Advice about HIPAA issue

[Disney Doll]

Originally Posted by badblackpug

This won't end well for her son, no matter what happens. Whether she approaches the mother, or whether she requests the records, or both, he is still going to be the kid that tattled to mommy. It's already out there that he is a "baby" and a "snitch." It's just going to keep snowballing. Unfortunately, that is how teenagers are.

The issue I have, here, is that everyone automatically believes the mother did it, and is, basically, adopting a "guilty until proven innocent" stand. They are judging the mother (without knowing her) based on the actions of the daughter. Everyone is assuming this woman is some sort of horrible person, might she be? Yes, but she might also be a perfectly normal parent to a perfectly normal teen girl, who has no idea what crap her little princess is spewing at school.

I get everyone's desire to always defend and believe your kids. I get feeling angry because your kid is hurt. As a parent, I would hope that another parent would give me the benefit of the doubt and have enough respect for me, as an adult and parent, to have a civilized discussion. I know on the Dis there is a higher than average percentage of gifted and perfect children, but having been a teenaged girl, and having a teenaged girl, I know how they can be. I would hope that a reasonable parent wouldn't, automatically, assume I was a horrible person based on my teenaged girl, acting like a teenaged girl. Just think how you (general you) would like to be treated in this situation. I would much rather a parent approach me, than make trouble on my job.

There are 3 sides to every story, this one included. What the OP's son says, what the girl says, and the truth, which is probably somewhere in between the 2 stories.

No not everyone is assuming the ER MD Mom is guilty. However, because I work with the IT department at my institution I will tell you that it is not unheard of for some very smart people (ie-MDs, RNS) to do some very stupid things like accessing records that they have no business accessing. So as an IT person would I assume she's guilty? No. But I would be required to investigate.

People are advising the OP to request the information to determine who accessed the records and then go on from there. It's a step-by-step process.

You would feel comfortable discussing it directly with the ER MD Mom without any kind of proof other than "your kid said this to my kid". In my opinion, that would just make it worse for the OP's son at school, because then the girl will come back to school and say "Billy told his mother what I said about his CT scan and she told my mother and I got in trouble for saying that".

IMHO, it's much better to utilize the avenues available to determine if one has and issue before one starts talking to anyone about anything. So we start by getting a list of people who accessed the record. if the ER MD Mom's name is on it, we take the next step, which would be asking her how she was involved in the direct care of this patient. And so on.

I understand your desire to defend our medical colleagues, but I am quite sure that since you & your DH are in the medical profession that you both know medical people who behave in a less-than-professional manner. I know I do, and it is always very disheartening when it happens.

If there is no indication of ER Mom MD accessing the chart, the matter is closed, the OP says to her son "She didn't look, teenage girl is just mouthing off, ignore her" and life goes on.

[DisneyATlast]

Originally Posted by badblackpug

Oh, I'm fairly certain the son already knows. The OP has said he is "upset about her viewing the records." I'm sure human nature, being what it is, the OP has already informed her son, if he didn't already know, that people can't just access records. ...an I'm also sure, teens being what they are in real life, but of course NEVER on the Dis, that there has been a lot of back and forth and gossip and talk among the parties.

It's a big peeing match and adults have allowed themselves to be drug into children's drama. "My mom saw the records you're a baby and faking it." "She's no allowed to look at the records, she could lose her job, we are going to report it." I know everyone will swear their angel didn't or wouldn't or couldn't feed into the drama, but i'm pretty sure, being all normal kids, it's going back and forth.

...and as I said before, what I would hope, as a reasonable adult, is that if my little princess were going around saying crap that could make me lose my job someone would step up and inform me, not just take the attitude that I get what I deserve because my child is acting like a little witch, and that must, somehow, be my fault.

Sometimes the best way to end drama is to just let it die, and let the kiddies move on to this week's drama.

We're obviously on the same page. As some have suggested, maybe it's because we are nurses and can "relate," but there are other people who have identified themselves as nurses who have the opposite view so it's not just because we're nurses. Besides, suggesting that it's because being a nurse makes it easy to relate implies that, "If you looked at someone's record then you wouldn't want to be reported." I would never do that. Ever. So, being in Dr. Mom's shoes has no impact at all on my opinion. Zero.

