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Old 01-04-2013, 08:30 AM   #16
pacrosby
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
It would seem that the best way to address the problem is show the 6 year old, and his parents that there are consequences to repeatedly breaking the rules. That is an important lesson since its one that we will need through out our life, and 6 is not too young to learn it.
As far as why his behavior didn't change, maybe the suspension will get the parents to wake up and figure it out instead of letting it continue the way it has.
I don't necessarily disagree with you I just think that suspension is not the way to go. My kids, at 6, would've been thrilled to stay home from school (actually, that's true at any age )...which is why I think suspension is probably best for kids who are truly disruptive or making the school environment unsafe for themselves or others. Pointing a finger doesn't fall into either category.

ETA: and fwiw the parents have no control over the kid's behavior at school. They can tell him not to until their blue in the face but if he chooses to do it, he chooses to do it. And as nchulka points out below, no matter how many times the school says don't do it, you're talking about a 6 yo little boy and 6 yo little boys have a natural tendency to point their fingers and go 'pow pow' AND, developmentally speaking, are still very immature and impulsive. So I guess what they're really doing is suspending a 6 yo little boy for not having better control over himself eventhough he is not hurting anyone. Really????? IDK.... I just honestly don't see how suspending him necessarily changes anything. I think the school needs to think alittle harder here.

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Old 01-04-2013, 08:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
It would seem that the best way to address the problem is show the 6 year old, and his parents that there are consequences to repeatedly breaking the rules. That is an important lesson since its one that we will need through out our life, and 6 is not too young to learn it.
As far as why his behavior didn't change, maybe the suspension will get the parents to wake up and figure it out instead of letting it continue the way it has.
I agree that kids need to learn that there are consequences for breaking rules, however there should be NO rule against using a finger as a gun! That is a totally natural thing for a little boy to do and making a rule against it is as silly as making a rule that little boys shouldn't pick their noses! Drawing a picture of a person holding a gun and pretending your finger or some Legos are a gun are totally natural normal things that should not be banned. There was a story a while back about a little boy that had crazy hat day at his school. He was in elementary and he designed his hat as a tribute to soldiers. His hat had American flags and little soldier men on it. Because some of the little green plastic army men had little green plastic guns his hat was taken by the principle. This countries fear of all things gun related has caused people to loose all common sense!
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:41 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by pacrosby View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with you I just think that suspension is not the way to go. My kids, at 6, would've been thrilled to stay home from school (actually, that's true at any age )...which is why I think suspension is probably best for kids who are truly disruptive or making the school environment unsafe for themselves or others. Pointing a finger doesn't fall into either category.

ETA: and the parents have no control over the kids behavior at school. They can tell him not to until their blue in the face but if the kid chooses to do it, he chooses to do it.
I don't necessarily disagree with you either In this particular incident I have to wonder just how many times the parents have been contacted about the boys behavior since suspension is pretty extreme. We all know parents who ignore their little angel's behavior until it gets to a point where something extreme has to be done about it. Something tells me that parents who contact a lawyer over a 1 day suspension are that type (of course I admit, I could be totally wrong though).

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Originally Posted by nchulka View Post
I agree that kids need to learn that there are consequences for breaking rules, however there should be NO rule against using a finger as a gun! That is a totally natural thing for a little boy to do and making a rule against it is as silly as making a rule that little boys shouldn't pick their noses! Drawing a picture of a person holding a gun and pretending your finger or some Legos are a gun are totally natural normal things that should not be banned. There was a story a while back about a little boy that had crazy hat day at his school. He was in elementary and he designed his hat as a tribute to soldiers. His hat had American flags and little soldier men on it. Because some of the little green plastic army men had little green plastic guns his hat was taken by the principle. This countries fear of all things gun related has caused people to loose all common sense!
Regardless of what any of us think about the rule, it is in place now and if its broken there will be and should be consequences. If its repeatedly broken the consequences should definitely be harsh.

On a personal level I think its silly for such an over reaction because lets face it boys like to pretend to shoot stuff. Having said that, I don't have an issue with acceptable "play" in certain situations, so if a school doesn't want it students to run around pretending to shoot eachother I don't have an issue with it. Do I think a 6 year old should be suspended for it, no. Do I think a 6 year old who cant follow the rules and (presumably) has been in trouble for the same thing prior be suspended, yes.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:43 AM   #19
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The age of the kid has to be considered when trying to determine the best way to address the problem. Suspending a 6 yo? Not particularly appropriate, nor effective IMO.
A lot of schools suspend if they've gone up the 'ladder' - conduct notices, in school suspension, etc. It's totally possible at that age to understand. I think it's completely selling kids short to think that the average 6 year old can't comprehend "We don't do this at school" if his PARENTS are backing up the school rules at home.

