making more money right now in a different situation, he would be spending most of that on rent, designer clothes and clubbing--so at the end of the day it is likely not much difference.

It sounds to me like your son and his aunt have worked out a reasonable arrangement which they are both comfortable with (you said yourself he is fine with it). He is working. He is gaining skills. All of his needs (food, shelter) and many of his wants (clothes, clubs) are covered by his "salary" and the side benefits she offers him.

From what I can tell, you are upset because this is not the path YOU wanted him to take in life and this is not the place YOU want him to be right now. However, HE is fine with it and this is where HE wants to be at the moment (and it IS something productive). You are angry with your sister for giving your adult son the opportunity to follow this path and not making it difficult for him to stray from a path you would have preferred.

From what I can tell, it seems YOU are the one who quit speaking to her over this and now you want her to call and make it better?

Based solely on what is posted here, I think you want to be overly controlling of your son's life and are angry at her for not enabling you to do so.

I really do hope you can move past it and make enough peace to have family gatherings--for the sake of the rest of your family.
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:40 AM   #53
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I think what your sister did was very selfish, manipulative & sounds like she wants better for her own children. She sounds like she is not to be trusted but I think I'd make the phone call to lay this to rest. Even though she didn't listen to your wishes she has given your son valuable experience to take with him if he decides to move on. I wish you all the best because (I would be furious if my sibling didn't listen to my wishes for my own child) I think it's going to be hard to pick up the phone.
I don't see that. She is not buying cars for getting clothes or club entries for her own kids "unless as a reward for going to school"

Are her kids working long hours for her? It does not sound like it. SO basically, she is not handing out this type of thing for no reason--only as an incentive for working hard (at school or a job, etc). It makes sense to me.

I see the OP as manipulative in that she told her son he had to go to school or pay his own way, but when he found a situation which allowed him to support himself through work and a family connection she tried to stop it from happening so that she could manipulate her son into getting a job or going to a school she felt was better for him.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:13 AM   #54
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I don't see that. She is not buying cars for getting clothes or club entries for her own kids "unless as a reward for going to school"

Are her kids working long hours for her? It does not sound like it. SO basically, she is not handing out this type of thing for no reason--only as an incentive for working hard (at school or a job, etc). It makes sense to me.

I see the OP as manipulative in that she told her son he had to go to school or pay his own way, but when he found a situation which allowed him to support himself through work and a family connection she tried to stop it from happening so that she could manipulate her son into getting a job or going to a school she felt was better for him.
I agree with everything you say, in this post and the previous.
One thing that stuck out to me was that the OP's ds was working in a café and learning to be a chef. I'm not sure what the sister's kids are going to school for, but if it isn't anything in the food industry I could see why she would ask the OPs ds to run her restaurant and not her own kids. It doesn't seem like she thought her kids were too good for that, just maybe they weren't right for it.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:20 AM   #55
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I agree with everything you say, in this post and the previous.
One thing that stuck out to me was that the OP's ds was working in a café and learning to be a chef. I'm not sure what the sister's kids are going to school for, but if it isn't anything in the food industry I could see why she would ask the OPs ds to run her restaurant and not her own kids. It doesn't seem like she thought her kids were too good for that, just maybe they weren't right for it.
Exactly!

(and thanks for letting me feel less alone in my view )
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:47 AM   #56
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No she had a son who wanted to go in to culinary work and she told him no. She channeled him into nursing. I agree though. It does sound like I'm being controlling. There is a good deal more here that I can't post but I do agree I'm sure it is why I'm feeling bad over this. I am not the only one who stopped speaking. She hasn't called me since either. I actually thought that people who think I'm wrong are the majority. I am betting that people who understand my feeling have sisters and young adult children. It's so easy to say let your kids screw up. Much harder to do it. Remember I supported his decision to put of school and pursue his band full time. I just figured he'd gotten that type of thing out of his system. I'm envisioning him at 30 needing to go back to school and dh and I planning retirement and unable to help him. Around here there are plenty of ten dollar an hour cooking jobs but very few chef jobs especially if you do not have culinary degrees. It's a very hard way to make a living. Many of those people get government assistance and are often hard working and talented.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:12 AM   #57
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No she had a son who wanted to go in to culinary work and she told him no. She channeled him into nursing. I agree though. It does sound like I'm being controlling. There is a good deal more here that I can't post but I do agree I'm sure it is why I'm feeling bad over this. I am not the only one who stopped speaking. She hasn't called me since either. I actually thought that people who think I'm wrong are the majority. I am betting that people who understand my feeling have sisters and young adult children. It's so easy to say let your kids screw up. Much harder to do it. Remember I supported his decision to put of school and pursue his band full time. I just figured he'd gotten that type of thing out of his system. I'm envisioning him at 30 needing to go back to school and dh and I planning retirement and unable to help him. Around here there are plenty of ten dollar an hour cooking jobs but very few chef jobs especially if you do not have culinary degrees. It's a very hard way to make a living. Many of those people get government assistance and are often hard working and talented.
I totally understand your feelings. I think each parent tries to do the best for their children and works to provide the best life possible for them. It appears you were doing that by encouraging your DS to continue with college. Your sister had no place interfering in your hopes for your son. If it were just your son making the choice and deciding against college that would be one thing, however, having your sister bribe him to do something for her is another. Would she have been understanding if you talked one of her children out of attending college?