I was a teacher before I was a nurse. If a parent heard that I had said something inappropriate or did something inappropriate to their child, I would hope they would talk to ME first before contacting the principal or the Superintendent. That would be the logical thing to do in my opinion. Apparently, I (or we) are in the minority as far as that thought process goes.

Furthermore, I am with you in that I think the best scenario is to let the drama die. I don't see any scenario (contact the mom or contacting the privacy officer) helping the son/victim's situation in any way at all. If anything, it will make an already bad situation even worse. Chances are that these classmates have already put this behind them and moved on to the newest drama. The only outcome that I can see is bringing a dead situation back to life in this kid's world.

In the end, it's a personal choice as a parent. Only the OP can make that choice. Some kids are bullied and their parents go to the school, talk to the principal, meet with the "bully's parents" etc. because they want it to stop and they want "justice." Other kids are bullied and the victim's parents don't do anything. That's not because they don't care, but most often (from both personal and professional experience) because they are more concerned about the social impact on their child than they are concerned with getting justice. Neither approach is WRONG. They are just different. I personally care more about how my actions are going to impact my child's emotional/social well being than I care about getting justice. It wouldn't matter to me if a bully "got away" with being a bully or even if a doctor "got away" with looking at a record if doing nothing meant that my child could move on from XYZ situation with the least amount of stress.

I also find it interesting that so many people are willing to believe that Dr. Mom violated HIPAA, but at the same time they are adamant that a Privacy Officer is bound by laws that will obligate them to treat her inquiry with the utmost level of confidentiality.

[sam_gordon]

Originally Posted by DisneyATlast

I was a teacher before I was a nurse. If a parent heard that I had said something inappropriate or did something inappropriate to their child, I would hope they would talk to ME first before contacting the principal or the Superintendent. That would be the logical thing to do in my opinion. Apparently, I (or we) are in the minority as far as that thought process goes.

I think there's a difference though. With you as the teacher, you have a relationship with the student already. I would agree if a teacher said something "out of place" about my child, I'd talk to the teacher. If a stranger (which is basically what Dr Mom is) said something, I don't see going to them.

I also find it interesting that so many people are willing to believe that Dr. Mom violated HIPAA, but at the same time they are adamant that a Privacy Officer is bound by laws that will obligate them to treat her inquiry with the utmost level of confidentiality.

I agree with you. This is why I don't Dr. Mom should be mentioned when talking to the privacy officer.

[Pea-n-Me]

Originally Posted by DisneyATlast

I also find it interesting that so many people are willing to believe that Dr. Mom violated HIPAA, but at the same time they are adamant that a Privacy Officer is bound by laws that will obligate them to treat her inquiry with the utmost level of confidentiality.

Reading through the most recent comments, this is a concern that I have for Dr. Mom, also. That is, her professional reputation if the accusation was made up by her teen. Word spreads. And it may not just be by a Privacy Officer. (Never heard that term before myself, so yes, every institution is different in their set up and practice.) It could be simply by the Mom herself venting to a colleague, or a manager involved, etc. (And managers do get involved.) That somehow doesn't seem fair if Dr. Mom is innocent.

Disney Doll, in your scenario

Originally Posted by Disney Doll

If there is no indication of ER Mom MD accessing the chart, the matter is closed, the OP says to her son "She didn't look, teenage girl is just mouthing off, ignore her" and life goes on.

I would take it one step further and let Dr. Mom know what has been said. I would be furious if I found out my teens did something stupid like that that could damage my professional reputation and potentially affect our livelihood. I'm sure she would want to know.

I remember when I was growing up there was a doctor in town who had a loudmouth mom working for him, and everyone knew people's personal medical info because of this person. Even then, I felt that was so wrong, and would never set foot in that office myself. Things have changed a lot. Even more than a couple of decades ago, when electronic communication began in hospitals (or I guess I should say in my hospital), it was far more common for nosey people to look things up willy nilly. Over the years I saw many people reprimanded for it. Now, it is rare, in part, as I said before, because of staff education on the issue. Everyone working in the hospital who has computer access (which is everyone, really) has to do mandatory electronic education about Privacy so there is no ambiguity about it whatsoever.