Not to mention at that age suspensions aren't just to send a message to the KID but to the PARENTS as well.

Chances are his parents think "Oh, it's just a boy being a boy" or "it's no big deal" which isn't helping that kid at all (obviously) learn that there are situations where certain behaviors are not tolerated. It doesn't so much matter what the child did so much as he kept doing it despite being told no several times - most schools have rules about insubordination.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by luvmy3 View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with you either In this particular incident I have to wonder just how many times the parents have been contacted about the boys behavior since suspension is pretty extreme. We all know parents who ignore their little angel's behavior until it gets to a point where something extreme has to be done about it. Something tells me that parents who contact a lawyer over a 1 day suspension are that type (of course I admit, I could be totally wrong though).

Why should anything be done about a child pointing his finger and saying "pow"?

Regardless of what any of us think about the rule, it is in place now and if its broken there will be and should be consequences. If its repeatedly broken the consequences should definitely be harsh.

How harsh, though? Suspension, expulsion, death penalty? (hyperbole, I know it's not the same thing)

On a personal level I think its silly for such an over reaction because lets face it boys like to pretend to shoot stuff. Having said that, I don't have an issue with acceptable "play" in certain situations, so if a school doesn't want it students to run around pretending to shoot eachother I don't have an issue with it. Do I think a 6 year old should be suspended for it, no. Do I think a 6 year old who cant follow the rules and (presumably) has been in trouble for the same thing prior be suspended, yes.
Certain rules just seem to be there to set children up for failure. Boys WILL point fingers to pretend to shoot. You cannot make them not do it. My BIL refused to get his son any violent toy. They were very hippy dippy, green, tree hugging vegetarians. The child would pick up sticks or use his finger to point and shoot. That's what they do (at this age, anyway. I would not be saying the same thing if the child was 10).
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:49 AM   #21
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A lot of schools suspend if they've gone up the 'ladder' - conduct notices, in school suspension, etc. It's totally possible at that age to understand. I think it's completely selling kids short to think that the average 6 year old can't comprehend "We don't do this at school" if his PARENTS are backing up the school rules at home.

Not to mention at that age suspensions aren't just to send a message to the KID but to the PARENTS as well.

Chances are his parents think "Oh, it's just a boy being a boy" or "it's no big deal" which isn't helping that kid at all (obviously) learn that there are situations where certain behaviors are not tolerated. It doesn't so much matter what the child did so much as he kept doing it despite being told no several times - most schools have rules about insubordination.
Actually I didn't say he didn't comprehend the directive. I said he was a 6 yo boy and 6 yo boys are immature and impulsive. And they tend to like to point their fingers, or a stick, or a crayon, or a lego, and go pow pow. Again the parents have NO control over the boy's behavior at school. (btw I have 3 boys and I'm a fairly strict PIA mother....still, it's not always as easy and straight forward as it may seem it should be)

That said...I missed the fact that the parents are suing. That's interesting and certainly suggests that they may be lousy parents with a poorly behaved kid. Of course they may be good parents with an immature, impulsive 6 yo boy who aren't particularly pleased with the way the school department has handled this. I'm not there. I don't know. I think, to be fair, we need to consider both possibilities (although yes, I realize, the DIS isn't at all concerned about fairness ).

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Old 01-04-2013, 08:51 AM   #22
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Actually I didn't say he didn't comprehend the directive. I said he was a 6 yo boy and 6 yo boys are immature and impulsive. And like I said above, the parents have no control over the kid's behavior at school.