I don't know what I'd do about your sister, but I would not give up on my DS. I would continue to taut the advantages of going back to college. Since he's worked minimum wage for a while, he may be more open to the idea.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:26 AM   #58
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No she had a son who wanted to go in to culinary work and she told him no. She channeled him into nursing. I agree though. It does sound like I'm being controlling. There is a good deal more here that I can't post but I do agree I'm sure it is why I'm feeling bad over this. I am not the only one who stopped speaking. She hasn't called me since either. I actually thought that people who think I'm wrong are the majority. I am betting that people who understand my feeling have sisters and young adult children. It's so easy to say let your kids screw up. Much harder to do it. Remember I supported his decision to put of school and pursue his band full time. I just figured he'd gotten that type of thing out of his system. I'm envisioning him at 30 needing to go back to school and dh and I planning retirement and unable to help him. Around here there are plenty of ten dollar an hour cooking jobs but very few chef jobs especially if you do not have culinary degrees. It's a very hard way to make a living. Many of those people get government assistance and are often hard working and talented.
Well, lets say you are right and he decides to go back to school at 30. The aid rules would allow him to fund differently than if he was under 24. Very different situation, and you --unless you chose to--would not be part of the equation. Lots of good information on student aid rules out there.

I don't come from the school of "let your kid screw up." I do tend to listen, and not overly judge their decisions.

Currently, many young adults aren't having an easy time of it. (I'm talking about from the age of about 23-33.) They really have to work hard, be flexible, and sometimes deviate a little from their "chosen" path.

Both of mine have good jobs, with benefits, but that didn't happen overnight.
They both started (with degrees) part time, no benefits. Those jobs slowly worked into full time some benefits, and then (finally!) promotions with great benefits.
I have known parents who are really "against" part time...but sometimes that is one of the few ways to get a foot in the door.
My adult children's jobs are different than their degrees and earlier plans, and that's OK. People grow and change, adjust goals to current situations, learn to recognize opportunity rather than waiting and hoping for it to just appear. It has to be their call. Their life, their jobs.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:44 AM   #59
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I totally understand your feelings. I think each parent tries to do the best for their children and works to provide the best life possible for them. It appears you were doing that by encouraging your DS to continue with college. Your sister had no place interfering in your hopes for your son. If it were just your son making the choice and deciding against college that would be one thing, however, having your sister bribe him to do something for her is another. Would she have been understanding if you talked one of her children out of attending college?

I don't know what I'd do about your sister, but I would not give up on my DS. I would continue to taut the advantages of going back to college. Since he's worked minimum wage for a while, he may be more open to the idea.
The DS left school to "find himself" according to the OP. People who don't that, are people who aren t sure about their own hopes and dreams. If he was truly committed to going back to school because he knew what he wanted, he wouldn't have been able to be "bribed". Maybe him working for his aunt is part of himself finding himself.
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:18 AM   #60
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who you believe did something very upsetting to you in order to restore peace in your family? This family member hurt me and I used to be very close to them. I do believe they are wrong and made it worst by the way they handled things. But my parents are getting older and my mother is saddened by it all. I also have a nephew who is fighting cancer and my brother would like solidarity. This rift has spread to another sister who is not speaking to this person either. Probably if I repaired it she would to and I guess everybody would be happy.
I would say YES. I would restore peace.

In my experience, when family members stop speaking, there is usually more than one solitary event that led to the separation of sorts. For example, my sister and I always had some sibling rivalry. She's older and always had some resentment toward me because I was "mommy's favorite" according to her. As we got older, she was sort of the ugly duckling/loner and I was just the opposite. We still loved each other and I never imagined we'd stop speaking, but one day during an argument (over the phone) I called her the "B" word....and that was it. She cut all ties and it's been years since we've spoken.

So, I can tell people, "She stopped speaking to me because I called her a B," which is a fact. However, there's an underlying history. I never "did" anything to her or wronged her in any way. She obviously grew up with a lot of anger and resentment towards me, and that argument was just the straw that broke the camel's back for her, I assume. I think it's all very silly and petty. However, I wasn't the one harboring the resentment. Obviously, she feels she has valid reasons for ending our relationship.

It wouldn't be so bad if we just stopped speaking and that was the end of it. It's not that easy though. The whole family is affected because everyone has to watch what they say or they feel like they do. She's had a child now that I don't know and it's all very unnecessary really. She is closer to our mother (way closer) than I am, but I can imagine it's going to be very awkward when she gets old or ill. It's ironic that she resented me for being "mommy's favorite" and now she and my mother are best buds.

Now, I do have a brother who stole from me and I cut ties with him. He's much older than me and I grew up watching him do drugs, go to jail, etc. None of that changed how I felt about him, but when I opened up my home to him and he stole my video camera that had a tape with my baby's first steps, first birthday, etc. on it....that broke my heart in more ways than one. Several years went by without us speaking, but I got over it. Not completely. He's not welcome in my home and he's not part of my life, but that has to do with his lifestyle more than what he "did to me." I'll speak to him if I see him, give him a hug, tell him I love him. That's about it.

That's a complex question with no simple answer, really. Being the one who was cut off and the one who cut someone off, I still think making peace in some way is the best choice for everyone, especially yourself.
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