I will also say that, at least where I work, that has also translated into privacy in verbal communications also, so that even speaking about a patient's medical issues are frowned upon, other than in the care of the patient. I, personally, am very often involved in other patients' care where I am not the primary nurse, but helping a colleague. Because everything we do is electronically recorded, such as with medication storage units and medicatiion administration systems, it would be fairly easy to see what I was doing accessing someone's medical record, as there would be an electronic trail of interactions all around the same time and related to eachother. It is so ingrained in us, it is something I think of every time I enter my key in an electronic record, which is literally hundreds of times per shift. Everything we do now is recorded, and Dr. Mom is well aware of this also. (A teen would have very little idea about it.) I doubt she would be stupid enough to randomly access the OP's son's medical record if she wasn't directly involved in his care, it being a serious professional violation.

[sunshinehighway]

Originally Posted by DisneyATlast

We're obviously on the same page. As some have suggested, maybe it's because we are nurses and can "relate," but there are other people who have identified themselves as nurses who have the opposite view so it's not just because we're nurses. Besides, suggesting that it's because being a nurse makes it easy to relate implies that, "If you looked at someone's record then you wouldn't want to be reported." I would never do that. Ever. So, being in Dr. Mom's shoes has no impact at all on my opinion. Zero.

I was a teacher before I was a nurse. If a parent heard that I had said something inappropriate or did something inappropriate to their child, I would hope they would talk to ME first before contacting the principal or the Superintendent. That would be the logical thing to do in my opinion. Apparently, I (or we) are in the minority as far as that thought process goes.

Furthermore, I am with you in that I think the best scenario is to let the drama die. I don't see any scenario (contact the mom or contacting the privacy officer) helping the son/victim's situation in any way at all. If anything, it will make an already bad situation even worse. Chances are that these classmates have already put this behind them and moved on to the newest drama. The only outcome that I can see is bringing a dead situation back to life in this kid's world.

In the end, it's a personal choice as a parent. Only the OP can make that choice. Some kids are bullied and their parents go to the school, talk to the principal, meet with the "bully's parents" etc. because they want it to stop and they want "justice." Other kids are bullied and the victim's parents don't do anything. That's not because they don't care, but most often (from both personal and professional experience) because they are more concerned about the social impact on their child than they are concerned with getting justice. Neither approach is WRONG. They are just different. I personally care more about how my actions are going to impact my child's emotional/social well being than I care about getting justice. It wouldn't matter to me if a bully "got away" with being a bully or even if a doctor "got away" with looking at a record if doing nothing meant that my child could move on from XYZ situation with the least amount of stress.

I also find it interesting that so many people are willing to believe that Dr. Mom violated HIPAA, but at the same time they are adamant that a Privacy Officer is bound by laws that will obligate them to treat her inquiry with the utmost level of confidentiality.

The argument could be made the other way also. Why do people believe the doctor would never be so unprofessional and do something to jeopardize their career but think the privacy officer (or other person looking into it) will be so unprofessional that they will gossip and ruin the doctor's reputation?

[Pea-n-Me]

Originally Posted by sunshinehighway

The argument could be made the other way also. Why do people believe the doctor would never be so unprofessional and do something to jeopardize their career but think the privacy officer (or other person looking into it) will be so unprofessional that they will gossip and ruin the doctor's reputation?

That doesn't make sense. The doctor's career is on the line. The "Privacy Officer" will discuss it, or not, as part of his or her job. Who's got more to lose?

[Disney Doll]

Originally Posted by Pea-n-Me

That doesn't make sense. The doctor's career is on the line. The "Privacy Officer" will discuss it, or not, as part of his or her job. Who's got more to lose?

The Privacy Officer has just as much to lose if they chose to discuss an issue outside of what is necessary to address the issue as part of their job.

Scenario #1- The Privacy Officer going to a meeting with human resources to discuss how to handle the reprimand of someone who has violated HPIAA is discussing the case as part of their job. Yes it's being "discussed" but it's being discussed in the context of their role as Privacy Officer.

Scenario #2- The Privacy Officer goes home and calls his/her BFF to tell them how Dr.ER Mom is going to get lambasted because "listen to what she did"....

Scenario #2-Inappropriate discussion of the matter, will be just as detrimental to the Privacy Officer's career as violating HIPAA would be to the MD's career. Both have the risk of losing their job.