That said...I missed the fact that the parents are suing (sorry, didn't read the article ) That's interesting and certainly suggests that they may be lousy parents with a poorly behaved kid. OR they may be good parents with an immature, impulsive 6 yo boy who aren't particularly pleased with the way the school department has handled this. I'm not there. I don't know. I think, to be fair, we need to consider both possibilities (although yes, I realize, the DIS isn't at all concerned about fairness ).
They are suing to get the suspension removed from the child's record. I don't think they are suing for damages (I could have missed something though).
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:56 AM   #23
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They are suing to get the suspension removed from the child's record. I don't think they are suing for damages (I could have missed something though).
ok...nevermind. That seems perfectly reasonable given the charge.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:00 AM   #24
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Certain rules just seem to be there to set children up for failure. Boys WILL point fingers to pretend to shoot. You cannot make them not do it. My BIL refused to get his son any violent toy. They were very hippy dippy, green, tree hugging vegetarians. The child would pick up sticks or use his finger to point and shoot. That's what they do (at this age, anyway. I would not be saying the same thing if the child was 10).
There will always be exceptions, there will always be kids who will break rules, but that doesn't mean they are there to set children up for failure. I have 3 kids, and while they are not perfect they have certainly been able to understand that there are rules in place and you follow them, even when you don't want to. Kids, even at the age of 6 are capable of understanding -don't play shoot your friend while at school, the same way they know not talk in class, or scream down the hallway.
My dses would use our snorkel tubes as guns long before we allowed gun toys. Now they have an arsenal of nerf guns, and even their own BB guns. They have always known not to pretend to play guns while at school
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:01 AM   #25
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We don't know what the other incidents were leading up to this, so it's hard to say whether suspension was warranted or not.

Just as an example, what if this little boy was being a bit of a bully for months, and his way of threatening another child was to pretend to shoot them with his finger (kind of like "watch out buddy, I'm coming for you next")? Yes, extreme for a 6 year old. But I'm just saying that we don't know what came before, and we don't know what this shooting might represent - it may not be all innocent play.

If indeed it was just innocent play the school has been trying to stop and the kid just keeps doing it, then I don't know - yes he broke the rules, but I think those rules are dumb to begin with.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:03 AM   #26
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I just quickly glanced over the article again, and it looks like the parents are "appealing" the suspension decision and that sounds like through the school board to me not through the courts. Someone with better reading comprehension can correct me.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:07 AM   #27
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he should be expelled and his finger confiscated by the government
Totally...
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:26 PM   #28
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There will always be exceptions, there will always be kids who will break rules, but that doesn't mean they are there to set children up for failure. I have 3 kids, and while they are not perfect they have certainly been able to understand that there are rules in place and you follow them, even when you don't want to. Kids, even at the age of 6 are capable of understanding -don't play shoot your friend while at school, the same way they know not talk in class, or scream down the hallway.
My dses would use our snorkel tubes as guns long before we allowed gun toys. Now they have an arsenal of nerf guns, and even their own BB guns. They have always known not to pretend to play guns while at school
Exactly. Also, it seems harsh to have the "no pew pew hand is a gun play" rule, but it's an early indoctrination into how serious schools take guns and gun play. I think it would be silly to allow gun play when they're 5 or 6 and then arbitrarily decide an age where it's suddenly not appropriate because "it could mean something" - especially when kids as young as 3 and 4 have brought guns to school "to show their friends." I think it would be far more confusing (and difficult for everyone involved) to essentially tell kids that something that was harmless in first or second grade is now SERIOUS BUSINESS in third grade.

I guess I also see as just another thing that you can do at home but you can't do at school. Kids 'know' they can't run around barefoot or naked at school, can't just get up and play in the middle of a lesson, etc. If a child can handle other basic rules that might differ at home, the same expectation should be there for gun play whether it's something "little boys just do" or not.
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:11 PM   #29
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Not allowing a kid to point his finger and say "POW" is not now nor will it ever stop violence in school or guns being brought to school or mentally ill people storming in with guns and shooting up schools. Its not going to fix the problem.

The rule is stupid. The "consequences" are stupid. Plain and simple.

ALL children (especially boys) will pick up a block, a stick, a rock or their finger and say "pow, pow" at some point in their lives of playing pretend. Its called using their imagination! It used to be what we WANTED kids to do.

Kid need to understand that school rules are to be followed and that there are consequences for not following the rules. BUT, there should be some common sense to the rules that are made and that needs to come from the adults.

I find it ridiculous that not one person has ever been shot by anyone and the ultimate reason be "because he was allowed to point his finger and say pow as a kid". Its been because of music and video games--but those are still around (not saying it IS the fault of music or video games), its been said that its because of violent movies--no rules against those, its been said that its a lack of parenting--no new rules/laws about parents taking responsibility for their kids' actions. What new rule do we make and enforce to prevent violence in schools--no pointing a finger and saying POW. Yep. That ought to work
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Old 01-04-2013, 02:14 PM   #30
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never mind
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