[Pea-n-Me]

Originally Posted by Disney Doll

The Privacy Officer has just as much to lose if they chose to discuss an issue outside of what is necessary to address the issue as part of their job.

Scenario #1- The Privacy Officer going to a meeting with human resources to discuss how to handle the reprimand of someone who has violated HPIAA is discussing the case as part of their job. Yes it's being "discussed" but it's being discussed in the context of their role as Privacy Officer.

Scenario #2- The Privacy Officer goes home and calls his/her BFF to tell them how Dr.ER Mom is going to get lambasted because "listen to what she did"....

Scenario #2-Inappropriate discussion of the matter, will be just as detrimental to the Privacy Officer's career as violating HIPAA would be to the MD's career. Both have the risk of losing their job.

Don't disagree. But my point was that in the course of his or her job, the Privacy Officer will be discussing this with various people and that in and of itself could be damaging to Dr. Mom's reputation if it's true. I doubt either Dr. Mom or the Privacy officer would jeopardize their jobs by "gossiping".

[mfd25wife]

As some PP have posted, I would contact the hospitals and get the list. If anyone other than the ER dr, radiologist, etc. who were involved is on it, ask the hospital to investigate why. No one has to accuse anyone. Leave it to the hospitals to look at it. In this day and age of lawsuits, I do believe the hospitals will protect themselves and take the correct course.

I would not ignore it if she did access his records. Why would the child be called anything or treated differently? The hospitals just need to say they were doing audits of records and this one looked odd. If the mom did do it, and I do mean if, it probably isn't the first or won't be the last time. The hospital should be happy to find out because next time, the parent might start screaming lawsuit ESPECIALLY because it's a minor. She needs to know it's not acceptable. I'm not assuming she is, but I don't believe in just letting it slide. If the mom didn't do it, no harm no foul. The OP didn't give the mom's name and didn't affect her reputation or position. Just tell DS it was not true and ignore the girl trying to upset him.

Police departments are cracking down on officers running people through NCIC and state databases unless they have a valid reason to do so. They are not allowed to just be bored and start checking out their friends or neighbors or even their nannies. They would take DH's badge if he accessed someone's records if he had no legal reason to do so. I really don't see this as any different.

[sunshinehighway]

Originally Posted by Pea-n-Me

Don't disagree. But my point was that in the course of his or her job, the Privacy Officer will be discussing this with various people and that in and of itself could be damaging to Dr. Mom's reputation if it's true. I doubt either Dr. Mom or the Privacy officer would jeopardize their jobs by "gossiping".

The big reason posters seem to be against going through the proper channels at the hospital is gossip ruining the doctor's reputation. My point is why assume the doctor is the only one with any professionalism. If the doctor didn't do it, there's nothing to gossip about unless the privacy office (or whoever) is unprofessional and tells everyone what s/he was looking into.

[StitchesGr8Fan]

If the OP asks for a list of ALL the names of anyone who accessed the records, and doesn't say she is looking for Dr. Mom, how is that going to get back to Dr. Mom? The Privacy Officer isn't involved in the school drama. To them it is just another request.

This is getting blown up into a big conspiracy for no reason.

[Buckalew11]

Originally Posted by StitchesGr8Fan

If the OP asks for a list of ALL the names of anyone who accessed the records, and doesn't say she is looking for Dr. Mom, how is that going to get back to Dr. Mom? The Privacy Officer isn't involved in the school drama. To them it is just another request.

This is getting blown up into a big conspiracy for no reason.

That's what I'd like to know. Privacy officer or Dr. Mom would never even know what you are looking for unless you see her name on the list.

[Pea-n-Me]

Why do people assume the hospital is just going to hand over a list of all the people who accessed the chart? Isn't that in itself a violation of HIPPA?

[burnurcomputer]

Originally Posted by Pea-n-Me

Why do people assume the hospital is just going to hand over a list of all the people who accessed the chart? Isn't that in itself a violation of HIPPA?

Because its *your* health information and you have right to ask for a copy of your records and a record of those who have access to it. Its actually a part of HIPPA to protect the pt. and for the pt. to have full access and knowledge (or block) who can and can't see the health information. Privacy and portability are both part of the act. You have right to know where and when and who has seen your info.

[Buckalew11]

People who seem to know say that as a patient, it is your right to know. I have no idea what page this was discussed on but it is back there somewhere.